Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Azaizel on November 21, 2007, 10:29:23 AM
-
I am new to Rolemaster and am having trouble finding any information on what levels Rolemaster is designed to remain within? Does the game scale well forever or is level 50 the theoretical 'breaking point'?
-
:o ??? :o The concept that a character would get to lvl 20 before becoming bored with either the character or the campaign, or more likely people move away or game breaks down for one of the many other various reasons is just unthinkable to me. My first game played weekly for 1.5yrs and lvls were 8-10, the gm using in-book experience/lvling system plus bonus exp for roleplaying.
Lvl 25+ stuff is in there, but I never considered it for PC-consumption.
-
Depends it a bit on which RM version.
Some of the older RM2 options contained options that would scale very badly to very high level. Yet those were options from supplements of much lower quality than anything published today. If using core rules and standard options I would say both RMC and RMFRP are stable enough to be scaled up forever.
As a pratical example my friends we had a campaign where the characters were level 20 to 35 without any balance problems.
Still even while the game engine doesn't impose any 'breaking point' I am pretty sure the players would like new characters sooner or later since things become boring when you have done things enough times.
-
High levels can be tricky - not sure about broken. However at around 20th or so you have healers that can cure almost anything in a round and the spell casters are pumping up damage & range so combats are usually much shorter (unless you are fighting a dragon) and quite brutal.
-
I have played in and ran very high level games. They do work, but require extra attention by the GM, particularly with creative spell use.
One of the unadvoidable balances in the game is just how tough Super Large creatures are. You can be 8th level or 80th, a SL foe is HARD to kill, and will get several oportunities to inflict pain, suffering and death on PC's. SL foes with minion is the worse, as it prevents PC's from trying to absorb the brunt of the SL foes attacks while the others hammer on it. Even a fairly low OB SL foe can do considerable harm, including kill, high level PC's.
I had a party of six high level PC's, Thulsa (level 80 something fighter with sorcerer base list and some closed ess), Arden-Tul (close to 90th level rogue Wose with considerable tech items, including a barrier shield from SM2), Tensen (mid level 60 warrior monk who weilded the power of justice), Alashieve (level 90+ fighter with a freaking list of artifacts), Solon (level 51 fighter northman), Will (level 48 or so healer) and Fee (level 100 mage/archmage). All but Fee died in four melee rounds of combat with 16 Major Wights (Fee was not present, and the party engaged in a head on assualt). They could fight the wights and seriously out matched them in OB/DB, but they had no way to counter the 30' radius C cold crits every round. The last to fall was Alashieve on the fouth melee round, and I will never forget the hushed silence at that table. Four years of gaming several days a week with many marathon 11am till 6am the next day sessions, and it was over. If those foes had not been SL, that party would have crushed the wights and fast, maybe two rounds at most.Â
Personally, I was glad. We had a great run, and I was a bit tired of coming up with new challenges for such a group (a group that faced and lost to the Witch King and his minions, then beat him in the rematch, defeated TWO Black Reavers in a single combat, though I dropped three of em in the fight and sorely hurt the other three, including dropping the mage in one single blow, and even had the moxie to try to bum rush Sauron, who captured them all with one spell and had them cast in a dungeon, then possessed and used as slaves before they were freed via Fee regaining control of himself via a will contest with his demon, then having to fight the said demons once they were "pulled" from their bodies, but not before they wrought awesome damage on Lothlorien and before that, Pelagir in Gondor).
That game covered almost a century of in-game time, time travel (twice), a visit to the Undying Lands, crushing the reformed Sauron in the future after it was discovered the crack of doom was a gate and did not destroy the One Ring, travel to the Shadow World (which was a brand new release at the time)...I mean, I worked my butt off on keeping an interesting and challenging story line, something that is much easier with level 1-25th level characters.
lynn
-
I concur with all of the above.
- Some of the old RM2 stuff ( LVL 120 spells, some options... ) was very unbalancing at high level.
