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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Newdragon on August 17, 2006, 01:38:19 AM

Title: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Newdragon on August 17, 2006, 01:38:19 AM: THE PROBLEM OF
MASIVE MULTYPLAYER ONLINE ROLEPLAYING GAMES

For some time now I have been playing a few MMORPS and have found them to be only hack and slash games. Very little if any role-playing takes place. The main goal is to kill as many npc?s and complete as many quests as you can to level as fast as you can.

There are probably a few exceptions to this rule but I have had trouble finding them. In a role-playing world, the pc?s should not only strive to level there characters, but should be able to change the very fabric of the game world with there action. They should be able to build a community, not just through interaction with other players but in the ability to build towns and cities, lumber forests, mine for minerals and other activities that are run and controlled by the characters.

An example of this is as follows.

******************************************************

A level 15 Dwarf rogue decides that he wants to follow other activities, rather than just hack his way through hordes of monsters and pages of quests. He has skills in prospecting, mining and metal appraisal. The Dwarf remembers that a few weeks ago, while passing through an area of the wilds, his prospecting skill informed him that a vain of minable iron ore was present in the side of a steep hill.

Our valiant Dwarf miner to be decides that this will be no small enserver. So he goes and hires a group of npc?s with skill in mining, collects the provisions that he needs, axe, pick, shovel etc., and heads out to the place were the ore is.

After starting the mining, our Dwarf needs to smelt the ore into iron ingots but he hasn?t got a smelting works, nor dose he have the necessary skills to do so. This is a dilemma. After some thought and a few curse oaths, our Dwarf decides he needs a partner with the necessary smelting skills and finds a Human magician level 18 with smelting and smithing skills.

The Dwarf and the Human form a guild called The Dwarf and Human Mining Cartel. Because the Human has the skills necessary, he now goes and hires the labour and buys the necessary equipment to build the smelting works and a smithy. They return to the mine sight and build. So fare, so good.

Because the two don?t have to be present for the mining and smelting and they can set the smithy to produce steel ingots, (There are probably other small industries that are associated with the project such as a lumber mill for the mine and a charcoal maker for the smith, but this is just an example of an industry for players to involve themselves in.) they can go and replenish there immediate finances and earn some more xp questing.

After a few days questing and having a great time killing the King Troll of Boggy Swamp, our heroes return to the mining operation to find utter disaster. It appears that a group of forest goblins have taken exception to the mining endeavour and have run off or killed all the workers, taken all the processed ore, equipment and fires the buildings.

Well as you could imagine, the air turned blue with the curses and swearing of our two enterprising heroes. After a heated discussion, our two friends decide to seek help from a Human fighter level 15 and a Half-elf ranger lv19 to punish the goblins and recover there stolen equipment and stock.

After some tracking and a short but bloody fight, our heroes return triumphant to there decimated mine sight. The Dwarf invites the Human and Half-elf to join there little guild and they begin to rebuild. With the fighter and ranger now in the group they can now build a barracks and a scouting hut to give them some guards and a warning if there are any feather attacks

******************************************************

As you can see it?s much more interesting and creates more of a challenge than just hack and slash. Of course there is a lot more to it like trading there goods and maybe expanding the whole sight to include a tavern/shop to sell there finished wares from the smithy and a temple for travellers. They could build a farm and provide food at the inn to help replenish wary pc?s who need to heal up and replenish there manna, all returning revenue to our friends.

Whilst the above is just an example, ill try and lay out a system for really achieving the above goal in a step by step manna and gladly welcome other people to add and expand on the idea.

1.   To stop guilds building right next to one another, have places of power evenly spread out over the game world in out of the way places. These sights are were the guild leader places his guilds hall. I advise that you have the game world broken up into regions and districts. A region has a main adventuring centre with 10 or so districts around it with 2 or 3 places of power in each district. Once a guild controls all the places of power in a district, they control a district and could even place toll ways on the roads, leading to guild vs. guild fighting over access rights through a whole region (more on that later).

2.   Once the guild hall has been build, it becomes the guild treasury. Items can be stored there, as well as guild finances and individual finances. It can be a place of rest and healing for guild members after adventuring. The hall would gain a family of npc?s to interact with, i.e., treasure keeper and 2 or 3 guards of half the level of the guild master to act as security standing outside the door.

3.   Once the Guild Hall is built, other guild members are needed to build other buildings. I have listed an example of the requirements for each building below; other people could add to this or expand on the skill requirements. An example for this for expanded guild member participation is a fighter builds a barracks to add more soldiers to the protection of the guild base. He would be responsible for placing the soldiers at strategic points or have them walk set patrols. If a stables is attached to the barracks, then the pc in charge of the stables can set ridden patrols in the district, weather they be up to the main road or along a path were goods are brought into the store house from the mines.

4.   The Guild Hall is the main building and replaces the marker for the place of power, this is were PvP can be introduced into the game. Instead of having safe regions that are PvE, you have the guilds declare war on each other and have only those in the 2 respective guilds fighting for land. If a Guild Hall is destroyed, the winning guild captures the goods, buildings and industries associated with the Guild Hall once they have build a new hall. To place limits on the guilds, you could rule that a guild leader can?t control more that one Guild Hall and guild members can?t control more than one building. This will force the guilds to grow, merge or die. You would allow another member of the guild who has the required level to build the second Guild Hall and be in charge of the second town, designating who builds or takes over the old buildings or new ones.

5.   All the buildings add something for the guild. A Wizards Tower can teach new guild members there spells at a cheaper cost that in a major centre. Non guild members could pay to learn at the same set rate that the towns give or be adjusted by the pc in charge of the Wizards Tower. A Church can offer the same thing with an added bonus of selling healing to other pc?s that are in the area. This is all provided that the pc?s aren?t in an enemy guild. The Wizards Tower and the Church can even become a repository of spells found by other members of the guild and in the long run, make them valuable targets for opposing guilds.

BUILDING SKILL REQIRMENT NPC?S

Guild Hall Guild Leader 2 fighters
Level 10 ? lv of PC

Barracks 4 Weapons rank 10 4 fighters
2 Armour rank 10 1x? lv of PC
1x? lv of above
3x? lv of above

Scout Hall 2 Outdoor - Environmental rank 10 5 Rangers
Subterfuge - Stealth: Stalk rank 10 1x? lv of PC
Subterfuge - Stealth: Hide rank 10 1x? lv of above
Subterfuge - Attack: Ambush rank 10 3x? lv of above

Spy Hall 4 Subterfuge - Mechanics rank 10 5 Rogues
2 Subterfuge - Stealth rank 10 1x? lv of PC
1x? lv of above
3x? lv of above

Monastery 2 Self Control rank 10 1 monk
1 Martial Art - level 4 rank 10 1x? lv of PC
1 Warrior Monk
1x? lv of PC

Craft Hall 2 Craft skill rank 10 2 Layman
1 Technical/Trade rank 10 1x? lv of PC
1 Lore - Technical rank 10 1x? lv of above

Merchant Hall Outdoor - Animal: Animal Handling rank 10 1 Layman
Outdoor - Animal: Driving rank 10 1x? lv of PC
Science/Analytic - Basic Maths rank 10
Technical/Trade - Advertising rank 10
Technical/Trade - Appraisal rank 10

Wizards Tower 5 Base Essence Lists rank 10 2 Wizards
1 Lore - Magical rank 10 1x? lv of PC
1x? lv of above

Alchemy Hall 3 Base Alchemy Lists rank 10 2 Alchemists
1 Lore - Magical rank 10 1x? lv of PC
1x? lv of above

Church 5 Base Channelling Lists rank 10 2 Clerics
1 Lore - Magical rank 10 1x? lv of PC
1x? lv of above

