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Systems & Settings => HARP => Topic started by: Dr_Sage on July 23, 2007, 12:37:14 PM
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Hello fellows,
I am considering Battle Runes Skill as a good option for a paladin character, with made me re-read the skill and I have some doubts:
1) A Paladin would need at least 24-27 ranks to inscribe one of his own spells on his weapon right? Blessed Hammer for example. With less ranks he can?t scribe any spell from his sphere right? Just confirming.
2) Rune activation: its stated there that the character can activate more than one BattleRune at the same time. In the example: "Nynyve announces that she is activating the following Battle Runes: the Boost Agility Rune on her Armor, and the
Fireball on an arrow. She also announces that she is moving into a good position for her bow." So Activate a battlerune is like just speak a magic word, touch a part of the armor, meaning its a free action and you can move at the same time for example?
3) Costs: Its not stated there how much should cost the materials. The original idea is that monerary limits to materials shall not be as issue right?
4) This sentence confuses me:
"For every 20 ranks a character has in the Battle Runes skill, he or she can add one of the following options to the Battle Rune:"
This means:
1-20 ranks = 1
21-40 ranks = 2
and so or or....
1-19 = 0
20-39 = 1
40-59 = 2 ?
Same aplies to: "A character can inscribe one Battle Rune for every 5 ranks he or she has in the Battle Rune Skill."
So if I am reading it right BattleRunes is a powerfull but extremely expensive option. Its a skill that you need la ton of ranks to actually do something usefull with it (even so only base form spells).
Thanks in advance for the replies. 8)
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1) A Paladin would need at least 24-27 ranks to inscribe one of his own spells on his weapon right? Blessed Hammer for example. With less ranks he can?t scribe any spell from his sphere right? Just confirming.
To scribe Battle Runes from Universal Sphere costs number of ranks equal to 5 + PP cost of spell.
To scribe Battle Runes from Other Spheres costs number of ranks equal to 20 + PP cost of spell.
Martial Law does not list any Paladin spells as being capable of being used for Battle Runes. it would be up to the GM to determine which spells are usable and which aren't.
2) Rune activation: its stated there that the character can activate more than one BattleRune at the same time. In the example: "Nynyve announces that she is activating the following Battle Runes: the Boost Agility Rune on her Armor, and the
Fireball on an arrow. She also announces that she is moving into a good position for her bow." So Activate a battlerune is like just speak a magic word, touch a part of the armor, meaning its a free action and you can move at the same time for example?
Yes
3) Costs: Its not stated there how much should cost the materials. The original idea is that monerary limits to materials shall not be as issue right?
Material doesn't matter. The character may inscribe the Battle Runes on any piece of armor or weapon, with the limits on the number inscribed per item as given.
Remember, Battle Runes only last 24 hours and then fade on their own. These are NOT like normal runes, they do not last until cast.
4) This sentence confuses me:
"For every 20 ranks a character has in the Battle Runes skill, he or she can add one of the following options to the Battle Rune:"
This means:
1-20 ranks = 1
21-40 ranks = 2
and so or or....
1-19 = 0
20-39 = 1
40-59 = 2 ?
For every full 20 ranks you have, you can add in one of the options. These are not ranks above and beyond what is needed scribing the rune, but use the same skill, just counting the ranks separately.
Same aplies to: "A character can inscribe one Battle Rune for every 5 ranks he or she has in the Battle Rune Skill."
Okay, say you have 23 ranks in the Battle Runes skill.
This means that you know how to inscribe 4 different runes (whether or not you have enough ranks to actually inscribe the rune is a completely different story, as in the case of Paladin Base spells that you GM might approve of).
Having 23 ranks also means that you may apply one of the options to any rune you inscribe.
You may also inscribe the 4 runes you know up to a total of 23 times (in any combination, not each).
So if I am reading it right BattleRunes is a powerfull but extremely expensive option. Its a skill that you need la ton of ranks to actually do something usefull with it (even so only base form spells).
For Universal spells, it is more useful than it is for spells from a Specific Sphere, but the whole idea is to give non-spell users a boost without requiring them to actually learn the spells and so forth.
A character will need to be third level (and maxed out in ranks) at the very least before this skill actually becomes useful.
I hope that this answers your questions...
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Thanks man! Was really fast.
And regarding:
For Universal spells, it is more useful than it is for spells from a Specific Sphere, but the whole idea is to give non-spell users a boost without requiring them to actually learn the spells and so forth.
I was thinking you had to know the spell before you could learn the BattleRune version of it.