- On the whole RM in general RMSS/FRP in particular behaves quite well as you progress in level. Its only problem being finding foes that are challenging... at high level the number of foes that can be sent against a bunch of players is limited. On the other hand, a bunch of LVL 30+ characters is not supposed to go hiking in the countryside dwagon hunting, they are supposed to rule over their own piece of land. ( unless you happen to play in Shadow world... where said bunch of characters is just beginning to become powerful enough to play in the sandbox of the big guys ;D )
- Creative spell using is the worst you will have to face. Especially when you have several spell casters that works as a group.... I've seen a group of Dansart priests slaughtered in a few rounds by a group of 4 players... One Sorceror, one Dabbler, one Paladin, one Wizard, and one or two support NPC ( a Warrior Monk and a Cleric ( Priest of Shaal )... the Death toll was interesting. They had time to prepare, review tactics and coordination... they prepared what they were going to cast for 5 rounds... but by the end of the third it was obvious nobody was going to be alive long enough to need the spells/actions of the 5th round. And all that was with a group of characters around LVL 20. ( the fight was in proportion )
I've also seen LVL 25+ characters flee because they understood that they were unable to kill one of these SL creature before it killed the whole group.
- The really important thing is that after a point you have to be creative in what kind of quest you give your players... the "go to the cave in the wood to clear it of the orc infestation" quest don't work well with high level characters.. the stake has to be higher, and actually the combat has to be, IMHO, something that happens because somebody blundered along the way.
Compared to many games I've played, RM is one that stay intact the longest.
True there's a few cracks at the seams ( OBs over 150 for example ), but all in all it stay quite coherent, when other systems would have completely broken down.
-
I am new to Rolemaster and am having trouble finding any information on what levels Rolemaster is designed to remain within? Does the game scale well forever or is level 50 the theoretical 'breaking point'?
As others have mentioned. Using the core rules, neither RMC nor RMFRP really reach a breaking point.
Instead the GM reaches a point where creating adventures becomes difficult because you end up with a lot of repetition.
In general, I would say that levels 4-20 are the easiest levels to GM for.
RM has a tendency to be rough on very low level characters (though RMFRP is a little better at this overall with just the core rules -- RMC has a couple of options (found in the RM Express book/pdf) that also work to counter this low level weakness).
Between 4th and 20th levels, adventures are exciting and easy to come by. And your 20th level fighter best be wary when dealing with those lowly Kobolds or else he is likely to be hit by a crit and get hurt badly.
Above 20th, it becomes hard to challenge the PCs.
One word of caution though.....
Both RMC and RMFRP (RMC more so though) are balanced in such a manner that spell users require a power point multiplier in order to be able to function at all.
RMFRP has a Power Point Development skill which helps, and RMC has a couple of options (Base Power Points in Spell Law (& RMX) and the Fast PP Recovery option in one of the Express Additions pdfs).
-
combat has to be, IMHO, something that happens because somebody blundered along the way.
This runs true to real life, and the only area RM does provide a sense of realism; one blow can kill you. The cool thing is because of the law of averages, a PC isn't easy to kill in RM, providinga nice balance and keepin the game playable, as frequent PC death isn't everybodies bag of tea. Yet, if you have lots of combats and do not have a game with lots of magic healing available, then you will go through characters. Just how fast depends on just how many combats you like to have each session.
I have many TONS of dead PC's I could talk about and how they died. Ignobably for the most part :(
lynn
-
I have found RM2 to break down at 10th level, RMSS/FRP IMO does not break down and I do not have RMC so I cannot answer. The one week point others have talked about is at low level PC are very fragile. IMO to be considerd average at a skill you need a score 55 in it. That is so you can perform an easy task all the time without fumbling, 55+60[task mod]+roll >5 = 111; sucess. To get arounf this probelm I start char at 3rd to 5th level.
Have Fun
MDC
Edit Note:
The sucess #'s are for RM2, RMSS/FRP I do not know if they changed the #'s in RMC like they did in HARP.
