Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => HARP => Topic started by: Bruce on September 18, 2013, 12:38:07 AM
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This is something that has been on my mind for a few years now.
How does magic affect your world? Most people that I have met, like me, assume magic is just an added affect to how we see our world in a fantasy setting. Everything is basically the same; there is steel and iron and wood and other basic materials that are comprised of the same basic elements we have in our world. But honestly if there was magic how would it affect those basic elements? How would the basic materials work differently? For balance and play issues I think there should always be plentiful of the mundane materials and elements. But I think there should be enhanced versions available. Sort of like the fictional "adamantium" woven into a popular heroes skeleton. Take for example the materials presented in Shadow World like Eog and Laen to name a couple.
Here is an idea I had one day while perusing a book on the elements. There are several gases that are affected by different things in our natural world. In the fantasy world those gases might work differently. For example one gas, neon possibly, might be a natural detector of magic, or things from other planes, or demons, or angels. Do you think this would be a cool addition to HARP/Rolemaster?
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I feel it is a good idea, but when using common materials, it can get messy. Forexample Neon makes up a fraction of a percent of the atmosphere. So if it is charged by magic to glow (I think that would be the intent?) then everything magical glows... If hydrogen turns blue when orcs are around...orcs glow blue AND people, when near orcs, will turn blueish...
With the other special materials, such as Eog and Lean the trick is: they are rare and not commonly found in the atmosphere or in every living thing. Locked away like that you don't get odd results as I described above. It is a cool idea however and I propose that maybe a Guild Companion article on the subject might contain new gases, fluids and sloids that have special effects, or that certain mixes of gases might react to nearby influences from magic power, or other worldly beings.
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Socially, Howard Tayler (schlockmercenary.com) has the "Donkey Rule." If it becomes easier to do something with magic, on a cultural scale, than to have a donkey do it, it will fundamentally change your society.
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Ok, I'm a dunce..... Most of what I said above is good except for the comment about the metals and such from Shadow World being implemented into HARP. I found them in Martial Law. I could try and say it was because I just recently got the revised version, but I also found them in the older Martial Law book published in 2003/4.
I have no excuse......
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I feel it is a good idea, but when using common materials, it can get messy. Forexample Neon makes up a fraction of a percent of the atmosphere. So if it is charged by magic to glow (I think that would be the intent?) then everything magical glows... If hydrogen turns blue when orcs are around...orcs glow blue AND people, when near orcs, will turn blueish...
True. What about concentrated deposits? Where you would need a certain density of the element to actually have any real affect? Kind of like in the real world. I mean the natural element gases in our world have other effects when applied with certain parameters in a given situation. In our real world we don't see neon gases glowing everywhere we go and we wouldn't in a fantasy world either. Correct me if I am wrong (which I may be) but the affects we see in our world is when you have contained and concentrated amounts of said gases. What I meant from my original post above is that in a fantasy world maybe the elements would react differently, especially to magic. Maybe in a fantasy world the elements are what gives magic its form?
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True. What about concentrated deposits? Where you would need a certain density of the element to actually have any real affect? Kind of like in the real world.
This was what I was thinking. It could also be how mages are able to Sense Magic, they develop the ability to read these auras, even the normally unseen ones when there specific gas is in such a low concentration.
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This was what I was thinking. It could also be how mages are able to Sense Magic, they develop the ability to read these auras, even the normally unseen ones when there specific gas is in such a low concentration.
hmmmm...... Your getting my creative gears grinding again. Interestingly enough this would also help explain a lot of " theoretical magical phenomenon" in a fantasy world. Not to mention giving the GM plenty of ideas for plot hooks and what not. Some talents could be described as side affects of overexposure, kind of like radiation exposure, mutations in a sense.
Bruce
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Oh yeah, I long ago equated magic to radiation (I am a Gamma World junky, so not surprising) and special powers to mutations. But, for the typical fantasy world that did not begin from WW3, magic and its related phenomenon could be attributed to all sorts of natural and environmental factors - just like it has in our world. Only in the fantasy world, there is something else there that is actually the real magic.
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I had it that the flow of mana is something you can't see, but if you know what you are looking for you can see its effects. In the same way, if you and a trained and experienced meteorologist both look at the sky, you both see exactly the same thing... but the information you glean from what you see is likely to be vastly different.
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I prefer to keep magic, well, magical. Even to magicians it's part art and part science, so to speak. Like a blacksmith might understand that burning certain coals while welding iron makes steel, so too a magician might understand that a combination of certain symbols, gestures, and words might result in a certain effect. That same blacksmith doesn't know anything about carbon atoms, though, and need not to wield his craft.
