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Systems & Settings => HARP => Topic started by: Crypt on October 10, 2007, 07:20:26 AM
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IMO, one of the main issue about spells is that there are too PP cheap.
A lot of them can be cast by a first level spell-user.
I think the PP cost, considering the basic effects of spells, are not balanced enough.
As i said before, look to teleportation spells=> this kind of effect is extremely powerfull, even in a high fantasy setting. Only 4 PP for the basic effect ? That's non sense. (even with the +2 scaling for ignoring obstacles)
I don't have the rule book at hand, i'm at work, but several others spells are concerned. (remind me, what is the PP cost of Invibility ?)
A 4th level spell user (thus with a skill rank limit of 15) could cast any non-scaled spell ever published for HARP, whatever their basic effect.
Think about that => D&D spells levels are more balanced. Isn't it offending ?
This is a MAJOR issue !
Because of that i'm currently wondering if i keep using HARP for fantasy settings or switch to HERO.... :-[
PS: i know, i'm a bit excessive.
PPS: i think Dr_Sage suggestions about Major Healing are wise.
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The base spell costs for HARP spells are broadly similar to the lowest level versions of Rolemaster equivalent spells. The lowest level RM teleport spell is typically Leaving at 4th, which with barrier penetration becomes the 6th-level Long Door. Shock Bolt is available as a 2nd-level spell. Invisibility is 4th. Etc.
It's in the scaling that the spells become more potent and that isn't so easy for low-level HARP (or RM) casters. I don't see your problem
Best wishes,
Nicholas
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This is just my opinion but spells like teleportation and invisibility, even non scaled, are tactical killers.
For instance, what about the nicely crafted tiny old school dungeon you' ve just made or the heavy door of the treasure room of any castle compared to an allmighty level 1 mage who knows longdoor and can even scale it to pass obstacle ?
In D&D (even if i really don't like it), such spells, as far as i remember, are beyond the power of a beginner.
PS: i won't use magical doors which prevent teleportation.
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I split these posts off into this topic because I felt that they were veering strongly away from the old topic, and that the conversation was interesting enough to be continued. ;D
(note: I will make my own post regarding this subject a little later -- have some other things to get done before I can devote the time to make a proper response.)
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Yes some spells can be tactical nightmares, but there are some balances. One is that DP's are limited. A mage has to chose to either cast a wide range of spells, or concentrate on a few but master them. If a mage has a lot of spells with a lot of ranks he has no skills so his viability role playing is severly limited. Second is that when mages get hit they get hurt since they do not wear armor. Also the thing i love is that if your mage has a spell at high ranks so do NPC's. I thing minuses for scailing and casting time greatly balance the PP's for casting. I have had many mages get killed because they tried for a powerful spell to end combat quick and didn't get it when the base version would have preserved his life but the combat would have been longer. Also be familiar with the ways around the spell like opposing mages would. Invisability only works as long as the target does not attack or cast spells also the base version does not include stuff the mage is wearing, and teleporting blind into an area can be suicide.
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A mage has to chose to either cast a wide range of spells, or concentrate on a few but master them.
A 1 st Lvl character could have a wide range of unbalanced spells, that's true.
This does not compensate cheap and powerfull spells effects.
I thing minuses for scailing and casting time greatly balance the PP's for casting.
The basic range of Longdoor is 100'.
Fairly enough to ruin any exploration scenario.
Invisibility only works as long as the target does not attack or cast spells also the base version does not include stuff the mage is wearing, and teleporting blind into an area can be suicide.
he would only have to wait until 2nd Level to be able to cast the +3 scaled Invisibility.
We can say that HARP's spell casters are munchkins.
Ok, that's a matter of taste BUT =>
How can we explain that Darkness basic cost is 7 ?
I see no reason why such a "simple" effect could cost (almost twice) more than a matter teleport. (A Darkness + Dark Vision could justify such a cost, but not Darkness alone.)
Worse => how do you justify that Darkness cost more than Invisibility ?
And Earthen Transmutation for 100 cubic feet => 14 PP :o (isn't it a bug ?)
Darkness is not often usefull and Earthen Transmutation can be emulated by using tools (and a lot of time.)
Teleport is extremely usefull and nothing can emulate it.
(except several billion years of patience or the use of an amazing quantity of energy)
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I think that magic and arms are balanced in HARP (not like in D&D at high levels) because:
- spells don't last a very long time
- spell users have got a poor DB
- with fumbles, magic is very dangerous to use
I' m a master of HARP since 2005 and to me the sessions games are balanced between professions. Spells are hard to cast.