MDC
-
RMFRP does have much better balance at higher levels, mostly because of not using RM2's optional level bonus table found in...what is the new abreviation for Companion II...RMCII (old dog, yes, I know, let it go ya'all). Substitute the set profession bonuses in RM2 and the balance returns, or if you like progressive growth, apply bonuses only till at +20.
lynn
-
IMO a great deal of RM's balance issues and perceived complexity date from RMCII's expension of the skill system, and if it's taken out the back and quietly put down they mostly go away.
-
Really, breaking down is something RM leaves to other game systems.
-
RM doesn't break down.. not really.
However, I've played a spell caster to level 35 or so and its very, VERY hard for the GM to be able to counter creative spell use when each spellcaster have a couple of hundred spells to chose from. Add to that, that while non-spell users doesn't really get much better in OB after 20th level, they have a lot of usefull skills and they too can get spells, when they get tired of pumping dev points into weapons. (A 30th level fighter with Sniping or Ambush is almost a deadly as high level spell casters.)
:)
-
I don't know if it ever really breaks down--never played with very high level characters, but I think the optimal levels for fun are from ~6 to 15. You can be pitted against a fairly wide variety of opponents, the character classes are relatively balanced, and you see significant progression in your abilities with each level gained.
-
We retire characters at around the 23-24 lvl mark, but I do also think that it's probably due to the extra complexity of coherently GMing a high-lvl group ... An EVIL group, I wouldn't retire that early, as it's probably then when it comes of age.
-
We had our longest running group run up to level thirty but then it became really difficult, actually it became difficult when most of the characters had reached level 20 because then it is really hard to assess what powers an enemy is allowed to have to be still beatable but not too easy to be beaten.
So, 20 is usually the end of the line for us ... and at latest by then most have found something else in their lives anyway: grandmaster of an order, ruler of a small or larger piece of land, a mage's tower :-)
-
RMFRP does have much better balance at higher levels, mostly because of not using RM2's optional level bonus table found in...what is the new abreviation for Companion II...RMCII (old dog, yes, I know, let it go ya'all). Substitute the set profession bonuses in RM2 and the balance returns, or if you like progressive growth, apply bonuses only till at +20.
lynn
I thought that was part of the rules? Don't lvl bonuses stop at lvl 10 or 20?
-
oh, and another question...
HOW THE HECK DO YOU ALL PLAY SO LONG AS TO REACH 20+ LVL?!?!?!?!
;D
-
There were tables to take level bonuses over 20. One of the most used was in Lords of Middle Earth Volume I, The Imortals. But even by the rules, a +3/lvl is +60 at level 20.
Our first RM characters, and the most successful I have ever ran, attaining levels over 50, were from MERP. They were all level 10, were MERP ended. In fact, Alashieve had enough exp to be about lvl 18, and when we translated to RM he was able to finally gain those levels. I KNOW one of the main reasons this party lived as long as it did was when the MERP Animist Will was translated, he became a RM Healer. Having a high level healer in the party is twice as nice when you also have enough herbs on hand to heal almost anything anyway.
After that group, the highest I ever GMed a fresh from level one PC was in the mid 30's (a Layman psionist using psi list from SUC). The highest I played PC's was 27th, 23, 18th and all others lower (most dead by 12th). This is of course after Fee, my Godling Archmage/Magician from ye ole days of munchkinism that stemmed out of MERP (actually, Runequest was the first system that made me aware of the advantages of "tweaking").
And then you play EVERY day, with marathon sessions that last 16 hours to three days, straight gaming, with breaks for pizza, and when it is done, we went to Denny's, cause back then it was the only 24hr place to hangout and eat in town.
I'm serious. Play every day.
lynn
-
I wish :(
-
And then you play EVERY day, with marathon sessions that last 16 hours to three days, straight gaming, with breaks for pizza, and when it is done, we went to Denny's, cause back then it was the only 24hr place to hangout and eat in town.
I'm serious. Play every day.
We play every 3 wks, sometimes 4. :(
-
My highest was 28th level and he started at 10th. A marathon 12 hour session every other week for about a year. The next highest is 13th and he started at 3rd.