Farms 1 Outdoor - Animal: rank 10 2 Layman a farm
1 Outdoor - Environmental rank 10 1st Farm x2
Craft - Horticulture rank 10 1x? lv of PC
Lore- General: Flora rank 1o 1x? lv of above
Lore- General: Fauna rank 10 2nd Farm x2
? lv of above
3rd Farm x2
? lv of above
Etc. until lv1 only

Hall of The Mind 5 Base Mentalism Lists rank 10 2 Mentalists
1 Lore - Magical rank 10 1x? lv of PC
1x? lv of above

Clinic Technical/Trade - First Aid rank 10     1 Healer
Technical/Trade - Use Prep. Herbs rank 10 1x? lv of PC
Technical/Trade - Prepared Herbs rank 10 1 Lay healer
1x? lv of PC

Hospital Technical/Trade - First Aid rank 10 2 Healers
Technical/Trade - Use Prep. Herbs rank 10 1x? lv of PC
Technical/Trade - Surgery rank 10 1x? lv of above
Technical/Trade - Prepared Herbs rank 10 2 lay healers
1x? lv of PC
1x? lv of above

Fletcher Hall 2 Weapons - Missile rank 10 1 Layman
Craft - Fletcher rank 10 1x? lv of PC

Sables Outdoor - Animal: Animal Handling rank 10 1 Layman
Outdoor - Animal: Riding rank 10 1x? lv of PC
Outdoor - Animal: Animal Training rank 10

Smithy 2 Technical/Trade ? Evaluate rank 10 2 Layman
2 Craft - Metal Craft rank 10 1x? lv of PC
1x? lv of above
I will add more to this after people add there comments.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: maikeru on August 17, 2006, 02:27:59 AM: You have obviously put some thought into this, and I must say, I would probably play that game, but from a programming stand, neer impossible. But if it makes you feel any better, you just gave me a great pen and paper idea. ;)
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Defendi on August 17, 2006, 04:33:09 AM: EQ 2 migth come as close as you can get. I spent HOURS doing nothing but crafts in that game. I'd have to level my adventurer levels just because I couldn't access the minerals I needed to craft in the zones I could safely mine. It was pretty fun.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: smug on August 17, 2006, 06:15:44 AM: Quote from: maikeru on August 17, 2006, 02:27:59 AM
You have obviously put some thought into this, and I must say, I would probably play that game, but from a programming stand, neer impossible. But if it makes you feel any better, you just gave me a great pen and paper idea. ;)

I am not sure that it would be "near impossible" to program. The biggest problem would relate to mining in a persistant world with finite resources; you would end up with stuff running out and, while this is realistic, it is not really how the MMORPGs are done.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Newdragon on August 17, 2006, 07:03:28 AM: As I said, I will add to this as we go.

The problem with minerals expiring is quiet easy in the rolemaster world in the form of earth nodes. I picture these as the points to start the towns in or rather on. This is were the places of power are. As for the minerals, if you read the varying material in the rolemaster books, they are a constant source of mineral wealth in the realms, paticularly mithreal and lean. Remember, most fantasy games could have 10's of thousand of years of history and if it wasn't for this mechanism, all the mineral wealth would have been spent thousands of years ago by the Dwarves alone.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Cory Magel on August 18, 2006, 12:06:52 AM: I've actually got quite a list of ideas for "My perfect MMORPG" written up over the years.

Minerals, for example, would be found within specific areas. For example, Mitheral might be found in a specific mountain range, but exactly where in that mountain range changes. Once a deposit is discovered and mined by an individual it shows up in a random location within that range again. This gives players a relative location to "mine" in, but does not result in "camping out" a location.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Cory Magel on August 19, 2006, 12:30:46 PM: Ok, at the request of Newdragon... here's a list I started working on back in the UO days. This is based largely with a Rolemaster viewpoint too as many of you will notice, but it comes from the experience of playing RPG's for well over 25 years and online games from the "Mud" days to Meridian 59, UO, DAOC, SB, SWG, AC, WoW, etc.

It's not perfect, needs to trimming and probably some additions and modifications... but it's a place to start. FYI, there is a long list of the weapons I'd have availabe in the world that I left off.

I'm also no programmer... so who knows, some of this stuff might be impossible. But, I know from playing the online games, that some of the concepts could do many of the games a whole lot of good and would be fairly easy to implement.

I.   Skill based, not level based, system. Don?t bother with levels at all.
1)   Constant progression and relatively visible accomplishment without the ?level grind? that so many people hate and burn out on done so by actually performing the skill action.
2)   Allow players to lock and unlock both upward and downward progression in a skill so that they may either stop progression or potentially forget a skill over time as they develop another at their skill cap.
3)   Provide bonuses in related skills for mastering a skill. Example: Herbalist give bonus to Brewer, Woodcarving gives a bonus to Fletching, Anatomy gives bonuses to First Aid, Healing, etc.

II.   Possibly no official ?professions? or ?classes?. Allow complete customization of skill choices thereby making individuals that much more unique in the world. Spells could be chose by ?school? (i.e. you?d chose Religious/Spiritual, Mental/Psionic, Energy/Essence).

III.   Professions / Classes (20) if needed or as examples of possibilities
1)   Magic
a)   Elementalist ? Fireball and lightning bolt chucker
b)   Healer ? full time healer
c)   Cleric ? Holy caster
d)   Mentalist ? mental manipulation
e)   Summoner ? teleporting allies, summoning help
f)   Illusionist ? illusionary armors, weapons, monsters, etc
g)   Druid ? Shapechanger, nature caster
h)   Alchemist ? Crafter/potion and scroll maker
2)   Arms
a)   Warrior ? General master at arms
b)   Soldier ? Seige warfare
c)   Rogue ? Light fighter
d)   Theif ? Burgler, sneak
e)   Warrior Monk ? Martial artist
f)   Archer ? Ranged master at arms
3)   Semi
a)   Ranger ? Tracker, hunter, survivalist
b)   Warrior Mage ? Melee elementalist type
c)   Assassin ? Cloaking, poisons, backstabbing
d)   Monk ? Paladinish warrior monk
e)   Paladin ? Holy warrior
f)   Medic ? Semi-Healer

IV.   Separate potential caps on combat and non-combat related skills.
1)   Make it possible to develop a single character that can be both an ?Adventurer? and a ?Non-Adventurer? (i.e. a Scout/Cook, Warrior/Smith, Mage/Herbalist, etc).
2)   Put varying caps on the potential number of actual types of weapons a character can develop skill in. (i.e. a Warrior would be able to learn virtually all without limit, a Ranger would be able to learn two melee categories and all of the missile category, a Mage would be

V.   Stats: Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, Quickness, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, Luck (Str + Con = Endurance, Dex + Qu = Agility, Int + Wis = Will)
1)   Increase stats by use with an overall cap.
2)   As skills, allow players to lock upward and downward progression.

VI.   Utilize monster drops for higher end player crafted items, creating the need, a use and a reason for such dropped ?loot? items on creatures. And DO NOT concentrate these drops in specific areas (this leads to camping certain mobs by players).
1)   Skins, Hides or Plates for armors
2)   Bones for Armor, Clubs, Bows, Weapon Handles, etc
3)   Claws for spiked weapons (spiked maces, etc) or Arrows
4)   Items actively used by humanoid target are dropped.