Don't mind the cost for spells...the very important in RPG is the adventure and the atmosphere of the games with a good interaction between master and players. To me a very good adventure IS VERY IMPORTANT!
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I agree the Long door spell is a little nice. Every other system I played teleport is tricky especially when teleporting blind into an unfamiliar area. I reread the spell and remembered that I never liked the scenario of when you teleport into an object you just appear into the nearest free area. At the least I think that the spell does not work and you lose the PP or you teleport into an object. Time to roll up a new chaaracter. The thing about this system is the flexability. If you think that the casting cost is too low make it higher just let the players know your house rules.
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I you find them to powerfull, give them a price to pay. Madness, wikness... I found a very intersting system in a novel by Guy Gavriel Kay : a mage is linked by a ritual with another guy who is his source. He needs him to cast spells. Break the link, no more spells...
Crypt, on te revoit quand sur Iceland ? (In english : Crypt, when will we see you again on Iceland ?)
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The basic range of Longdoor is 100'.
Fairly enough to ruin any exploration scenario.
Sure, you can teleport yourself for 6PPs between A and B. In a dungeon exploration, you don't know where or what B is. You don't know what's also at B or in-between A and B. If you just teleport yourself, you have put your mage into potential and unknown danger. If you can teleport yourself and the rest of your party at the same time (which isn't an option in the base rules anyway), your character isn't a beginner any longer.
Invisibility only works as long as the target does not attack or cast spells also the base version does not include stuff the mage is wearing, and teleporting blind into an area can be suicide.
he would only have to wait until 2nd Level to be able to cast the +3 scaled Invisibility.
And a 2nd-level Rolemaster (RMSS/FRP) character could potentially overcast for Invisibility as well, and a 3rd-level D&D wizard can gain access to Invisibility with a base duration in minutes.
Best wishes,
Nicholas
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what about :
- the huge cost of Earthen Transmutation ?
- Darkness basic cost 7 vs Invisibility basic cost 4 ? (each has advantages and disadvantages but in my opinion invisibility should be at least as costly as darkness)
And a 2nd-level Rolemaster (RMSS/FRP) character could potentially overcast for Invisibility as well, and a 3rd-level D&D wizard can gain access to Invisibility with a base duration in minutes.
i see no reason to reproduce the same mistakes ;)
PS: in AD&D1 and C&C , a mage should be Level 9 to be able to cast Teleport.
This is far more reasonnable than the HARP version. (Please note i'm not a D&D advocate.) (by doing a very simple conversion this would be equivalent to something like 30 PP cost. Obviously you can reply that the scaling options raise the base cost but the real question is => should such an effect be avalaible at the beginning ? )
In a dungeon exploration, you don't know where or what B is. You don't know what's also at B or in-between A and B. If you just teleport yourself, you have put your mage into potential and unknown danger.
This is related to the environnement, not to the spell effect in itself.
And i would not trap every place just to resist the 1st level teleporting mages.
Such characters can steal any merchant.
This leads to put magic everywhere. I really dislike this. :-\
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what about :
- the huge cost of Earthen Transmutation ?
It affects 100 cubic feet of material and it is Permanent. Not rounds per rank, not minutes per rank. Permanent.
- Darkness basic cost 7 vs Invisibility basic cost 4 ? (each has advantages and disadvantages but in my opinion invisibility should be at least as costly as darkness)
Given that anyone who actually wants to keep their clothes and equipment on, needs to scale Invisibility by 3 PPs to 7, then not only is it as costly, but it also starts triggering scaling penalties. That's before disadvantages such as ends early if you hit something or something hits you are taken into account on Invisibility.
And a 2nd-level Rolemaster (RMSS/FRP) character could potentially overcast for Invisibility as well, and a 3rd-level D&D wizard can gain access to Invisibility with a base duration in minutes.
i see no reason to reproduce the same mistakes
You were claiming up-thread that HARP spells are more unbalanced than D&D. I'm merely pointing out that the power difference in categorising spells is fairly minor.
Best wishes,
Nicholas
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Quote from: Crypt on Today at 03:05:16 pm
what about :
- the huge cost of Earthen Transmutation ?
It affects 100 cubic feet of material and it is Permanent. Not rounds per rank, not minutes per rank. Permanent.