So if I underestand it right: The Paladin in question could have for example:
25 ranks in battle runes, meaning he could have 5 spells scribed at the same time on his gear (assuming GM approvals of course):
* Blessed Hammer
* Enhance Armor/ Magic Shield/ Other defensive random spell
* Light / Whatever
* Boost something
* Boost Something else
Without having to actually know these spells? (less DP spent)
And technicaly he could boost his friends also if he had time to do that, totalizing up to 25 spells inscribed?
Of course only non-scalled spells with really keep it balanced.
Hummm Interesting... and campaignwise... Maybe a bit overpowered... I need to playtest it.
Thx a lot.
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Note: Only 1 battle rune per weapon. And for armor, 3 battle runes for a full suit, or if doing Armor By The Piece (ABTP), then only 1 rune per piece, and no more than 3 pieces worn can carry runes.
Also, remember that it takes time to inscribe the runes.
Also remember that they fade after 24 hours.
And you were correct, they do NEED to be able to cast the spell in order to learn the Battle Rune for it.
Yes, he may inscribe battle runes on his friend's armor and weapons. However, in order for anybody but the inscriber to activate the rune, it will need a trigger condition to be used or the wearer will need the Battle Runes skill (or at least the Rune skill, but a Hard maneuver). The free action bit is for the creator of the Battle Rune. For anybody else, it is treated almost like a normal rune (without a trigger action, it will take a full round).
Note the special rules listed in Martial Law for offensive runes.
Inscribing a battle rune takes time, and battle runes CAN be fragile. How much time it takes will depend upon how the rune is inscribed.....
i.e. drawing a battle rune in paint will be quicker than carving it into the leather of your bracers, but it will also be more fragile as it is easier to mess up.
Battle Runes should most likely detect as active magic because they are "holding a spell in them", waiting to be released.
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Hummmm ::)
another approach: battle runes for a full caster?
Its expensive but the ability to activate 2 or 3 spells without the need for actions is tempting.
Lets see an example:
A Spell Caster with:
* Armor Type spell cast over his clothes or bracers, etc.
* Boost type spell (boost quickness for example) on his boots. Or maybe levitate or Fly.
Both could be activated by the caster at will in the beggining of a crisis situation right?
* The universal Minor Healing with a condition like "when I receive a critical", or "become unconscious", or "start to bleed" etc.
That would not be cheap but I think would be a very powerfull combo.
What you guys think?
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Going back to the beginning questions? from what I read of Battle Runes, to inscribe the base form of Divine Hammer (I have Harper?s Bazaar and Blessed Hammer isn?t listed), the Paladin would have to have 25 ranks in Battle Runes and know the spell. If the said Paladin knew any Universal spells, he may be able to inscribe them.
It?s interesting, I know I?ve seen twice now the activation time on Battle Runes, yet I still can?t find anything in Martial Law. Well apart from ?offensive? runes taking one round to activate. Obviously by the examples in Martial Law and from what Rasyr has said, activation of the Battle Rune and the spell taking effect are two different things. Which now leads me to another thought... how many free actions can you take in one round?
In regards to the cost of materials, I believe that they would be minimal. As the skill says, paints and brushes etc.
For every full 20 rank (e.g. 1-20, 21-40, etc.) a character could apply one of the listed options.
The skill details do seem to contradict each other. In the beginning it says that a character can inscribe one rune for every five full ranks they have in Battle Runes yet later it says they cannot inscribe more runes then they have ranks in Battle Runes. I presume the ?inscribe? should have been ?memorize/know? in the first skill condition.
I would look at finding a way to limit the number of actions a character can make in a round. For example, I would rule that you can make one complex action (e.g. a full round action in one round) and between two free actions each round. So this would allow only two Battle Runes to be activitated in one round and may limit the power of certain combinations. Otherwise I like your thinking. :)
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Hum .....
"A Character can only inscribe a rune of a spell he or she
has learned. A character can inscribe one Battle Rune
for every 5 ranks he or she has in the Battle Rune
Skill. All runes inscribed are for the spell?s basic
form?not for the scaled up version of the spell."
-> sounds to me like you HAVE to have ranks in the spell you'd try to inscibe AND 5 ranks in BR for each spell to inscribe. And they last (activated) dependent to the skill ranks in the spell.
IMHO a very expensive** skill. I'd prefer to use power projection for temporary item enchantment.
(** especially for battle classes w/o favorite mystical arts skill category)
@DrSage:
isn't it more powerful to use spell trigger (Codex) for a mage?
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Going back to the beginning questions? from what I read of Battle Runes, to inscribe the base form of Divine Hammer (I have Harper?s Bazaar and Blessed Hammer isn?t listed), the Paladin would have to have 25 ranks in Battle Runes and know the spell. If the said Paladin knew any Universal spells, he may be able to inscribe them.