VII.   Customization of avatars:
1)   Weight (Fatter, thinner)
2)   Height (Taller, shorter)
3)   Age (Older, younger)
4)   Sex (Male, Female, Generic)
5)   Race (Elves, Humans, Centaurs, etc, etc)
6)   Skin Tone (Color; Lighter, Darker)
7)   Complexion (Freckles, Rough, Smooth)
8)   Tattoo?s (Head, Face, Chest, Back, Arms, Legs, Hands, Feet)
9)   Scars (Head, Face, Chest, Back, Arms, Legs, Hands, Feet)
10)   Hair;
a)   color
b)   length
c)   texture (straight, curly, etc)
d)   style (at least four variations)
e)   eyebrows
f)   mustache
g)   beard
h)   sideburns
11)   facial features;
a)   eyes
b)   ears
c)   nose
d)   mouth
e)   jawline

VIII.   Racial variety.
1)   At minimum, four distinct races (with 2-4 subspecies each) but preferably twice that many base races. (These would include the usual: Human, Elven variations, Dwarven variations, Hobbit, etc).
2)   Allow for a ?Sub-species? or ?Alternate-species? option where players can use an existing race to create an optional one. This would not change any statistics or values and would be in ?race name? only, but when combined with the feature customization tool could create a huge variety of role-playing possibilities. (Example: Elves could be modified into Wood Elves, Dark Elves, City Elves, etc).
a)   Human
1.   Rural
2.   Sea
3.   Mountain
4.   Arctic
b)   Elf
1.   Wood
2.   Plains
3.   Sea
4.   Underground
c)   Dwarf
1.   Mountain
2.   Underground
3.   Plains
4.   Arctic
d)   Gnome
1.   Plains
2.   Mountains
3.   Wood
4.   Underground
3)   Create specialty races for players who do something to earn them. Hitting a certain level, pre-ordering, being a dedicated tester, being voted a ?swell guy? by the population, etc. (These could include: a Giant type race, Centaurs, an Aquatic race, a Flying race or taking a monster-form in the game).
a)   Half Giant
b)   Centaur
c)   Flying race
d)   ?Monster? (pick from some ?humanoid? game creatures)

IX.   Open PvP with strict and enforced repercussions that will be significant, yet not essentially eliminate a character from enjoyable play.
1)   A color system may be utilized to partially designate the equivalent power level of another character within the game. This, however, should not be an automatic given in judging a potential foes ability, but a rough guideline.
2)   Allow a player killer to be attackable by victims or witnesses within any rural region and KOS (Kill on sight) by town/city guards of the region where the crime took place if that player has been reported to the local authorities (Note: NPC guards will not ?spawn? on the character ? s/he would have to be spotted by or pointed out to them). Victims have the choice to report a killing/theft.
3)   Allow a player killer to be attackable by anyone within a region if the witness or victim was a local authority and the event happened within the regions limits (NPC Guard, Town Militia, Town Politician, etc).
4)   If a third party helps a player killer the result will be that player being flagged in the same manner as the player killer itself for that given crime.
5)   All of these effects are permanent and cannot be eliminated by ?good deeds?. The only way for a criminal to be redeemed is by the victims themselves. The criminal will have to ask forgiveness and it is up to the victims what the price of that forgiveness is. If a victims account is closed then the criminal is considered forgiven by that victim.

X.   Player Title system
1)   An optional title based on skill mastery achievement, accumulated wealth and/or account age. This will allow those who want to be recognized for their achievements to be publicly recognized, but for those to want to remain more private and obscure to do so.
2)   A non-optional title system based on character reputation/alignment and number deaths per a set game time ratio. This will ensure that players are held accountable for their actions and also warn potential groups if a player significantly lacks any skill and would be a danger to the group.

XI.   Collision Detection and strict enforced punishment for those who abuse it for grief play. This is essential to good PvP tactics and battles and eliminates many problems that appear in medium to large scale combats.

XII.   One solitary world that is enormous in scale and contains the entire population.
1)   Make it take many hours of playtime to cross large areas. A minimum of six hours of constant travel to cross into other kingdoms or continents.
2)   Create zones based on servers such as large cities, islands, kingdoms, the ocean, etc. Meaning each zone, whatever it may be, would be an individual server.

XIII.   Allow a flat four characters if the game is all one server. If multiple servers/worlds are required then players are given two characters per server and six per account.
XIV.   Make increased travel speed an option for a price significant enough that it is somewhat prohibitive (only used liberally by the most wealthy).
1)   Catch a sailing ship out of a port, an airship off a mountain, a riverboat, etc. Give the form of travel some risks depending on the ticket cost (i.e. there could be a ?shipwreck? or ?crash? that leaves the character washed ashore or in the wilderness).

XV.   Utilize cities for player housing/shops.
1)   They are often given a back seat role as NPC shopping locations and for quick re-supply trips and loot selling. Encourage player interaction and promote gathering within the cities by making them a place where the majority of players live, craft, sell and buy items by using all the ?eye candy? buildings and shops as player run and owned establishments and living quarters.
2)   Other forms of player housing, outside of cities, would be available at an increased cost. Lots would be pre-determined where placement is allowed.
3)   Housing private space/storage is determined by the number of characters on the server and can be divided between the characters as the player wishes.

XVI.   City Types
1)   NPC Cities
a)   About 6+ Main NPC cities / About 36+ NPC Towns (towns being expandable by players potentially).
b)   1 Rogue community in each kingdom (no law ? no reporting for killing/theft)
2)   Player Cities
a)   Designate a few locations that would be entirely player built communities in varying locations (forest, plains, desert, mountain, subterranean, coastal, island, etc).

XVII.   Computer NPC Merchants and Vendors
1)   They will not buy just ?anything? that you have to sell.
2)   They will only sell the basic items and equipment needed to start a character off in the world. All other transactions will be on a player to player basis.
3)   If players do not have their own vendors NPC Merchants and Vendors will allow you to sell items through them via a commission system. However the NPC determines the value of the item, not the player, in this case and will also not accept overstocked items.

XVIII.   Player run NPC Merchants and Vendors
1)   Player owned NPC Merchants and Vendors have their own space limitation, but can also utilize storage within the shop to expand that storage space.
2)   Have a ?main market? within main cities where PC Merchants are allowed to place vendors. There would be a limit on the number of crafters here which would be determined by who has the highest sell rates in the city (players would be warned they need to move their vendor if they fall to low in ranking within the city). If possible, a limit would be set on the number of vendors selling the same kind of inventory.
3)   You can set your Merchant/Vendor to buy certain items from players, setting qualifications and paid prices for those items. Purchased items will go into private storage (where gold is kept) on that vendor.

XIX.   A good selection of Equipment slots.
1)   Armor Slots: Helm (Head), Gorget (Neck), Pauldrons (Shoulders), L. Rerebrace and R. Rerebrace (Upper Arms), L. Vambrace and R. Vambrace (Forearms), Gauntlets (Hands), Breastplate (Torso), Left and Right Guisses (Upper Legs), Left and Right Greaves (Lower Legs), Boots (Feet).
2)   Clothing Slots: Cloak, Shirt, Pants, Gloves, Boots, Hat
3)   Jewelry Slots: Nose (1 nose-ring), Ears (2 earrings), Neck (necklace), R. Wrist (bracelet), L. Wrist (bracelet), R. Hand (2 rings), L. Hand (2 rings).
4)   Equipment Slots:
a)   Belt: R. Waist (equipment slot ? 1handed items), L. Waist (equipment slot ? 1handed items), Back (equipment slot ? 2handed items), Pouch (money).
b)   Backpack: Main, Pouch, Pouch, Front Pocket
c)   Misc: Face (Mask), Eyes (glasses)

XX.   Weapons combat that is pro-active, not entirely automated.
1)   Allow choice of strike speed/power, high/low, left/right attacks. (Possibly use the number keypad #1-#9 using 0 as block and 5 as ?thrust?).
2)   In the case of ranged combat, make the rate of fire effect the accuracy of the attacker (the longer a shot is held the more accurate it becomes ? to a limit). Also check for hits when fired, then determine if there is an intervening obstacle immediately before the hit (this creates the possibility of dodging behind objects if there is time).