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- Darkness basic cost 7 vs Invisibility basic cost 4 ? (each has advantages and disadvantages but in my opinion invisibility should be at least as costly as darkness)
Given that anyone who actually wants to keep their clothes and equipment on, needs to scale Invisibility by 3 PPs to 7, then not only is it as costly, but it also starts triggering scaling penalties. That's before disadvantages such as ends early if you hit something or something hits you are taken into account on Invisibility.
well, maybe you're right.
but i think i will increase the cost of this spells (invisibility, longdoor, shadowport, etc...)
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PS: in AD&D1 and C&C , a mage should be Level 9 to be able to cast Teleport.
This is far more reasonnable than the HARP version. (Please note i'm not a D&D advocate.) (by doing a very simple conversion this would be equivalent to something like 30 PP cost. Obviously you can reply that the scaling options raise the base cost but the real question is => should such an effect be avalaible at the beginning ? )
The 3.5 Teleport allows the caster to move himself and 3 pals (with their equipment) NINE HUNDRED MILES at 9th level. That's a Teleport spell that takes the whole business of travelling around a world and throws it in the dustbin.
30 PPs to do that in HARP? base 4 + 2 for barriers + 12 (for 3 extra targets) + 16 (for 10 miles/rank) = 34 PP of which 30 are scaling so that's a whopping -150 penalty. And you've only got 34 ranks so max distance is 340 miles in the event that the spell works. And your character is 11th level.
Long door isn't Teleport at low levels. It's Leaving. It allows a mage to get a head start on pursuers or transport himself or his pals one at a time across a chasm or a river or whatever.
Best wishes,
Nicholas
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The 3.5 Teleport allows the caster to move himself and 3 pals (with their equipment) NINE HUNDRED MILES at 9th level. That's a Teleport spell that takes the whole business of travelling around a world and throws it in the dustbin.
30 PPs to do that in HARP? base 4 + 2 for barriers + 12 (for 3 extra targets) + 16 (for 10 miles/rank) = 34 PP of which 30 are scaling so that's a whopping -150 penalty. And you've only got 34 ranks so max distance is 340 miles in the event that the spell works. And your character is 11th level.
as i said: "Obviously you can reply that the scaling options raise the base cost but the real question is => should such an effect be avalaible at the beginning ? (a HARP level 1 character CAN teleport)"
Long door isn't Teleport at low levels. It's Leaving. It allows a mage to get a head start on pursuers or transport himself or his pals one at a time across a chasm or a river or whatever.
lol, ok, but travelling from A to C without crossing B IS teleportation.
You may call a 100' teleportation "minor teleport" or "Leaving", it's still a matter teleportation, whatever the distance.
Longdoor IS Teleport even at low levels.
It seems what you would call "Teleport" is a strategically scaled effect (long distances) but, you should take into account that on a tactical scale even a very short range teleportation is a very powerfull effect.
It doesn't fit in every settings. If you consider heroic fantasy litterature this kind of power is pretty rare amongst newbie mages (except by the use of magical items.)
I think my longdoor will be at least a 15 PP base cost spell.
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Off-topic: Could you please stop editing your posts hours after you've made them? It makes it difficult for people to know what they are replying to and twice now I've had the experience of starting a reply quoting one of your posts and discovering half-way through that there is new content in the quoted material that I have not seen.
Yes, Long Door is technically Teleport on a very small scale. But tactically it's not that big a deal. Moving a 100' by HARP Long Door is a full-round action, so you can't Long Door around a battlefield and strike someone in the same round. You can send someone else to do that but then you can't get them back if you've put them in harm's way.
As to whether it should be available at 1st-level, I don't have a problem with that. For your world, you have to decide whether magic is common or not. If it's common, then there will be magical safeguards against thieving mages where warranted, because just as there'll be mages with criminal leanings, there'll be mages who believe in obeying and enforcing the laws. If it's rare, then mages will either have better things to do than pilfering petty shopkeepers or society will distrust magic users and strange happenings will be deemed witchcraft and evil and there'll be persecutions against people merely suspected of being magic users.
Best wishes,
Nicholas
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Could you please stop editing your posts hours after you've made them?
sorry :-[
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First of all: it is VERY very risky to use Long Door!
