Topic: Drowning in 3" of Water or Mud

[bpowell]

I have run more that one Water based session, mostly the party moving from one locale to the other and using a ship.  The characters are normally happy to change from metal to leather based protection.  One time we had a character tell us he had 6 ranks in swimming.  But as the penalties began to accumulate and her realized Exhaustion would be the cause of his death he learned.  The next time he was on ship he ... 'Spend my days NAKED...oh yeah!"

Nothing happened on the trip but the player played the character as an almost total hydrophobic.  Was interesting and great Role Playing.

Many characters can survive a fall into water in armor, but history proves Armored knight can be drown in 3" of water (The Battle of Agincourt)

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Many characters can survive a fall into water in armor, but history proves Armored knight can be drown in 3" of water (The Battle of Agincourt)

The point was not their wearing armor, but being trapped under horses or bodies, wounded or unconscious, face to the ground. The number of people killed by a few cm of water is astonishing, armor or not.

[bpowell]

The account we read at the War College was that many of the French Princes "once knocked down could not rise due to the mud." This was an account by Juliet Barker.  While I have never tried to swim in a breastplate, I have work reproductions, and I would not want to be knocked down in one.  I would be dead due to the next swing, not drown.

[Marc R]

Consider how much fun it is to fall 5' out of a tree flat.. . .you only need to get stunned or KOed for a few seconds to breathe in a lung full of water or mud. . .it may just have been harder to get up in the breastplate, what may have made it fatal was the stunning blow that knocked you out of the saddle, the stunning fall to the ground and being constantly knocked into or trampled when on the ground. And once you start drowning, that just makes something really hard that much harder.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Consider how much fun it is to fall 5' out of a tree flat.. . .you only need to get stunned or KOed for a few seconds to breathe in a lung full of water or mud.

Quite aside from mud, I have personal experience of falling flat on my back in heavy rain, while wearing a helmet closely padded around the faceplate. The armor didn't fill up with water, just the faceplate of the helmet did.

And if the only thing to roll over into is mud, it's as likely to compound your problems as solve them. Water will drain out of the faceplate, mud, not so much.

[bpowell]

Consider how much fun it is to fall 5' out of a tree flat.. . .you only need to get stunned or KOed for a few seconds to breathe in a lung full of water or mud. . .it may just have been harder to get up in the breastplate, what may have made it fatal was the stunning blow that knocked you out of the saddle, the stunning fall to the ground and being constantly knocked into or trampled when on the ground. And once you start drowning, that just makes something really hard that much harder.

Actually, most of the knights were on foot.  Only about 1200 were mounted with the rest (over 10,000 by accounts) were on foot.  But that does not discount being struck with a heave object (Some sharp) and driven to the ground.

[Marc R]

And being on the ground is usually a bad spot in the middle of a mob, lots of people die of suffocation on the ground at things like concerts or train stations without adding weapons, armor or mud/water to the mix.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

A witness, who narrowly escaped murder, insist that the French princes and their knights were taken prisonners and then killed to prevent them from taking up arms during the second onslaught. A wise but ruthless decision (who gave the English a reputation of brutes and liars and horribly complicated their conquest since nobody wanted to be lorded over by them).

Besides this, a man in armor can raise from the ground even in mud. He can’t when he is crushed under the feet or bodies of friends or foes. In some fights, some even died suffocating from the pressure, standing, and could not lump to the ground when dead (eg: Rosebeke battle). It is interesting to note that in those accounts, the mass of fighters that create this pressure is called the “presse” or the “tourbe”. Tourbe litteraly means mud or peat. So it is not inaccurate to say many suffocated in the mud :p

related vid : mobility in armor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlIUrd7d1Q

Split off the "drowning in three inches" to another thread.

A mobility in armor thread could be fun.

[Marc R]

The politics of who writes the history tends to be a complication to many historic accounts.

A mobility in armor thread could be fun.

Feel free to start one.

[jdale]

Besides this, a man in armor can raise from the ground even in mud. He can’t when he is crushed under the feet or bodies of friends or foes. In some fights, some even died suffocating from the pressure, standing, and could not lump to the ground when dead (eg: Rosebeke battle). It is interesting to note that in those accounts, the mass of fighters that create this pressure is called the “presse” or the “tourbe”. Tourbe litteraly means mud or peat. So it is not inaccurate to say many suffocated in the mud :p

This is familiar to anyone who has fought in large SCA battles. Sometimes your helm is more important for keeping from being crushed or stepped on than it is to protect you from weapons.

[GrumpyOldFart]

A witness, who narrowly escaped murder, insist that the French princes and their knights were taken prisonners and then killed to prevent them from taking up arms during the second onslaught. A wise but ruthless decision (who gave the English a reputation of brutes and liars and horribly complicated their conquest since nobody wanted to be lorded over by them).

If you have more prisoners than troops, and are still outnumbered by those trying to get to you to attack, what do you do? Any group, large or small, at best has the ethics it can afford, and often less.

Besides this, a man in armor can raise from the ground even in mud. He can’t when he is crushed under the feet or bodies of friends or foes. In some fights, some even died suffocating from the pressure, standing, and could not lump to the ground when dead (eg: Rosebeke battle). It is interesting to note that in those accounts, the mass of fighters that create this pressure is called the “presse” or the “tourbe”. Tourbe litteraly means mud or peat. So it is not inaccurate to say many suffocated in the mud :p

This is familiar to anyone who has fought in large SCA battles. Sometimes your helm is more important for keeping from being crushed or stepped on than it is to protect you from weapons.

There's a reason why they teach new fighters how to lie down under the shield in such a way that you can be stepped on with little or no damage.

We're only supposed to be pretending to be corpses. 

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

If you have more prisoners than troops, and are still outnumbered by those trying to get to you to attack, what do you do? Any group, large or small, at best has the ethics it can afford, and often less.

Absolutely. It was just easy afterwards for the loyalist french nobility to denounce the English as murderers (and do exactly the same at the battle of Beaugé a few years later and claim afterwards they had the right to avenge their dead at Azincourt).

There's a reason why they teach new fighters how to lie down under the shield in such a way that you can be stepped on with little or no damage.

We're only supposed to be pretending to be corpses. 

That’s why I never go to the stadium. I can’t bring my shield ^^

[bpowell]

That is an outstanding video.

I have never tried to stand in a full set of armor (reproduction or otherwise).  But I know that trying to get up with a full set of motorcycle gear, with the bike on top of me on a nicely plowed track can be a pain.  Add 3" of mud....  Man I would be a goner.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Yeah that, I hadn't thought about that one.... the few who are mounted probably died from blunt trauma, delivered at the hands of a 3/4 ton warhorse in full gear.

 

As for the rest, the fall wouldn't be nearly the danger that being "trodden in" would be, I'd think.

 

[bpowell]

I don't know about a 3/4 tone warhorse, but I have been plowed more than once by a 250 pounds dirt bike.  Let me tell you I think the horse falling on you would be enough (a la Theoden in LoTR).  And being hit by other bikes....well now you know why I don't go to soccer games.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Dead horse + a few cm of water = death trap. If you are caught under it, don’t even roll the dices. Just count the rounds and hope someone will come and save your sorry butt.

[bpowell]

OK, why did I just go to the scene in Animal House when they remoe the dead horse from the Dean's office??