XXI.   A magic system that is versatile enough to allow for player created spells (assuming there will be a magic system)
1)   Give ?runes? properties that can be combined together to create spells of varying power and effects with the overall power consumption and casting time based on power and effect of those runes.
2)   Possibly gear these casters towards a more combat oriented existence. (They would not require as much of a cash investment as a Alchemist type character and have more variety in customized spell effect, but would likely be a bit slower in ?casting? their spells).

XXII.   Create an Alchemy system for potions that allows for caster types that use components instead of mana or power (assuming there will be an alchemy/magic system)
1)   Possibly gear these casters a bit less towards a combat oriented existence and give them a specialized ability to craft potions, dusts, salves, and magical raw materials to be used by crafters in the making of magical equipment.

XXIII.   Creating magical equipment.
1)   You will need a crafter.
2)   You will need an alchemist to provide the raw materials (which will have had to of been mined by a miner or found by a nature type in the case of wood).
3)   You will need a proper caster to cast the spells needed on the item during creation (if making a wand of fireballs you need someone that can cast fireball).
4)   The higher the quality of the raw materials the more skilled the miner, alchemist and item crafter must be. Obviously the higher level the spells being imbued into the item the most skilled the caster must be.
5)   While many of the professions that are crafter related would be setup under a system where a player could do both, having full fledged Alchemists be independent of that theory might be a good idea (however it would be nice to give them some kind of combat role ? such as using potions and scrolls instead of weapons or spells).

XXIV.   Guilds:
1)   Player Guilds
a)   Allow guild wars.
1.   Good vs. Evil
2.   Specific Guild
b)   Allow guild alliances.
c)   Allow for a wide range of possible custom heraldry.
2)   Craft Guilds
a)   Alchemy
b)   Brewing
c)   Etc?
3)   Combat Guilds
a)   Warrior Guild
b)   Scout Guild
c)   Archer Guild
d)   Magician Guild
e)   Thieves Guild

XXV.   Combat:
1)   Characters can move at a walking pace and continue combat actions with a penalty.
2)   Character cease combat actions when moving at a running pace (or faster) unless riding on (not piloting) a chariot, wagon, siege equipment, ship, etc.
3)   ???

XXVI.   Non-Weapon Skills;
1)   Alchemy*
2)   Anatomy* (Helps in both healing and battle)
3)   Animal Handler*
4)   Bard-craft* (Requires Musician)
a)   Entertainment
1.   Have a number of basic tunes.
2.   Allow for creation of own tunes.
b)   Provocation
c)   Pacification
d)   Inspiration
1.   Combat
2.   Movement
e)   Protection
1.   Magical
2.   Physical
5)   Blacksmithing
a)   Armorsmith
b)   Tinker (general items)
c)   Weaponsmith
6)   Botanist (Grows plants useful in healing, alchemy, d?cor, etc)
7)   Brewer
8)   Carrying (Gives encumbrance bonus)
9)   Cooking
10)   Dancing
11)   Delving
a)   Item Identification
b)   Spell Identification
12)   Disguise
13)   Evaluation (of players/monsters)
14)   Fishing
15)   Etiquette (Improves some NPC reactions)
16)   Glassblowing
17)   Guarding* (guards a teammate in combat)
18)   Healing*
19)   Hiding*
20)   Horsemanship* (Required for fighting from horseback)
21)   Inscription
22)   Jeweler
23)   Jumping
24)   Lore
a)   Heraldry
b)   Beasts (Animals, monsters, etc)
c)   History (Items, places, people)
25)   Lumberjacking
26)   Meditation (Improves healing and other regeneration times)
27)   Miner
28)   Musician
a)   Singing
b)   Instrument
29)   Parrying*
30)   Persuasion (For use on NPC?s only)
31)   Pick Locks
32)   Pick Pockets
33)   Running* (Improves running speed)
34)   Set/Remove Traps
35)   Spell-craft* (Magicians)
36)   Stalking*
37)   Stonecraft
38)   Swimming (Improves swimming speed)
39)   Tactics*
40)   Tracking
41)   Tailor (includes leather armors)
42)   Taxidermist
43)   Training (of animals)
44)   Veterinarian* (Healing of non-humanoids)
45)   Woodworking
a)   Bowyer/Fletcher
b)   Carpentry
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: goff on August 24, 2006, 09:16:09 AM: do you reolise that to have a program as indeth as role master would take up all the memory on your computer......... it being an onlin game would be bouring because of the loding times...... role master is pen and paper, i play it that way and enjoy it that way.... puting it on computer format is a felleny to the makers of the system and J R R Tolkin................
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Guillaume on August 24, 2006, 12:40:57 PM: Quote from: goff on August 24, 2006, 09:16:09 AM
puting it on computer format is a felleny to the makers of the system and J R R Tolkin................

Actually it's not a fellony. Most of the attack tables are computer generated.
Furthermore, Rolemaster is one of the easiest PnP game to computerize, and would need almost no adapation. Now, the character creation process needs some heavy revision as to be able to be done in the '5 minute attention span' of the 'standard MMO' player.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: allenrmaher on August 24, 2006, 09:56:07 PM: Quote from: goff on August 24, 2006, 09:16:09 AM
puting it on computer format is a felleny to the makers of the system and J R R Tolkin................

Even if it is copyright infringement, it is not, in most countries a fellony. Copyright exists so that the holders have legal recourse against those who abuse those rights. It is a civil matter in most of the world. And rightfully so... It exists to ensure that the creators of literature (and subsequent later forms that were not immagined at the time of it's creation) could make a reasonable living from thier works. Implicit in copywrite law is the obligation to extend fair use to people who purchase the products.

There is debate and discusion about what constitutes fair use in the digital age, but it is quite another matter to assume that these ambiguities in an ancient law are a Criminal act. To qualify as a criminal act there would have to be a very different set of rules applied and the victim would not be entitled to compensation under a criminal offence. That is why this belong in the civil realm where copyright holders can seek redress in the courts.

(Had this discussion with my buddy the lawyer the other day)...

Just to set the record straight(er)...
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: allenrmaher on August 24, 2006, 10:01:20 PM: Quote from: Guillaume on August 24, 2006, 12:40:57 PM
Rolemaster is one of the easiest PnP game to computerize, and would need almost no adapation. Now, the character creation process needs some heavy revision as to be able to be done in the '5 minute attention span' of the 'standard MMO' player.

There you are right I think HARP is very much a what was the word from the other thread 'handwaving' system. (which is what I like about it) Rolemaster has very well defined atributes, progresions, skills, etc... that would make it a good choice for computerization. That same complexity that is too much for me in a social setting would work really really well behind the viel of technology. I could actually enjoy the options of RM with the grunt work handled by a computer.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Cory Magel on August 25, 2006, 12:36:39 AM: Rolemaster, I think, would be a wonderful system to computerize. You could hide a vast majority of the detail behind programming.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Lord Garth on September 07, 2006, 06:31:09 AM: Hmmmm. I have but one question .... WHY? From a gamer point of view, and from a Roleplayer and GM, I can't imagine why I would ever need a game like this. The only reason why I would play Rolemaster online would be if I couldn't play it for "real". I am a computer gamer and all that stuff, though not as much as I used to be, and since both are competing for my (scant) spare time, I know which one I choose. Beer and friends, any time.