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Fine and good. Nonetheless, you and he can look at the same piece of steel heating in his forge, and the color will tell him a whole bunch of things that it doesn't tell you.... just the same as you and the meteorologist looking at the sky in the example above. The blacksmith probably knows a fair amount of metallurgy... he just doesn't know he knows it, and doesn't call it by that name, because he learned it by watching and doing rather than in a classroom, and learned it at the forge rather than from a book. The phrase "body centered cubic lattice" means nothing at all to him.... and yet he uses his knowledge of it every day.
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I had it that the flow of mana is something you can't see, but if you know what you are looking for you can see its effects. In the same way, if you and a trained and experienced meteorologist both look at the sky, you both see exactly the same thing... but the information you glean from what you see is likely to be vastly different.
Examples: When someone who can sense magic looks at a piece of ground and sees a straight line where a plant that is typically found only in high magic areas is suddenly common and lush, fading out to either side both in numbers and health, he considers it likely there is a ley line there. You see the exact same thing, but not knowing its significance, you draw no conclusions from what you see.
Someone who can sense magic looks at a Personal mana spellcaster and notes that his hair does not move with body motion and local breezes in quite the same way as that of everyone around him. Nothing impossible, but less probable than usual. In other words, extremely minor Fortean effects. When he begins casting a spell, the tendency for local items (tree leaves, leaves on the ground, dust) to act in ways not quite natural to the local environment extends itself some distance around him. Say, every tree within 25' loses half a dozen leaves at precisely the same moment. The effect is quite subtle, so if you aren't looking carefully you won't notice it at all (which accounts for the use of normal Perception skill, but at a penalty). Even if you do notice, if you don't have the knowledge which tells you of its significance, once again you draw no conclusions from what you see, while he does.
See what I mean? It has nothing to do with knowing about atoms, or the scientific method, or anything like that. It's just the ability to infer things from what you see that those without your knowledge do not. The basis of it in the case of my world setting is the assumption that all magic of any kind has what I call "splash." That is, any magic alters the structure of local reality to some degree, causing things that are to some degree improbable given the local baseline of reality to become commonplace, in direct proportion to the degree of alteration. In other words, Fortean effects. Since any spellcaster takes care to try to alter reality only to the degree and in the manner he wishes, normally such effects are very small and aren't noticed unless you are both paying attention and know what you are looking for. They only exist at all to the degree the caster's control of reality is less than perfect. However, reality being huge, complex and interdependent, nobody's control is 100% perfect, there will always be unintended consequences of some sort. The trick is being able to spot which is the normal chaos of local reality and which is induced by magic use.
Of course, when a spell fails, all that can no longer be taken for granted. In addition to the "normal" effects of failure listed on the chart, a spellcaster in a temperate forest during high summer who fails a casting may find 50 pounds of snow falling on him out of a tree. The worse the failure, the more improbable the effects will be in context of local reality.
:o
Just because it's "magical" doesn't mean it mustn't make any sense. 8)
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GOF, what you are describing sounds more like training than anything else. With Magic Sense, it is assumed to be a mystical ability that those without it cannot do (unless they get a temp ability from a spell or item or whatever), not just some special skill they learn. Even with the radiation idea I postulated, it would take someone with the special ability to sense it, meaning they likely have mutated eyes and/or brain. Though, it doesn't need to be explained, and I kind of actually like my magic to be largely unexplainable anyway.
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I do treat it as training. Maybe it is "assumed to be a mystical ability" by others... but not by me. To do so I think doesn't make it likely they have mutated eyes and/or brain, it becomes utterly necessary. I say that... it's not absolutely guaranteed to be vision, but yes, there isn't any way for that to work without some form of sensory mutation, especially since the majority of what is nominally the same species do not have that sense.
To me, if it's unexplainable, it doesn't make any sense for it to be consistent and predictable across professions, races and centuries. It works exactly the same way, every time, for everyone, forever, and yet curious researchers will never, ever find the common denominators of how it meshes with normal reality? That one doesn't fit into my head.
But if it wasn't consistent and predictable, nobody would play a spellcaster because they wouldn't be able to rely on their results.
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I had it that the flow of mana is something you can't see, but if you know what you are looking for you can see its effects. In the same way, if you and a trained and experienced meteorologist both look at the sky, you both see exactly the same thing... but the information you glean from what you see is likely to be vastly different.