LOS & very good known location: 5% chance of missing -> have you ever stucked in the floor or a table or a locker or ....
no LOS and partically known location (ie memorized rest area, memorized landmark for more than 4 hrs) -> 25% chance to miss
no LOS an no known location, but already seen before -> 40%+ chance of missing
no LOS and never seen before -> GM description
these are our houserules for the caster. The casters mates have a higher chance of missing or even they forget concentrating.
And don't forget: deviation increases with distance of Long Door
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Just skimmed all the messages, but I think I missed one important point:
I actually like it when level 1 character's are able to really DO something. This is because I don't play to get anywhere, first grinding through boring, mono-solution adventures to finally achieve something - I play for the fun, and being able to do something IS fun.
I've never player D&D, but maybe the difference between level 1 and level 10 is just bigger. In Harp, you flesh out your character, specialize, know some spells or skills even better than before, but you get the overall character concept through at the very beginning.
No need to work for it. Personally, I think it's a good thing. There are enough things in life you have to work hard for, playing games shouldn't be one of those (BTW, that's what I HATE about the online MMORPGs. You SO suck at the beginning).
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PPS: i think Dr_Sage suggestions about Major Healing are wise.
Thanks !
Dear Crypt,
I do believe taht you have some good points specially regarding Earthen Transmutations. I agree that some spells are way too expensive compared to others. Probably darkness is a good example as well.
But its the way HARP works. A 1st level spelll is supposed to be good. I compare HARP Spell Systen with a X-Men like system. Every caster usually is good at half dozen spells and thats it.
Wanna see balance havoc?
Air Form: A 3th level caster can:
1) Be imune to most ordinary attacks;
2) Be imune to most "Indiana Jones" style traps;
3) Levitate;
4) Pass trough doors, keyholes etc.
5) Yes, he cas cast spells.
This guy can explore the "Goblin Lair" all by him self. >:(
But how to deal with this without messing way too much with the rules?
Sage House Rule (unofficial):
"I do require prerequesites for some spells, usually other spells or at least a minimun level."
This is done to avoid making arms-race with the players. I hope that helps you.
PS: I particulary don?t think Long Door is unbalanced. If we look at DnD, you must compare to "Dimension Door" not "Teleport". ;)
PPS: janpmueller has a point. We suck in MMORPGs at lv 1, and usually become Gods ate max level.
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One more point. To learn a spell, you can require the PC to have a mentor, or some teacher. If he learns them by himself, then give him a penality (just like for the untrained shield).
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Given that anyone who actually wants to keep their clothes and equipment on, needs to scale Invisibility by 3 PPs to 7, then not only is it as costly, but it also starts triggering scaling penalties. That's before disadvantages such as ends early if you hit something or something hits you are taken into account on Invisibility.
The fact that it doesnt include clothes or weapons is something essential to remember - from memory the invisible character cant even draw a sword if the spell is only scaled by 4PP anyhow. Coupled with the shorter duration, invisibility is not that powerful in HARP and has a very different flavor to what it does in other RP games imo (I remember invisibilitying the thief and having him scope out the whole soon-to-be-raided fortress in my pre-HARP days)
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Once of the design concepts behind the spells in HARP is that a caster can learn the basics of a spell/spell effect early on, and then it takes time and effort (i.e. DPs) to become fully proficient with the spell.
As others have pointed out, the way HARP is designed, you can either become very proficient in a few spells, or learn the basics in a larger number of spells.
As was also pointed, every PP invested into casting a spell above its base cost, gives a negative modifier to the spell, making it more and more likely that the spell will fail.
You mention darkness having a higher cost than invisibility. Yes, it does. But then again, Darkness affects an area, a radius, while invisibility affects a single person (no items) and has a number of conditions that will very easily cancel it before its duration expires (again, something that darkness does not have to contend with).
You mentioned moving to Hero... The spell creation rules for HARP were inspired by Hero. And guess what? Go create these two spells (Invisibility & Darkness) using the Hero rules, with all of the same limitations and aspects as these 2 spells have, and guess what you will see? Darkness will cost more than Invisibility.
Another spell that folks have issues with is the Light spell, saying that it is too expensive. Problem is, if it were repriced according the rules in CoM, it would come out MORE EXPENSIVE than it is now. The spells in the core rules were priced according to a prototype of the rules that were codified in CoM, and the core rules were subject to tweaking as well (usually to lower costs).
You mentioned increasing the costs of the spells. The question is why? And what is your reasoning for how much you wanted to increase the costs? The PP costs were derived from a set of creation rules, arbitrarily changing those costs would be unfair to your players, I think.