The problem with MMORPGs is that they place the emphasis on leveling up, which in itself becomes sterile after a while. A different focus, like the ones presented here, might work, but I know I am not ready to invest more than a few hours a week in console/pc gaming, and then only when with friends anyway.

Thus I have one thing to say .... RELEASE IT! If only to get more people interested in RMX or whatever, it might make sense. Unlike me, I guess ;D
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: KaBurr on September 18, 2006, 10:58:11 PM: I've thought a great deal about Rolemaster as an MMORPG. However it's not the system itself that would make it a good product, it's the overall design team. So far every MMORPG is based upon one thing - experience. Nothing else matters. However you gain it, it's all about experience and levelling. With such a one dimenional focus, it's no wonder players figure out "the system" and quickly plow through it. Everquest and Asheron's Call, the two fathers of the industry, designed a simple premise of gaining experience to allow players to enter more and more dangerous areas to fight scarier and more nasty things while amassing loot. These two companies made so much money, game designers everywhere wanted a piece of the pie and all kinds of garbage games flooded the market. However in the rush to get these to market, the designers dumbed the games down to the point now where it's not even hard for any player to get a character to its' maximum level. The level of enjoyment has dropped while designers try to maximize profits. Obviously we, the customers, are on the losing end of this deal.

The basic game which has been redesigned to death needs more complexity, not less. But it's not simply a matter of having a complex skill system. It is more a matter of the designers asking "what do we want our players to experience?". I can go hack and slash through any game and for me and the growing population who sees the current generation of MMORPGs as getting worse instead of better, designers need to think outside the box. If I were a game designer, I'd make my mission statement something like "to provide players with the opportunity to make meaningful choices about their character's futures and to immerse them in a creative, challenging world full of enemies, allies, monsters, traps, and plots to fight or problem-solve." Then it is simply a matter of fulfilling those objectives.

Again, if I were a game designer, here is what I would do...

- Market the game to adults. I'm not explicitly talking nudity here, I'm talking it's a game for adults.

- I would limit players to one character per account. If people want to play two characters and make mules and such fine. Pay me twice as much.

- One world. All the servers running all the lands and all the dungeons and whatever are one world. Imagine all the different continents of Kulthea. That way you're not having to keep 50 servers all the exact same so the world can actually be effected and changed. Sail from point A to point B and you move servers. Or whatever...

- The first player to do anything gets a superior version of it. The first person to figure out how to build a temple to a particular God will get a personal visit from that GM/God praising him with a permenant blessing. The first person to solve the sphinx' riddle will get a treasure from the "amazing" treasure list while everyone else will only get a treasure from the "pretty good" treasure list. The first person to create the recipe for the magical sword of fire will have a recipe for a better magical sword of fire than anyone else. Ever! The goal here is to make people want to explore. Make them want to try new things. Get them curious. Get them trying. Which gets them playing!!

- Don't give the players anything. If they want to build a boat, make them make it themselves. If they want to smelt ore, they can go dig the mine and build the forges. If they want to learn magic, they can build themselves a meditation room or church or library or whatever. And nothing comes easy. Let people try and power level up to level 50 when there are no libraries to learn spells at and everyone is weilding a stinky bronze club. Part of the problem gaming companies have is there are no obstacles like this to slow players down.

- Characters age and die. I'm not saying after two hours you move onto your next character but say every full 24 hours of play time your character ages a year and when he reaches "X" age, he dies a final death. However allow offspring to be created and perhaps those offspring can offer a bonus somehow.

- Allow a player to make actual choices about their character. And this is the biggest part. What if the ONLY people in all the land who could raise the dead were those who acheived the title of "high preist". How does one become high priest? You have to be online "X" amount of time (I belive you get out of something what you put into it). You have to build a temple at least such&such size. After that you'll have to be voted into office by those under you. You have to work to keep your office. What if someone could become head of the theives guild in a given city? Maybe you would get a certain percentage of all transactions based on a slider only you control of how aggressive your underlings are. What if the citizens of a city elect you mayor and suddenly you get to collect a certain percentage of all transaction that occur within your city based upon a slider (but the more aggressive you are, the more hunted you become). But as the theives guild' slider increases, meaning more theft, extortion, etc. your profits go down so you can't hire as many guards. And less guards means NPCs actually start to leave!! And if there are no NPCs to work in the shops the characters have constructed, they'll start to leave too. I don't want to carry that example too far so here's another one. While adventuring a character finds an old book. They give it to another player who has the skill to read it and after five minutes of watching a slider bar go across the screen, they discover it's the secret formulae to actually becoming a lich. Becoming a lich is a serious thing - you feed on the living, your body is destroyed as you become undead (good luck in trading with any NPC ever!), and you gain great magical powers. A tempting bargain. What if a character became a werewolf (every NPC at night became a piece of meat and you automatically attack it when near enough)? The examples are endless.

- I'd definitely have a complex faction system. You are not permitted to enter the castle to visit the king without a certain level of faction with the royal court (or perhaps a lower faction if "royal blood" is a background option). You are not permitted to participate in quest "X" which is the only quest teaching how to smelt mithril because you're the wrong race or your faction is not high enough. Conversly you cannot enter the assassins guild unless your faction with group "X" is low enough. Or in order to become mayor you need high faction with groups "X, Y, & Z". Or military standings. Or merchant guilds. Or whatever. But factions lead me to...

- I'd make everything PVP. Everything. And because I hear people cringing, I say it would be PVP BUT there would be consequences. If my human theif kills a lowly ogre guardsman, the their's faction with ogres would go down a moderate amount and say my reputation amoung other theives may go up. Now perhaps that same theif kills a knight who happens to be exalted royalty of country "X", high champion of the church of "Y", and arch enemy of the armies of "Z", I'm instead going to take a huge faction hit to my "X" and "Y" factions and a significant boost to my "Z" faction. However if I'm not careful I'll pretty quick lower all my factions to the point where I'm hunted even in my own lands. Eep! Take that ninja killers :) :) :) I would however reduce those penalties if one character killed another and they were, for example, grouped together (indicating friendship and thus an accidental death) or in a mutually agreed duel. But it makes those AoEs pretty scary.

- I'd have huge plots where if race or group "X" obtains some grand item then they get some kind of bonus. Should that item be stolen or lost, someone else will have that bonus. Much like the DAoC ideas.

- And the last thing I'll mention is that I'd make skills relevant. Having a trading skill means you get better deals from merchants. And unless you develop "X" bonus in it you can't open a stall in a bazzar. Having a leadership skill of "X" means you can hire this many NPCs. Or the size of group you can create, though you can join other people's groups that they create no matter what, is based upon your leadership. Same with who can create guilds, etc. A character can't work with iron until his metal working is to this level and he can't work with adamantite until it's that level. The higher your riding skill, the faster you go. The better your jumping skill, the farther you jump. Unfortunately large skill lists will scare many players who fear making the "wrong" choice. The first few levels will have to be automatic or something but still, your skills will be a large part of who your character is.

There are so many other things that could be done but aren't. And the reason why is they take work. Lots of work. And in a rush to make money, these wonderful ideas are often left aside and not used. It's a shame. I'd love a game where my character could be something. Not just "oh look, there goes another super-character". In my newbie days I remember seeing people with what I thought were these amazing things and admiring them. Now I'm jaded and know all they did was go to whatever dungeon it drops in and kill some nameless mob for it. I do remember a friend who played AC tell me that after about 18 months of the game being online, one person gathered as many people as he could into the town square. And then, before their eyes he cast the very first "circle" spell. No one had known it was possible up to that point, no one had ever seen a "ring" type spell. For that bit of time, that character was special and that made that player feel special. I would love to experience that in a game.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Cory Magel on September 19, 2006, 12:41:06 AM: Quote from: KaBurr on September 18, 2006, 10:58:11 PM
So far every MMORPG is based upon one thing - experience. Nothing else matters. However you gain it, it's all about experience and levelling. (snip) Everquest and Asheron's Call, the two fathers of the industry...