Examples: When someone who can sense magic looks at a piece of ground and sees a straight line where a plant that is typically found only in high magic areas is suddenly common and lush, fading out to either side both in numbers and health, he considers it likely there is a ley line there. You see the exact same thing, but not knowing its significance, you draw no conclusions from what you see.
Someone who can sense magic looks at a Personal mana spellcaster and notes that his hair does not move with body motion and local breezes in quite the same way as that of everyone around him. Nothing impossible, but less probable than usual. In other words, extremely minor Fortean effects. When he begins casting a spell, the tendency for local items (tree leaves, leaves on the ground, dust) to act in ways not quite natural to the local environment extends itself some distance around him. Say, every tree within 25' loses half a dozen leaves at precisely the same moment. The effect is quite subtle, so if you aren't looking carefully you won't notice it at all (which accounts for the use of normal Perception skill, but at a penalty). Even if you do notice, if you don't have the knowledge which tells you of its significance, once again you draw no conclusions from what you see, while he does.
See what I mean? It has nothing to do with knowing about atoms, or the scientific method, or anything like that. It's just the ability to infer things from what you see that those without your knowledge do not. The basis of it in the case of my world setting is the assumption that all magic of any kind has what I call "splash." That is, any magic alters the structure of local reality to some degree, causing things that are to some degree improbable given the local baseline of reality to become commonplace, in direct proportion to the degree of alteration. In other words, Fortean effects. Since any spellcaster takes care to try to alter reality only to the degree and in the manner he wishes, normally such effects are very small and aren't noticed unless you are both paying attention and know what you are looking for. They only exist at all to the degree the caster's control of reality is less than perfect. However, reality being huge, complex and interdependent, nobody's control is 100% perfect, there will always be unintended consequences of some sort. The trick is being able to spot which is the normal chaos of local reality and which is induced by magic use.
Of course, when a spell fails, all that can no longer be taken for granted. In addition to the "normal" effects of failure listed on the chart, a spellcaster in a temperate forest during high summer who fails a casting may find 50 pounds of snow falling on him out of a tree. The worse the failure, the more improbable the effects will be in context of local reality.
:o
Just because it's "magical" doesn't mean it mustn't make any sense. 8)
GoF i love your idea.. points for you
oh and by the way.. I'm stealing it ..
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wait..what happened to idea points!?!?
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But if it wasn't consistent and predictable, nobody would play a spellcaster because they wouldn't be able to rely on their results.
We all know this is an artifact of being a game, players would scream and shout if you enforced a rule that there was a 25% chance of each spell going haywire.
But the way I, not get around this exactly, but try to keep magic somewhat mystical is by enforcing the idea that a spell does what it does because the mage believes that is what it does. They believe this because this is how they were trained. Only through great training are mages able to alter this (i.e. through Spellmastery), and generally only the greatest of mages are able to do that for more than a few spells/spell lists. I like to say that gods are those beings that have come to the complete understanding of this fact, and are able to just work magic through willpower and imagination alone. (Obviously, one of the first things someone of such ability is likely to do is grant themselves immortality. ;) )
Another way to look at magic as being mystical and not a science (though I am not totally against that idea, it can be fun to) is by just not being able to understand how/why it does what it does. Why does essaence do all the remarkable things it does? If no one can answer that, there is still an element of the mystical there. Though, granted, not a big one, and not one that is likely going to be addressed in the average campaign.
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I try to keep magic somewhat mystical, but I do it by using imagery and the concept above. All magic has "splash," and the less perfect your control, the more atypical the splash is likely to be. So if you cast a fireball and avoid the failure range by one point, your fireball works..... and every square inch of your body is now covered in melting frost, even under your clothes.
You cast a spell and have a minor failure, not even enough to lose the PPs or anything, just enough to delay the spell or make you start the casting over.... and find yourself standing in the midst of a gentle rain of 10,000 tiny brass sequins.
:o
oh and by the way.. I'm stealing it ..
You're welcome. Hope you have fun with it. It may help if you read the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series, particularly the last one, Mostly Harmless, where they go into the idea of "moving along the probability axis" in greater depth.
Personally I think it's entirely appropriate that if someone casts an OMG level spell and fails badly that suddenly there's an infinite number of monkeys wanting to discuss with him this script for Hamlet they've worked out. If the spell is a "world-wrecker" and he fails badly, I think it's entirely appropriate that the sky that night glows faintly from the atoms of his body heating as they leave the atmosphere.
::)
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"Caster's skin turns bright, intense _____(pick a color) fading into full intensity over the course of (# of PPs invested in the spell) minutes. Color then fades back to normal over the course of (# of PPs invested in the spell) hours."