A much better solution is to just not make them available. Take a look at the professions in College of Magics. They are all Mages, but they do not all have the same spell lists for the their Sphere. In Cyradon, there are other Mage variants, and each one there does not have the same spells on their lists for their Spheres.
Do the same thing for your setting. Create magical orders, and have each order have a specific list of spells within their spheres and each variant does not have all the spells and each variant has different spells.
Or just create 1 order, but give it several levels of membership. Thus, beginning mages might have only 10-20 spells to select from. Once they hit 6th level, they are promoted to the next ring, and get an additional 5 spells added to those that they are allowed to learn, when they hit 15th level, they get promoted to the next rank within the order and get access to even more spells, etc...
What I am saying, is to not change the costs, but to change the availability and to work that availability into your setting through a logical reason.
If you think that mages shouldn't learn Long Door until 6th level, that is fine, then make sure it isn't available until 6th level, but don't just slap an additional PP cost on it just because you don't its current cost.
The spells in HARP are balanced, against one another and against the rest of the game. You might not like the way it is balanced in some cases, but that does not make its balance wrong. HARP was trying for some very specific goals and I think that it did well and met them.
However, that balance and those goals will not be identical for everybody. Nor will it be perfect for everybody. That was one of the reasons that we made HARP so flexible and easy to change without disrupting the overall balance.
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You mentioned moving to Hero... The spell creation rules for HARP were inspired by Hero. And guess what? Go create these two spells (Invisibility & Darkness) using the Hero rules, with all of the same limitations and aspects as these 2 spells have, and guess what you will see? Darkness will cost more than Invisibility.
lol
;D
You mentioned increasing the costs of the spells. The question is why? And what is your reasoning for how much you wanted to increase the costs? The PP costs were derived from a set of creation rules, arbitrarily changing those costs would be unfair to your players, I think.
i'm thinking about another radical solution : in a low magic setting, every PP costs could be multiplied by 2 or so (even scaling PPs.)
Magic can be hard.
Spell users would be less powerfull (compared to arms users) but i think there is no good reason to balance magic and arms classes (except for those of a video game.)
EDIT: maybe a bad idea.
A much better solution is to just not make them available.
That's what i'm currently doing for teleportation spells (only) and i don't like that.
IMHO complex magic is not only a matter of parameters but also a matter of basic effect.
What I am saying, is to not change the costs, but to change the availability and to work that availability into your setting through a logical reason.
i would prefer a "magical-physic" reason than a social/background one.
But, well, i see what you mean.
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You mentioned moving to Hero... The spell creation rules for HARP were inspired by Hero. And guess what? Go create these two spells (Invisibility & Darkness) using the Hero rules, with all of the same limitations and aspects as these 2 spells have, and guess what you will see? Darkness will cost more than Invisibility.
i had to verify that....
i may make mistakes but it seems you're wrong:
(HERO 5th)
Darkness
100 m range
constant (basically Invisibility is constant too so i don't need to change the duration)
EDIT: in order to emulate the fact that HARP's Darkness base duration is twice as long as Invisibility's, we can apply a Reduced Endurance modifier (Half END cost: +1/4).)
2 m radius
10 active points (sight)
no range -1/2
=====> 7 points
EDIT: with the Reduced Endurance mod =====> 8 points
(10*(1+1/4))/(1+1/2)=8
Invisibility
self range (ranged : +1/2 but it would totalized a huger range than the Harp version and because HERO invisibiliy includes clothes i simply ignore range advantage & clothes limitation)
constant
20 active points (sight)
no fringe => +10 points
Only when not attacking -1/2
======> 20 points
Teleportation
self range (ranged : +1/2 but it would totalized a huger range than the Harp version)
instant
100'=> 30 points
must pass through intervening space => -1/4
====> 24 points
Because these are all spells there is no need to take "spells limitations" into account here.
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Darkness -- you need to add +10 points for an additional hex radius (one Hero hex is not 10' across) and sight is a targeting sense.
Invisibility -- drop the "No fringe", HARP invisibility has fringe.
10' range, I would make be a "Limited Range" at +1/4 and the no clothing would be a limitation of -1/4 I would say.
So actually, with 5th edition they would be about the same cost for the base spell. (note: I was most likely thinking 4th edition and/or using Change Environment to make the darkness...)