If those are the fathers, Ultima Online is the grandfather... and guess what? There were no levels. Purely skill based. You gained points in a skill by using it (and you raised stats in the same manner). To this day I have yet to see another MMORPG that doesn't make you feel like you're on a treadmill.

Quote
- I would limit players to one character per account. If people want to play two characters and make mules and such fine. Pay me twice as much.

I would not touch a game that limited me to one character per account and neither would most serious gamers. One character per server? Maybe (and it had better be a damn good game). But only if I could re-allocate my earned skill and/or experience and only if I could master both an adventuring set of skills and a mundane set of skills on one character.

The "mule" scenario is not a good reason to get rid of additional characters as the problem is not solved, it is merely only benefiting someone able to pay more for their gaming and putting more cash in the companies pocket. People who dislike muling think of it as cheating, and I don't accept the "It's ok if players cheat so long as we (the game company) can profit from it too." idea.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: KaBurr on September 19, 2006, 01:31:28 PM: I must admit that mule characters do irritate me but that's not actually the reason I would limit people to one character per account. The reasoning is more basic - if it takes people longer to go through characters (ie right now a I'm playing a fighter but I'm not going to try a mage until I've done everything I want to do with my fighter) so they won't power through the game and all its' facets giving the game more longevity. Which is one of the most serious issues MMORPGs face today. That being said, as a member of the paying public, a "serious" gamer or not, it is completely up to you if you wish to give me money or not to play my game. That's the game I'd make. And I'd be willing to gamble that the pluses of the game would outweigh the negatives. Or to put it another way, I may lose some customers by allowing only one character per account however I'd hope that would be balanced out further into my favor by increasing the longevity of the game. I know that would be an issue that would grate on some people but I'd take that gamble.

Perhaps I'm in the minority and think that the games of today are worse than the ones who came before. I may lose my shirt if I made the game I've described. But I'd sure love to try ;D ;D

And you're right about Ultima Online. But it was preceeded by Meridian59 and MUDs which I didn't include for the sake of brevity. Kudos for catching me on that though!
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Cory Magel on September 19, 2006, 08:56:27 PM: Yeah, I listed MUD's and Mer59 up there in my long post, but UO is really the one that put online gaming on the map. EQ and many of the following ones made it more popular... and WoW blew it out of the water. Now every and their brother wants in. Bad thing is there will be many failures. Good thing is there should be some really good ones that survive. I'm waiting on Pirates of the Burning Sea and possibly Middle Earth. Pirates I have high hopes for, Middle Earth I'm not holding my breath on.

I suspect the reason most the people who don't like mules don't like them cause it's a way to hand off items from one character to another. That, unfortuantely, is not a problem that would ever be solved by getting rid of them. Your issue is more of a company/profit perspective.

As for longevity... I'm of the opinion that if a company made a really good game "getting there" (i.e. leveling up) wouldn't be the only draw to playing. A game should be fun once you get there. Ultima did this... I played that game for a few years and never really got bored with even a top end character. All the other games didn't have as much substance. I suspect if Star Wars wasn't such a level grind people would actually have more fun playing it and even stick around longer.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: KaBurr on September 20, 2006, 07:48:25 PM: I never played UO but I heard it was a fantastic game. I wish I had at least tried it.

I think there have been a lot of games out there that have come and gone and no one really even noticed. WoW was a fun game for me but after the first ten levels I was already in the been there, done that mode. I got to 60, tried some of the dungeons, and quit because it was just more of the same but at that point I was forced to suffer with other people's incompitence to do anything. I quit. And I suspect if there were any decent replacements, a lot of other people would too. What I've described in my big post is just the barest of outlines of what I'd love to see in a game. Not being able to con anything unless you had undead lore, dragon lore, fauna lore, etc, not being able to identify items without weapon/armor evaluation or a spell, no portal like travel because it shrinks the world, randomness in dungeons (like Diablo's dungeons), only being able to use certain words in your name if you were a part of a certain guild (ie. you can't use "shadow" in your name unless you join this particular assassin guild for example), a bounty hunting system for both the good AND the bad, language barriers, random questing system (no more "go talk to bob the NPC for the sword of killing quest", have in-game events that actually effect characters, allow players to be both good or evil, let people discover new spells that no one else has, allow flight and horseback combat, allow people to actually hire NPCs as shopkeepers or bodyguards or porters and give those NPCs actual personalities...there is so freak'n much that could be done I'm just bursting ath the seams with ideas....!!!! Anyone have 30 million dollars I can borrow? I want to make a really fun game ;)
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: vroomfogle on September 20, 2006, 09:40:31 PM: KaBurr - I hear what you're saying and you have some good thoughts, I would give your game a try. But I think it's going to be some time before we see a lot of those ideas. MMO's are really in their infancy, just like early D&D was just a dungeon crawl. MMORPG's are just Dungeon Crawls and are fun in their own way.

I played EQ for 2 years, got to level 30. (same group, we played once a week). I've been playing WoW since opening day, almost two years, though there would be months at a time when I wouldn't play it. But for much of that we would get together once a week and play. I hit Level 60 last week. Yep, while some of my friends are working on their 5 or 6th Level 60 guy, their 20th guy, or whatnot, I've leveled my Mage to Level 60 doing pretty much just dungeon instances that whole time.

But now that I'm level 60 I'm not sure I'm keen on continuing to play. Before 60 there was the goal of leveling, which wasn't a grind for me because we would play to have fun and 60 just ended up coming, eventually. Sure there are goals at level 60 - get new better gear, reputation, etc....but it's just not the same. I'll probably take another break until the expansion comes out, then maybe it'll be another 2 years to hit Level 70.

- Vroomfogle, Level 60 Mage (Server Khadgar)
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: KaBurr on September 20, 2006, 09:52:13 PM: I heard one idea that I'm not sure if I like. Once per day a player can click a button and he will become a randome MOB somewhere in the game. That mob can run around and collect loot and even gain experience. However you would have no way to communicate with anyone in game. As no one in game would know if that kobold they are chasing is a MOB or a player, tactics would change and any MOB would be scary. It also might be a cure for people to go become a bear or something and chase around a bunch of regular players until someone kills him instead of him going on a killing spree with his character. It's "interesting" but not sure if it's worth trying or not...
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: chalicier on September 23, 2006, 09:11:25 AM: I'm a games programmer, working for a small company in the UK. Our next big project is an MMO..

... But it's not Rolemaster.

The real issue with all of this is not how the game would work, or whether it'd be a "felleny". For starters, only businesses at present have the necessary resources to produce MMORPGs, and they won't normally just steal an easily identifiable property unless they're damn sure they'll get away with it. No, the issue is where the money would come from.

It wouldn't be ICE - they've no real reason to want to, and the expense can be crippling. (I could make an estimate of how much it would cost to make a really good RM MMO if people want.) Publishers aren't going to want to fund an MMO based upon a (from their perspective) little-known games line, particularly when they discover that it's comparatively complex and aimed at intelligent adults. Development houses are generally dangerously close to the edge anyway. So who's going to pay for it?
This is why you only see poorly-thought-out grind clones, and this is why it's always the big names and the big properties - D&D, Star Wars, et al.

All that said though, it would be an excellent basis for an online game (not least with the huge number of different options available and the numerical heavy lifting all handled behind-the-scenes). I'd personally absolutely love to work on it. But the way I see it, it's never going to happen unless there's a director at a games publisher somewhere who's a secret Rolemaster fan.