For every 5 ranks in the Battle Runes skill, the character "learns" one of the spells available for use as a Battle Rune (Note: Paladin spells are not listed because at the time that the book was released, Paladins weren't a profession). You are NOT required to have ranks in the actual spell!
It is expensive to use Battle Runes? Yes, it is. That was the intention!! Battle Runes give non-spell users the ability to inscribe spells on their weapons and armor.
The skill details do seem to contradict each other. In the beginning it says that a character can inscribe one rune for every five full ranks they have in Battle Runes yet later it says they cannot inscribe more runes then they have ranks in Battle Runes. I presume the ?inscribe? should have been ?memorize/know? in the first skill condition.
Correct. They learn 1 rune for every 5 ranks. And they may have a number of runes inscribed equal to their ranks (i.e. 20 ranks in the skill == 20 runes spread among various items).
Hmm.. I should perhaps revisit Battle Runes in an issue of the HARPer's Bazaar, and clarify things, as well as add new spells (from the professions published afterwards).
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*confused*
"A Character can only inscribe a rune of a spell he or she
has learned. A character can inscribe one Battle Rune
for every 5 ranks he or she has in the Battle Rune
Skill. All runes inscribed are for the spell?s basic
form?not for the scaled up version of the spell."(p. 14 ML)
For every 5 ranks in the Battle Runes skill, the character "learns" one of the spells available for use as a Battle Rune (Note: Paladin spells are not listed because at the time that the book was released, Paladins weren't a profession). You are NOT required to have ranks in the actual spell!
Really? In ML it isn't written that way.
"For any spell that has a duration tied to ranks in the spell, the duration is that of the inscriber?s ranks in the spell, and not in his or her ranks in the Battle Runes skill." (p.15 ML)
Finally you can inscribe a spell you haven't learned (with spell ranks) in a battle rune but with a duration of zero rounds?
There are cleric and warrior mage spells in the ML inscribable spell list. Same spells as a paladin can use.
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Really? In ML it isn't written that way.
"For any spell that has a duration tied to ranks in the spell, the duration is that of the inscriber?s ranks in the spell, and not in his or her ranks in the Battle Runes skill." (p.15 ML)
yeah, that is one of those things that we actually changed in the manuscript, and had change back on us without our realizing it... sigh...
Duration for a Battle Rune is according to the number of ranks in the spell, if you know the spell. If you don't know the spell (to cast), then duration is as if you knew the minimum number of ranks in the spell (i.e. if the spell cost 3 PP, then you are treated as if you had 3 ranks in the spell for determining duration or other variable factors).
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Hmm.. I should perhaps revisit Battle Runes in an issue of the HARPer's Bazaar, and clarify things, as well as add new spells (from the professions published afterwards).
Hmmm... sounds like it might be the case at hand. Battle Runes does sound like a good idea, however the mechanics seem to be unclear. I think I understand the idea behind the skill now and would be happy to see an HB article covering this for player clarification.
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Just after a bit of clarification in regards to Battle Runes.
If I have Battle Runes (say 15 ranks) so I can have 3 spells enruned, can I change my mind if I decide I don't like one of runes?
For instance, one of my rune spells is minor healing and I've been using it previously, can I discard it and add Blur instead?
So my rune spells go from:
Boost Agility
Boost Strength
Minor Healing
to
Boost Agility
Boost Strength
Blur
Or, once learned, can a rune never be unlearned?
Also, the impression I get is that the rune roll is made when the rune is written rather than used. To me, that seems a little weak as the character can heal themselves if there is a fumble. I'd prefer to see the rune roll happen when the rune is activated so that there is a possible danger to the user if it fumbles. It would make sense as well since the player activating the rune shouldn't know how effective it was until it's needed. Mages don't get the advantage of knowing how their spells are going to work, so why should Battle Rune users?
Lastly, (and I know this is serious min/maxing) it says that you can have a maximum of 3 runes on armour worn and 1 on your weapon.
Can I carry multiple weapons with different runes? So I can take out my sword with Elemental Weapon use that for a few rounds til the rune stops then draw my sword with Blur and use that etc etc etc?
And lastly, lastly (sorry) it doesn't seem like it costs any power points to rune a spell. Is this right?
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1) Sorry, but no, once you learn a rune, you know it. You want to know a different rune, then buy more ranks. ;D However, you also know the runes for any eligible spells that you know as well.