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Darkness -- you need to add +10 points for an additional hex radius (one Hero hex is not 10' across) and sight is a targeting sense.
5' radius=> 1.5 m
1 hex= 2 m
Base radius of the HERO Darkness = 1 m. (because it fills 1 hex.)
Adding +1 hex would result in a 3 m radius darkness. (1/2 hex + 1 hex)
The basic value for the Darkness effect (1 hex area ===> 1 m radius) is clearly closer to the 5' (1m50) radius of the HARP spell than what you suggest (3 m)
note: about duration , i have edited my post and add a Reduced Endurance mod for Darkness.
and sight is a targeting sense.
that's what i've used. (5th edition: Darkness : base level fills 1 hex for 10 points and affect one Targeting sense group.)
Invisibility -- drop the "No fringe", HARP invisibility has fringe.
where is it written ?
(do not cheat ! ;D)
10' range, I would make be a "Limited Range" at +1/4 and the no clothing would be a limitation of -1/4 I would say.
ok, so :
Invisibility :
without fringe:
(30*(1+1/4))/(1+1/2+1/4) = 21
with fringe:
(20*(1+1/4))/(1+1/2+1/4) = 14
So, at best (?) we obtain :
Darkness: 8
Invisibility: 14
Teleport: 24
So actually, with 5th edition they would be about the same cost for the base spell. (note: I was most likely thinking 4th edition and/or using Change Environment to make the darkness...)
i don't know the 4th ed.
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5' radius=> 1.5 m
1 hex= 2 m
Base radius of the HERO Darkness = 1 m. (because it fills 1 hex.)
Adding +1 hex would result in a 3 m radius darkness. (1/2 hex + 1 hex)
;D
I always thought Hero hex = 5' or so. oopsey then.... 5' radius = 10' diameter (3 hexes across for 1 meter hexes).
page 75 gives the mods for seeing somebody who is invisible - the fact that they can be detected says "fringe" to me. ;D
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I always thought Hero hex = 5' or so. oopsey then.... 5' radius = 10' diameter (3 hexes across for 1 meter hexes).
Hero 5 uses the metric system.
They're smart guys :)
page 75 gives the mods for seeing somebody who is invisible - the fact that they can be detected says "fringe" to me. ;D
LOL.
This is what i would call half cheating ;D
Hero's fringe is like the predator's one = light bends around the character. (But it can be glowing eyes, faint shadow or similar.)
What you call "fringe" from Harp page 75 is different.
The Harp's one result from physical relations which have nothing to do with light (water, dirty floor, rain, talking, etc..... = we can say these are matter particles relations, whereas proton is an interaction particle.)
Removing the HERO's fringe from a HERO's invisibility doesn't remove the HARP's kind of fringe.
Removing the HARP's kind of fringe would be something like intangibility or a no-sound effect.
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A word about "balancing" spells.
What does it mean ?
What is it based upon ?
I see two possibilities :
- complexity
and/or
- effectiveness and playability (IMHO this is the same thing)
(Disclaimer = i'm speaking of the base effects.)
Complexity: the only objective way of speaking of the complexity of a spell would be speaking of the real life complexity of emulating (even not perfectly) his effect.
Teleportation would be probably a lot more complex (and would require a lot more energy) to emulate than the majority of other spells.
You can reply that realism is not an obligation in a FRPG and i would agree.
You can also say that the complexity scale is defined by the magical setting and i would agree too (because i'm a nice guy, but i dislike that.)
Effectiveness : How often a spell would be usefull ? I can think of a lot of usages for LongDoor. I would not say the same about Darkness.
Ask anyone, would you prefer a 6 PP no-obstacle 30 meters teleport with a -10 malus or a 7 PP 5' radius darkness ? How often will you really use each spell ?
Before replying : One important question which has a real effect on effectiveness: does the caster see through his own Darkness spell ?
If so, Darkness could be worth his cost but it would be nice to write it.
By default, because it's not written, there is no reason to think so.
And think about it : compare 30 meters of teleportation and 1.5 meters radius sphere of darkness....
I see no other ways to "balance" spells.
Do you see others ?
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PS: and a black sphere is not an often useful hidding device = anyone could notice it except in pitch black environments.
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a black sphere in the open isn't too useful true but put it in an enclosed space with multiple exits covered in darkness it forces a choke point in some ways. You have to leave the darkness a certain way to see and in a well planned situation that can give someone a tactical advantage.