Does anyone from ICE post here? If so, what would ICE's likely response to an offer to create a RM-based MMO (or classic CRPG) be? (Assuming they had someone else's funding.)
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Cory Magel on September 23, 2006, 11:55:40 AM: I believe ICE is in talks with a game maker with the intent of licencing RM to them in order to base the foundation of the games system after it. We have no idea who those talks are progressing or if they are still ongoing at this point.

If successful I suspect it will give ICE a serious shot in the arm.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: vroomfogle on September 24, 2006, 12:00:58 PM: Quote from: Cory Magel on September 23, 2006, 11:55:40 AM
If successful I suspect it will give ICE a serious shot in the arm.

This is an awfully big IF though. The vast majority of MMO's don't even make it to release. Of those that do, the majority of them don't make it. It's like trying to become a rock star. In addition the process of making an MMO takes years.

It's definitely worth ICE pursuing, but I think it's a big gamble.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: KaBurr on September 24, 2006, 05:51:51 PM: I believe Dark Age of Camelot was based upon Rolemaster but ICE went bankrupt during the development so lots of last minute changes happened to prevent copyright infringments. This would possibly be the second game based on RM if you count that.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Cory Magel on September 25, 2006, 02:04:06 AM: I would think, unless I'm totally wrong here, that ICE would get some upfront money for the licence upon agreement and even if the game was a flop would still get something... but I'm no contract/licencing lawyer.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: pastaav on September 25, 2006, 05:01:18 AM: Quote from: KaBurr on September 24, 2006, 05:51:51 PM
I believe Dark Age of Camelot was based upon Rolemaster but ICE went bankrupt during the development so lots of last minute changes happened to prevent copyright infringments. This would possibly be the second game based on RM if you count that.

Just for information the reason old ICE finally had to close down was that scheduled license money from the Dark Age of Camelot developers did not arrive. Why they did it, is not known but it had been suggested that Tolkien Enterprise and the developers saw mutual benefits if Ironcrown ceased to exist.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Turambar on September 25, 2006, 06:01:39 AM: That is the first time I've heard a connection to DAoC in ICE's demise. The most frequent 'final nail' I've heard is that TE took (unethical?) action that led to ICE's bank(s) freezing thier accounts...so even though they did have funds to pay the bills, they couldn't access those funds.

Jason

btw- I did a quick search for information concerning DAoC and Rolemaster's relationship...and came of with the following quote from gamasutra.com:

"The initial versions of Dark Age of Camelot used the rights for a tabletop role-playing game called Rolemaster as a basis for the class and spell systems. Not long into the project, the company that created Rolemaster, Iron Crown Enterprises, filed for bankruptcy, and we lost the rights. This turned out to be good for us, however, because we were no longer required to adhere to a set of rules based on the license - although we did have to scramble for about a week to rename and retune spells and classes and otherwise clear Rolemaster content out of the game."
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: pastaav on September 25, 2006, 08:43:32 AM: If I recall correctly I heard it on the Rolemaster list when it happened. TE was the prime player, but the scheme from TE would have failed if the license money had arrived on time. I don't think there is much use in guesing what really happened, old ICE is long gone. Yet my guess is that DAoC is probably a very a minor things in ICE's desmise. Much more important is that TE forbid ICE to sell the MERP stock or to destroy it. Looking at the success of Jacksons LOTR it seems TE probably made a fortune by forcing ICE to shut down...anyway this is very off topic to discussing about Rolemaster as a MMORPG so we better drop the issue.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Guillaume on September 30, 2006, 01:33:11 AM: Quote from: pastaav on September 25, 2006, 08:43:32 AM
If I recall correctly I heard it on the Rolemaster list when it happened. TE was the prime player, but the scheme from TE would have failed if the license money had arrived on time. I don't think there is much use in guesing what really happened, old ICE is long gone. Yet my guess is that DAoC is probably a very a minor things in ICE's desmise. Much more important is that TE forbid ICE to sell the MERP stock or to destroy it. Looking at the success of Jacksons LOTR it seems TE probably made a fortune by forcing ICE to shut down...anyway this is very off topic to discussing about Rolemaster as a MMORPG so we better drop the issue.

IIRC there was something about an order from Justice to lock a bank account before the money from DAoC could be put in. I think DAoC developpers were, collateral damages of the feud between TE and ICE. And it took them more than a week to purge the game of most the RM references ( they didn't manage to remove all the references )...

As for RM &nd MMORPG, the tough thing is going the economy balancing. DDO is a nice adaptation of D&D, but it has several real problems with the economy.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: chalicier on October 13, 2006, 05:32:32 PM: Well, the latest Newsletter has certainly made things clearer as regards this thread.

So, on the one hand, WOOOOO! A Rolemaster based MMORPG!
On the other handm BOOOOOO! I'm not working on it ;D

I was looking at a really excellent MMO engine earlier and thinking "damn this would be great for RM", so here's hoping it comes out well. I'll certainly be up for the beta when(if) it arrives.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Marc R on October 13, 2006, 06:18:50 PM: ugh, I have this strange feeling I have to go dig in my spam for a new newsletter.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: magritte@shaw.ca on November 30, 2006, 07:25:45 PM: Well, this is good news. I haven't played Rolemaster (or any other P&P RPG's) regularly in over fifteen years, but I always thought Rolemaster would be a terrific basis for a CRPG. I always felt Rolemaster's biggest drawback was the amount of bookkeeping required in combat--keeping track of which players were stunned, which were bleeding and how many HP's per round they were losing, etc. It really wasn't practical to pit 7 characters against 20 orcs. But for a computer, that kind of thing is no problem.

I suppose Rolemaster doesn't have the marketing cachet of D&D, but I find that rather sad. I remember being baffled by the praise lumped onto Baldur's Gate when it came out and it seemed for a lot of people, the fact that it used D&D rules and was set in the Forgotten Realms was a big selling point. Although I played D&D intensely (more than any other RPG), I don't have any particular attachment to the rules. The 1st & 2nd edition rules allowed very limited customizing of characters; a seventh level fighter was pretty much a seventh level fighter. I much prefer the approach of character classes giving a direction to the character, but not limiting them to such an extreme degree--like in the Might & Magic series and Rolemaster. D&D finally moved in that direction in the 3rd edition. As to the Forgotten Realms, I never read the books or played D&D in that setting, and it seems a pretty generic fantasy setting to me. Don't get me wrong: some good D&D-based computer games have been made--Planescape: Torment was outstanding and Baldur's Gate II hugely better than the original--but I felt BG 1 was wildly overrated.

It would be better news to me still if it were a Neverwinter Nights style game with a DM-client and player-made content, but it's nice to see Rolemaster making an impact. It might even persuade me to try an MMORPG, though what I've read about them makes them sound kind of boring to me.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Marc R on November 30, 2006, 07:55:54 PM: Welcome to the forums.

Yeah, MMORPGs seem to be either hack-n-slash fests, or variants of checkpoint questing. (i.e. get quest from A, go to point B, perform task C, return to A for reward.)

If someone can really get the RP in there actually working, it'd be great, but a fantasy/superhero/sci fi setting and a character sheet doesn't make something roleplaying, I'm sure all of us have done RPG as a thin thread of plot connecting combats at one time or another.

At best, the MMORPGs recall RP of my early youth, and certainly dungeon crawling with a computer handling the mechanics is fun, but it's not really roleplay. . .

Then again, "massive". . . .anyone here really think they could do an open call for a roleplaying game and expect all the people who show up to actually want or be interested in roleplaying, or will you have a mixed bag of psychos, combat monsters, cardboard cameos and some roleplayers. . . .I dunno if an "open field" and "massive" environment will ever really produce roleplay. All of the best gaming groups for actual roleplay I've been in have been selective about letting people join.