2) When a mage casts a spell, they know that it will work at the minimum effect at least (should they successfully cast it). And a mage can scale up his spell to be more powerful also. However, with a Battle Rune, you are limited the base form of the spell, and for the base duration as well. If you inscribed the rune correctly, the spell will work correctly (activating it is essentially nothing more than touching it and willing it to work -- the hard part has been done already).
3) Yes, you can have multiple weapons with 1 rune per weapon. However, remember that each weapon also takes up space and adds to your encumbrance (which in turn lowers all of your skill bonuses). In other words, carrying 6 long swords just isn't going to be possible.... And don't forget that you have to draw the new weapon, even if you just drop the old one. This takes time and you are vulnerable during that time.
4) No, Battle Runes do not cost/require Power Points. That is one of the reasons that the runes fade after a while. It is also one of the reasons that Battle Runes are so difficult to learn. The inscribing essentially draws the power from around the character to enrune the item.
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4) No, Battle Runes do not cost/require Power Points. That is one of the reasons that the runes fade after a while. It is also one of the reasons that Battle Runes are so difficult to learn. The inscribing essentially draws the power from around the character to enrune the item.
If there are no power point cost or requirements then why is fumbling Battle Runes 26-50 "You just can't seem to focus. You lose the power points of the spell but nothing happens."?
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2) When a mage casts a spell, they know that it will work at the minimum effect at least (should they successfully cast it). And a mage can scale up his spell to be more powerful also.
OK I see but, I guess, the advantage the Battle Rune has over a spell is that the player will always know the result prior to combat. The spell caster won't find out until the dice has rolled and a fumble could occur. For Battle Runes the roll of the dice could have been up to 24 hours (game time) previous and the fumble result will already be known.
If you inscribed the rune correctly, the spell will work correctly (activating it is essentially nothing more than touching it and willing it to work -- the hard part has been done already).
However, the Battle Rune fumble 51-75 says "You made a dud rune but don't know it. This rune will not work when activated." The player will always know if it's a dud rune or not, even if the character "theoretically" doesn't know. I guess it will come down to the honesty of the player to use the rune when they normally would rather than,say, if they were attacked by a crazed squirrel after some nuts.
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I've been thinking about this and would like to offer some changes to Battle Runes.
Firstly, I think of Battle Runes as firing a gun. The preperation is prior to the firing but must be done correctly or else it could fail. For instance, the weapon must be cleaned, maintained, the parts checked, the weapon loaded etc prior to firing. To me, this would be like writing the rune, the time and effort, the correct use of materials, the correct rune form etc is all preperation.
Then the activation of the rune would be like firing the weapon with 1 of 3 things happening:
1) It works.
2) There is a mis-fire (ie dud rune)
3) The bullet explodes in the barrel (ie failure of an elemental rune resulting in big bang)
By doing this we could then roll the rune roll upon activation rather than upon creation so that a fumble has a true gaming effect.
The Fumble Critical Table could also be adjusted to:
1-25 You didn't draw the runes correctly. Nothing happens.
26-50 You made a dud rune. Spend the rest of the round trying to work out what went wrong. (Only action allowed was rune activation, no parry etc)
51-75 Not only did you get that rune wrong, you've forgotten how to do it properly. Rune can not be used for 2 days while you try to remember how to draw this rune.
76-100 There is no way that rune was supposed to do that. If it was an Elemental spell, it exploded in your face.(OB +40 attack with the relevent element type {Cold, fire etc}. The only DB allowed is armour and +10DB from Instinctive defence, if available, (since this would be a suprise attack) and damage is rolled as a medium attack on the relevent table.
There is also a 10% chance that the item you were using (sword etc) is destroyed by the explosion.
If it was a Utilty spell, then you have written the rune incorrectly as an elemental attack. Roll as above with a +20 OB attack and roll a d100 for which table (0-25 Cold, 26-50 Fire, 51-75 Impact, 76-100 Electricity)
Just a thought.....
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I like it... :)
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Thanks ;D
It would get rid of some of the contradictions present between Battle Runes and the forum posts.
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Hi, yesterday we actually used Battle Runes in our game for the first time, so that a question came up, which I hope can be answered in this old thread.
For every 5 ranks in the Battle Runes skill, the character "learns" one of the spells available for use as a Battle Rune (Note: Paladin spells are not listed because at the time that the book was released, Paladins weren't a profession). You are NOT required to have ranks in the actual spell!
The original ruling as stated in ML - the inscriber must also learn the spell - also had the effect that it was clear that e.g. only a Mage was able to inscribe an Elemental Bolt spell, since only a Mage is able to learn this spell. Now that there is no longer the restriction to be able to cast the spell to inscribe, can any character learn to inscribe the Elemental Bolt spell as soon as he has the required no. of at least 23 ranks in the Battle Runes skill? Or is there still the restriction to have at least theoretical access to the spell, so that e.g. only a Cleric is able to inscribe Cleric spells?