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I would like to add that Darkness has several excellent uses.
"If the center point of the darkness is cast upon a mobile target, the spell will move as the target moves. The caster may adjust the size darkness from its full radius down to a small point with but a round of concentration."
#1: Wizard casts Darkness on a stone and throws it into the middle of his enemies. Their support troops are essentially blinded. If they try emerge from the darkness, they will be subject to surprise and flanking attacks. As needed, the Wizard can adjust the size. It essentially a nasty attack spell that can't be resisted (although a dispell would work). And then Counterspells become hard because you can't see spells coming (like a fireball). Admittedly, the side casting the Darkness might have targeting issues, too, but they are more likely to be prepared (and so might have a Mystic or Shadowblade with Nightvision who's given everyone Nightvision before the fight). This works great in surprising guards or a difficult monster. Your enemies are blind, you can see. Guess what? You win.
#2: Works like a screen against counterspells and targeted spells. Allows one side to hide "movements". Especially when a retreat is in order.
#3: Defeats Past Visions without any chance of being overcome by high rolls.
#4: Its a great diversion. SOMETHING must be going on in the darkness. Investigate. Meanwhile, we long door right past the guards...
And Long Door in a tactical situation is GREAT FUN. Its like REAL tactical magic instead of substitute "weapons". Long Door is a RANGED spell (only 10' but that's good enough). It can be used to remove a character from danger. The Wizard can bip the mighty fighter right in the face of the enemy wizard. Or in the middle of the support team. Talk about CHAOS. Nothing more fun than battlefield chaos. Like I said before, if I wanted to play battle chess, I would play D & D. Personally, I like chaotic battles with characters going in every direction and lots of tactical surprises. THAT is more like real fighting.
My PCs have a Thaumaturge that cranks out Long Door Marbles so everyone can add to the fun...
Robin
PS You are more than welcome to limit available spells as Rasyr said. I've run many campaigns where the PCs and "regular" characters had no magic available to them whatsoever. Magic was the province of a few special wizards or bad guys (you know - like Tolkien) or there was simply NO magic.
And remember, Role Playing Games are best played as a sophisticated form of interactive storytelling with everyone working towards producing a memorable outcome. Its not really a competition in the sense of Monopoly, Chess or Football. Its Improv Theater. Its "can you top this". Its "watch" - I'm going to defeat the thirty gobins using a salad fork. Its about saving the world - for the jillionth time. Its about rescuing a little girl from demonic possession. Its about inventing tactics that completely ruin the conventional tactical wisdom and turn the world upside down.
Example:
I once bought a RM module that involved a tomb that could only be reached by swimming underwater - and so there was limited oxygen in the tomb. So in theory, the PCs had but a couple of hours to completely explore the tomb before the oxygen ran out hence making things particularly difficult. But one of the PCs had 20+ ranks in Military Engineering. The PCs also had plenty of gold and authority, so they hired a bunch of local villagers and spent several days damming the river. Now, nice fresh air was unlimited in the tomb. Did I PUNISH the PCs for doing something smart? Nope. I thought it was brilliant.
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#2: Works like a screen against counterspells and targeted spells. Allows one side to hide "movements". Especially when a retreat is in order.
#3: Defeats Past Visions without any chance of being overcome by high rolls.
It's not said that the caster may see through its own Darkness.
This greatly limits 2# and 3#.
Nevermind,
I DID NOT say Darkness is useless.
I said that the basic version of Darkness is too costly compared to the basic version of LondDoor, which is more often usefull.
This does not mean that Darkness is never to be used.
And remember, Role Playing Games are best played as a sophisticated form of interactive storytelling with everyone working towards producing a memorable outcome. Its not really a competition in the sense of Monopoly, Chess or Football. Its Improv Theater.
I know that but this is a bit off-topic. I just speak about system.
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I'm afraid we won't find any common ground here but, nevertheless, please note that despite those criticisms, HARP is still one of my two or three favorite rpgs and for sure my favorite heroic fantasy rpg.
As we say in french: "Qui aime bien chatie bien."
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I apologize. I didn't mean to imply that you hated the game or wasn't trying or anything. I was just trying to be encouraging in my off-handed way. Magic systems are always fraught with peril for the designers. A seemingly benign "low power" spell can be turned into a nuclear weapon by clever players. So, while I disagree - I share you enthusiasm for the game.