If someone ever can, it'll be amazing, RPG without dealing at all with the mechanics would be sweet, but it seems like a pipe dream. . . You'd seem to either need AI, or GMs in the background playing the NPCs, and some sort of mechanic to rienforce staying in character.

Then again, "Roleplay points" would almost seem to be self defeating. (A mechanic for roleplay?)
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Vince on December 01, 2006, 05:31:22 AM: Quote from: LordMiller on October 13, 2006, 06:18:50 PM
ugh, I have this strange feeling I have to go dig in my spam for a new newsletter.

So do I... :hm:
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: magritte@shaw.ca on December 01, 2006, 08:34:42 AM: Lord Miller, have you tried any of the Neverwinter Nights "Persistent Worlds"? Some of them claim to be for hard-core roleplaying. They're not massive and can control their membership, so it could be true.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: shnar on August 05, 2007, 01:51:41 AM: I know this is an old thread, but I vaguely recall that Dark Ages of Camelot was originally going to use license Rolemaster as their system, until ICE got into money problems with Tolkien Enterprises. Would have been interesting to see such a detailed Critical system in a computer game (I hate these "Critical Success!" messages when it just does double damage. I love the detailed arm-breaking, leg-spraining crits of RM).

As for MMORPs in general, I could go for hours about how shallow they are, and did write an essay once about ROLE-playing vs. ROLL-playing (actually taking on the role of a character, vs. just rolling the dice to kill things for the all mighty Experience Point). The biggest problem is that it's very difficult to go deep when you're trying to hit a wide audience. I've always thought that a good solution would be to somehow include Player Generated content. Allow the players to craft their own quests and rewards, that way they could give more reward if you actually Roleplayed, instead of just doing xyz-action to complete the quest. MUSHes often times had something like this, a +refer type system, kind of like Kudo points (since MUSHes rarely had stats/levels).

-shnar
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Certyl on August 05, 2007, 04:09:34 AM: Quote from: KaBurr on September 20, 2006, 07:48:25 PM
I never played UO but I heard it was a fantastic game. I wish I had at least tried it.
I started playing UO jan 98, and am still playing it. Best game ever, with 10 year aniversary comming up soon.
The game is still up and running so you can try it out anytime (free 14 day trials I believe), but be warned it's a fairly complex game to get into at the start. If you start up on Catskills server, me and my guild actively help new players get their bearings, so look us up (I'm the GM of the GRI guild).

They released a new graphics engine last month, wich I personaly don't like but that might be due to me being used to the old look. But anyone used to the other mayor MMO's might feel more comfortable with it.

For free download go to http://www.uo.com/demo.html
Feel free to PM me with any and all UO questions, I'll stop hijacking this thread.
/end UO plug
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Fenrhyl Wulfson on August 05, 2007, 03:22:24 PM: Here is the point of view of someone working in the MMo industry : me.

1) RM is a great PnP game. Great PnP games can be tranformed into great video games BUT you have to build the games around the PnP rules and not force them into a game. Huge difference.

2) considering 1) and observing nearly all the MMORPG are hack'n'Slash feists or, like said earlier, quest checkpoints, you have to realize that RM cant be turned into a MMORPG like any we have seen before. Indeed, What makes RM special is that you don't have to cleave a gazillions goblins, goblin chiefs, plagued goblin chiefs, dark plagued goblin chiefs, shadowdark plagued goblin chiefs and so on and so on... to gain experience. You progress through interacting with other players and npcs, and the world itself. Combat is one interaction but there are many, many others.

3) This is implying that in order to build a MMORPG based on RM, you have to provoke a paradigm shift in the MMORPG world. A hard task.
I have a clear view of what i'd do in order to make this happen. I may be wrong though. And i would never say anything about it in a public forum. I'd rather have a meeting with my new boss and give him a sixty pages document. With a lot of drawings and schematics.

PS : would the customers follow ? granted how hard it is for original games to survive in front of dinosaurs like everquest, WoW or Lineage... i'd say they are not ready, except if the result is such a kick ass game that it would metaphorically hand the customer his ass on a silver plate.
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: windmarkbob on November 01, 2007, 04:17:19 PM: Wasn't Gemstone, a text based online game, initially based HEAVILY on a Rolemaster type of engine?

If it could be done then and there, why can't it be done here and now?
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: lizzrdus on December 07, 2007, 12:42:52 PM: The first MMORPG that added the option of being a crafting type character, is Horizons. Players get to go into the ruins of towns and villages and rebuild them. You get to rebuild bridges, roads ect. Of course, some need to stay in the locations being worked on by others to protect them from invading undead and other foul beasties....
Check it out, you may like it...
Now if only I can remember what i did with my Horizons cds....
Title: Re: Role Master As A "Massively Multiplayer On-line Role Playing Games"
Post by: Chaman on December 09, 2007, 05:27:29 AM: The reason many are Hack 'n Slash is it's easier to write the story hook & scenario, for crafters you'd have to write a hook that would for each type. The only MMO I've played was Star Wars Galaxies before the Not Gonna Exist came out, had a decent character, a level 9 crafter; I could do most of the low and a few mid-level combat quests, until the NGE; the day it came out I was killed by 2 level 1 womp rats, but I was able to get to get to the Kryat Dragon Graveyard, mainly because I wasn't pulling agro, walked around right next to at least 10 huge dragons and nothing happened.

OK, back to the crafter thing, there were seven or eight crafting professions, each with a different take on the crafter concept, some are similar enough they could share quests, but you're still looking at scripting around 4 quests. In comparison, there's around the same number of combat oriented professions that can share the same quest, not to mention there are a lot of player who are only interested in combat. What really irked me was when they released the Mustafa expansion, before the NGE I had a change to take advantage; but after, I had to make a new character and grind him up so that I could play an expansion I'd paid for. Never did go to Mustafa; will never play SWG or another sony MMO ever.

Personally, I'd rather see each profession get a couple tailored quests.

I don't agree with level requirements on gear; so what the 1st level has a tricked out sniper rifle, he's still not as good as a high level sniper with decent sniper rifle. Besides, PKers might be more cautious if low-level characters have a decent way to even the odds.

Here's my thoughts on controlling bad players:
you get targeted by a PKer and are killed, you get to put a bounty on them, gives those bounty hunters something to do. If they're really bad PKers the bounties will rise rather quickly. Multiple bounties on a character can be set to trip a flag at some level and allow the game to make him an outlaw; he looses all guild affiliations and any professional recognition by the government (i.e., a bounty hunter would loose his status) for really incouragable players, public humiliation: put him in stocks for an hour and allow others to lob fruit at him, tattoo him, give him a wonderful new haircut or wardrobe that truely flatters him, whatever.

RM is a good system to base an MMO on, it's just defining the characters that's the rough part

Things I would consider neccessary:
- Do not allow players to build races
- Do not use randoms to generate stats, it's too easy to just dump a character because his rolls suck, but if you have a set number of points you assign and move on.
- On a similar vein, either reduce the effect that randoms have on potentials or hide the fact that there are potentials from the players. They'll see their stats rise but won't know what the limits are, by the time they know they've hit their limits (5th to 7th level) they've already racked up a lot of time in the game.
- If talents & flaws are used most of the points should be: pre-spent based on race/profession or randomized or some combination; Again, the player should be unaware of this mechanic, I'd phase in the benefits/loses over the course of a couple days worth of actual play.
- Do not allow the players PC to generate any randoms that you will actually use.

There's a number of great books on design and concepts of MMOs, but they are $40+ each