Hmm.. I should perhaps revisit Battle Runes in an issue of the HARPer's Bazaar, and clarify things, as well as add new spells (from the professions published afterwards).
A good idea IMHO ;D.
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You need to be able to cast the spell in order to draw the Battle Rune for it? Thats seems odd if the objective is to give non-spell using characters a boost. Why not just buy the spell? Perhaps I'm interpreting that statement incorrectly.
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You need to be able to cast the spell in order to draw the Battle Rune for it? Thats seems odd if the objective is to give non-spell using characters a boost. Why not just buy the spell? Perhaps I'm interpreting that statement incorrectly.
The character won't want to buy the spell since he presumably is wearing armor and it would cost a lot of PPs and thus also ranks in the spell. But that's not my point since Rasyr in fact ditched that old ruling that you had to learn the spell (see his postings above). What I'd like to know is whether there is still a restriction for e.g. a Fighter that prevents him from inscribing e.g. a Mage spell that he normally does not have access to.
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I would have ditched that ruling anyway. As for actually being able to use spells from Professional Spheres, I would say that if you can get your hands on it you can use it.....but it would be very difficult to get your hands on, as mages in general gaurd their secrets with a certain vigour ;)
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My personal take also is that, for being able to learn a spell as Battle Rune, the character would need to get access to the spell. For the sake of simplicity I'd rule that access to the spell is defined via the current profession. But I had hoped to get an official ruling on that.
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Thats why Universal Spells are, well, Universal. Anyone has access to them. Myabe you'd be able to purchase the Arcane Discovery Talent (or the HARP version of it) and justify the use of another spheres battle runes. That seems to provide game balance, as a DP expendature is IMHO always a good way to keep power-gaming in check.
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Yes, Any character can cast Elemental Bolt if he has 23 ranks in Battle Runes Skill.....
Or he can get 4 ranks in Elemental Bolt........
Pretty obvious what the benefit is, really!
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Sorry, but I don't understand your point. Not any character can get 4 ranks in Elemental Bolt, only those with access to the Mage sphere can do so. And whether any character can really use Elemental Bolt via Battle Runes is not really obvious, since the ML rules state that the access to such runes is limited to casters of a given sphere of magic. Rasyr's ruling above might mean that this limitation should be removed, but that is IMO far from clear.
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The ruling can be found in Martial Law. Why Rasyr made a contradictory statemen on July 16, 2008 I can not say - but since he did not flag it as an official ruling I would say that the words in Martial Law hold.
Inscription requirements: To inscribe a Universal spell,
a character need only have 5 ranks in Battle Runes,
plus a number of ranks equal to the Power Points
needed to cast the spell, and be able to cast the spell.
If a spell costs 6 PP to cost, then the caster must
have 11 ranks in Battle Runes to inscribe the spell.
To inscribe spells of any other spheres, the character
must have 20 ranks in the Battle Rune skill plus a
number of ranks equal to the Power Points needed
to cast the spell, and be able to cast the spell.
If you can't cast the spell itself, then you can't inscribe it as a battle rune.
Note: Your warrior could go to the high mage and have them inscribe the rune, and then the warrior can activate it when needed.
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The ruling can be found in Martial Law.
From the rules written in ML everything is perfectly clear. You need to be able to cast the spell to inscribe a rune and thus only those with access to a given sphere will be able to create runes from this sphere. I am fully of aware of that ruling and have no questions concerning how it works.
Why Rasyr made a contradictory statemen on July 16, 2008 I can not say - but since he did not flag it as an official ruling I would say that the words in Martial Law hold.
Non-spell users should not be penalized by having to invest twice in the often costly Mystical Arts category in order to be able to inscribe a rune. So the requirement to be able to cast the spell was planned to be dropped (this got lost on the way to the final book, as Rasyr explained above). This is what Rasyr clarified. Now we can well understand this reasoning and used the skill accordingly, but then the question arises how to handle the restriction concerning which spells are allowed to be inscribed. And concerning this new ruling I'd like to know whether a restriction concerning the spell spheres does still exist.
Note: Your warrior could go to the high mage and have them inscribe the rune, and then the warrior can activate it when needed.
Yes, I am aware of that. And since the Mage would also be able to create a rune with a certain trigger condition, the Fighter would even be able to use the rune without having to make a Runes / Battle Runes skill check in order to activate the rune. But you don't always have a Mage/Bard/Ranger/Druid etc. at hand...