Robin
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I didn't mean to imply that you hated the game or wasn't trying or anything.
don't worry, i know. There was no confusion.
I apologize.
Do not.
There is no problem here ;)
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I know this one is late too...
I see no problem with low level characters having access to transportation magic.
I agree with Janpmuellers reasoning in reply #18 and Rasyr in reply #22.
If you don?t spells are undercosted, buy College of Magic and reprice them with new scaling options and costs.
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IMO I think the major difference between pps for spells such as Long Door and Invisibility verses Darkness and Earthern Transmutations is that the first 2 are individual effect while the last 2 are area effect. To me this would make sense since, while Long Door and Invisibility are useful spells, they only have a limited effect on an individual while Darkness and Earthern Transmutations could effect a number of opponents. For instance, cast Darkness on a stone and throw it into a group of attackers and they're blind or cast it upon an opponents sword or armour and what do they do then? Or Earthern Transmutations in a swampy location, cast (scaled) Mud to Packed Earth around opponents feet and then Packed Earth to Stone and you could trap multiple opponents easily. (Especially if you use a Spell Adder for instance)
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IMO I think the major difference between pps for spells such as Long Door and Invisibility verses Darkness and Earthern Transmutations is that the first 2 are individual effect while the last 2 are area effect. To me this would make sense since, while Long Door and Invisibility are useful spells, they only have a limited effect on an individual while Darkness and Earthern Transmutations could effect a number of opponents. For instance, cast Darkness on a stone and throw it into a group of attackers and they're blind or cast it upon an opponents sword or armour and what do they do then? Or Earthern Transmutations in a swampy location, cast (scaled) Mud to Packed Earth around opponents feet and then Packed Earth to Stone and you could trap multiple opponents easily. (Especially if you use a Spell Adder for instance)
This is my thinking as well. Although I don't own CoM or run a magic heavy game, the above makes good sense to me...
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In all of our games (regardless of system) we restrict the use of flying and teleport spells. This mostly stems from a rolemaster campaign where the party avoided an entire country worth of encounters in one session via the use of fly spells and the spell reins list.
In our current HARP game we're not allowed to scale long door up for range. As a compromise this means it's still useful as a utility and combat mobility spell but it's not useful for transport.
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You neednt worry about i the cost.
DND 3.5 - Expiditous Retreat = HARP Long Door at base cost.
Remember that the mage needs one round to cast this. Throw in an archer or two shooting mages and the spell is ruined. (You cant dodge and cast a spell at the same time! Both require full concentration for the full round.) Throw in ANY spellcaster with Counterspell with 4+ ranks and they can counter his attempt!
Mages with a huge range of spells at L1 cant do ANYTHING!. Cant wear armor, cant defend themselves (need time to cast those defense spells and who had that time when ambushed? You run out of PP's VERY quickly when trying to cast or keep spells going - you cant maintain the spells each hour let alone the whole day.
The BIGGER worry is a mage with an item (5 DP's) that allows them to cast Long Door (Base cost only) once per day. Then they dont have to cast a spell to use it, they simply "Activate" the item... Then they start buying these each level for 5DP's each...
There are a heap of other things that COULD effect the game play but in the end the sacrifice is in DP's.
You can try to be a jack of all trades but in the end your master of none.
My first mage was as you suggested - he lasted four rounds I think (including the suprise round) becuase I couldnt do Anything well enough.
It all balances out...
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IMO, one of the main issue about spells is that there are too PP cheap.
A lot of them can be cast by a first level spell-user.
I am against making the spells cost more.
One of the biggest draws for me is that I can make powerful spell casters. This is one of the only RPG games left where we can be proud to play a spell user. When I wanted to play a weak caster I play GURPS or D&D.
Please don?t weaken the epic feel of HARPS.
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Rememebr,
A HARP character has multiple spells (from 1 - 20 max per profession - generally!) that he can start learning early and can escalate as he gets betetr - learns more ranks.
DnD charaters have weak spells that cant be scaled or changed - you can only learn a different spell that has a similar effect (ie. Acid hand is touch and does 1hp, then Magic Missile does more damage but limited to a max effect), increasing to more powerful spells at much later levels...
These are different tyypes of magic systems and this is how it is supposed to be. Changing the PP cost isnt the answer.
Dont make it into a Rules issue it is a personal GM issue. if you dont want people of low levels have the spell then just tell your players that you are making a house rue: "No Long Door until Level X".
Problem solved.