But it seems the consensus is that the players get bored with higher level characters more often than actually having problems with the game. That and it puts a lot more pressure on the GM to come up with challenges as the PC's become 'global players' rather than simple caravan guards or quests for minor nobles.
-
Same here, the post college, pre children period allowed for play every weekend, one day usually for 8-12 or more hours. . . .
over that period I started 3rd level Harold Miller, through:
Agent Miller
Sub Altern Miller
Altern Miller
Sir Miller
Lord Miller
Champion Miller, the Celedor
Warlord Celedor
And then the game kind of combusted, I beleive I was 33rd level and awaiting a large chunk of experience from killing a Moloch. Even then it took 3+ years.
Even there, the game didn't blow up on breakdowns in RM or the GM/Gameworld concept, it blew up because the "party idea" died. . . the conflicting goals and activities of a handful of 20+ level characters left the GM facing essentially a series of high end parallell solo games, the friction of that situation (Try maintaining timeline continuity with characters powerful enough to send serious ripples in the pond, and able to move around a lot, none of whom want to spend more time in the same frame with each other than it takes to have a conversation.) blew the game up.
alas. . .
-
I too have experienced that high level split via conflicting interest.
The answer is common ground, be it a common goal, common enemy, etc. The hard part is keeping a goal out of reach but tantalizingly close to such high level monsters PC's.
lynn
-
The only trouble we've ever had is coming up with believable, challenging foes for the party once they hit a certain power level. At some point you have to admit that your characters have become a 'major force' in the world and aren't just a band of adventurers. So long as the GM and players are both happy with the effective 'arms race' then you're good.
We've leveled up to close to 20th in more then one campaign. Of course, those campaigns lasted 2+ years in some cases. I, personally, would like to continue until around level 30 some time, but our GM's like to bring things to a close when we get near 20th level because at that point some of us are hitting our 'peak performance' as a profession and feel we would have to start relying on increasingly powerful items for any real feel of 'progression'.
-
As the GM, I LOVE a well developed high level party. I can throw whatever I want at them without worrying about it. If they die, as experienced as they are, the players KNOW they deserved it.
Stress and guilt free since 1983.
lynn
-
I find the scope tends to grow, moving to politics and nations.
Even if you're 30th level, there's only so much you can do to "force" nations. (RM certainly works out where 50 3rd level archers can put a crimp in your day.)
Also, the whole "Problems in two places at once."
If a major demon is approaching city 1, an army is attacking city 2 five hundred miles away, while a growing menace in the north is just getting stronger and stronger. . . .PCs often need to prioritize and not deal with certain things, they can't be everywhere at the same time.
This often is the cause of party combustion. . . .the ranger from the north, the fighter from city two, and the paladin of the church based in city 1 will often just split up due to their difference in priorities.
-
I think the worst mistake I ever made as a GM in Rolemaster was allowing the use of the high character stats from Mythic Greece. Even at low levels, the power level of that campaign was absurd.
I also find that finding suitable enemies for characters above 20th level is a challenge. Oh, these encounters are around, but the appearance of such a creature usually turns into a realm-shaking event.
Also, if you plan on running a high-level campaign in RM, you absolutely MUST have one rule in place: Maximum PC level is 50 + ME stat bonus. This stops the "My character is a 10,000 year old elf" munchkins.
-
But it seems the consensus is that the players get bored with higher level characters more often than actually having problems with the game. That and it puts a lot more pressure on the GM to come up with challenges as the PC's become 'global players' rather than simple caravan guards or quests for minor nobles.
Personally I have never been able to play an RM game at such levels and the only time I levelled up a character from first to any decent level was a dwarf fighter in the-game-that-shall-not-be-named and went al the way to 10th level before being forced fed poisonous food by a robot in a chrashed spaceship (you all know the adventure I speak of....)
That is why I am constantly trying to get people to play/run high-level games as I have never really been able to. And I have been playing for 30 years. Sort of sucks, don't it?!?
It is also why I agreed to join in on a game-that-shall-not-be-named because it was an epic-level campaign and I was playing a 26th level char. I had to drop out because, well the timing sucked: I worked from midnight to 9am, mon thru fri and they wanted to play every thurs from 10-11 am to 9-10 pm. For me to play (and I did for 3 weeks) I would have to not sleep after work on weds/thurs-morning until I got home from work thurs-night/fri-morning. No sleep for over 41 hours! As I am no spring-chicken anymore (as if I ever was), it was too much. And they wouldn't move the game to friday or saturday as they all worked in the service industry (read: restaurant/bar) and those nights were money nights.
I would love to play in an RM/SM game that was in the 20s or 30s for levels. It is practically a dream of mine to do before I die. :o
-
The biggest problem in High-Level adventures as a GM is to present problems that cannot be solved with brute force or spells, since the players at that level can kill just about anything if they put their minds and skills to it.
-
Oh, high level adventures are just the same as lower level adventures, but rather than saving the city form certain doom or stopping a demonic invasion or sending what demon army did make it through the gate before the PC's shut it down BACK to the voidal planes that spawned them, settings like PlaneScape came out, providing the ultimate "but now the entire MEGAVERSE in in danger" adventures for even the ultimate munchkins and power games to find a challenge, and suitable rewards, in. A setting where the players are Gandalf and Aragorn and Gimli and Legolas and Boromir, and not the stinking sidekicks.
It can be great fun with wild things.
lynn
-
Rand, the best advice I can offer is to go over to RPGRM.Com, and run into the recruiting thread, and openly beg someone to run an epic level game. You'd be surprised how often you can inspire a game by asking someone else to run it. . .I'm currently begging someone to run a zombie-survival-horror game of any system/genre. . . been a few nibbles already.
I don't currently have the time to GM it, but you might find a taker.
I suspect you need to keep epic level in mind from the start to make it work as the GM. . .you need a world suited to it, be prepared for it, and have a party concept tight enough to both keep the party together, and maintain at high end. Likely some form of "Agent" would work. (Like, all PCs must be clergy or lay fellows of one church, or something like that.)
-
During my first game of RM(2) the Gm meant for a 1st level cleric to get beat down by an 8th level fighter. unfortunately, he built the cleric a little too well and the cleric beat down the fighter with a quarterstaff. Unfortunately the GM left the Navy and the group only got up to around 8th level or so. A group I ran had an adventure shortened for the same reason, again the characters didn't get past level 10. And my present group is a little fearful of RM, though I got two to set up characters and now I'm off to the sandbox :( ; Ah a year to hone a series of adventures, hope they like them ;D.
Oh, and when I was in the Navy we'd game for about 6 hours a day everyday that we were out to sea ;D. I didn't get introduced to RM until near the end of my first tour :(
Haven't had a chance to try this, but, hows this for a high-level game, kind of...
the PCs end up with issues that are too petty or politically charged for them to deal with directly so they hire a band of low-levels to deal with it (the PCs again).
this gives the high-levels more control in the world, you can slowly open the scope for them while the low-levels do the grunt work. Could lead to some interesting role playing: will the baron send the fighter out on a suicide mission, even though he's playing both characters? Will the apprentice mage tell her master everything she found out? This is easier if players shift roles & become associated under another player; well, the group won't appear to have multiple-personality disorders (or develop them :-\ ).
And when you need the high-levels to deal with the problem, the GM has had more time to craft a better encounter for the high-levels; well, as they can set it up slowly through the low-levels.
Anybody try this already? How did it work out?
-
LordMiller, I will probably try that some time in the future (near-far, don't know yet) though to me role-playing is a social event so I just prefer to be in the same room with those that I play with so we could do all the other interactions that go along with socializing. But, I haven't tried the play-by-post gaming yet, so I don't know how it works out.
Back on topic, the highest level RM character that I have ever played was 7th level. And we did not play long enough to get him to 8th.
Chaman, a group of mine did that sort of thing, but I cannot remember which game it was in....... I am thinking Star Wars (of all games), where I both played a Kid and a Mercenary guy - who always bickered with each other.