The idea is simple, but it takes some practice to get comfortable with it. Imagine something that is no more improbable in the context of normal reality than the spell effect the guy was trying to create. When you consider how unlikely you are to ever see someone have a flame spring from their fingertip, that is sufficient to light a pipe pr a campfire, and will burn your fingers but doesn't burn his... and then stop and think about just how low level and dirt simple an Ignite cantrip is in the context of the game... really, you have all the latitude to let your imagination play that you could possibly ask for.
;)
The roll for the spell (plus mods) is directly proportional to the perfection of the caster's control over the primary improbability for which he was aiming... and inversely proportional to the amount of uncontrolled incidental effects. A really well cast spell is not just one that creates the fireball, but avoids creating all kinds of other stuff you don't want.
But if it wasn't consistent and predictable, nobody would play a spellcaster because they wouldn't be able to rely on their results.
We all know this is an artifact of being a game, players would scream and shout if you enforced a rule that there was a 25% chance of each spell going haywire.
It is, but is that all it is? In RL, would people consistently continue to use something that they couldn't rely on their results? The game mechanic is there because it's in human nature, no?
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All those examples are quite funny, but I would only want to use something so humorous every once in a while, as I like to keep things a little more serious - there tends to be enough humor floating around the game table.
It is, but is that all it is? In RL, would people consistently continue to use something that they couldn't rely on their results? The game mechanic is there because it's in human nature, no?
Sure, I am not saying I want to make magic so unpredictable as to be unplayable (I kind of like it somewhat predictable, just also somewhat mysterious) just that the main reason for the regular effects of magic is so that mages can be playable in the game.
But back to the main point, I would say magic affects a game world (mine and others) the same way technology affects our world, but making otherwise impossible things, possible. Phones = telepathy, cameras = clairvoyance, planes = fly spell, etc...
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Sure. Using magic is one of those "Huh? How'd he do that?" things in much the same way as cooking a 16 lb. turkey in 4 minutes by hanging it in the focus of a military radar.
:o
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Sure. Using magic is one of those "Huh? How'd he do that?" things in much the same way as cooking a 16 lb. turkey in 4 minutes by hanging it in the focus of a military radar.
:o
I wish I would have thought of that when I was in the Marine Corps!!! :bang:
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I wish I would have thought of that when I was in the Marine Corps!!!
They've done similar things in the navy.... but no one would eat it, or should for that matter...lol....
On subject, this is exactly where I wanted this discussion to go, thanks people! Though I only asked how it affected the materials in your games, this is the root of the subject.
In every game I have played (including mine) magic is always a mystical force, that many people don't understand, and don't use. But in "reality" magic is a replacement for technology, so how come you don't see "common" household uses for magic? I know it can be explained through the un-played events of, no diseases (black plague), no common hygiene problems of the middle or dark ages (lice, tooth rot, etc..), but to me those are cop-outs or the easy way out. So the question has now morphed to "How to make magic common in a fantasy world without making it "common"? Or to predictable/not mystical enough.
One way is, what our ancestors considered magic (charms, totems, trinkets, love potions, etc..) and superstitions, is actually real and active magic in a fantasy world. Magic that is used by the common folk. Okay, some people still believe in some of that stuff, apologies if I offended anyone. :D
In "reality" how many simple shop owners or home owners, or even street people, just might happen to have a small trinket that tells them when active magic is near (e.g. a bell)? Would something like this horribly change the dynamics of the game?
I honestly don't think it would if you apply balance to it. Most of the "magic" like that would be "cantrips" or cantrip like magic. Very basic and doesn't always work as well as it should.
Thoughts?
I know I did, I was just about to write a book on here......
Bruce
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[tangent]It would have just been awesome to do.[/tangent]
The main reason we don't see the "real" effects of magic in most game settings/systems is because trying to extrapolate what those societies would be like is very difficult. Also, more importantly, it would make it more difficult for GMs to make adventures/campaign/stories within such settings. Humans definitely tend to take the path of least resistance.
You might want to look into the article about this subject called, The Social Implications of Magic. I am sure someone here can point to its location, as I have forgotten.
Those questions are the same ones I have been asking myself for the last 10+ years, and they don't stop at what magic does to a society (because, like I and others have said, it could just take the place of technology so an almost direct swap could be done), but what does the inclusion of so many threats do? (But that has been discussed before and is topic for another thread.)
The way I look at it with considering a setting based on the Rolemaster rules, is that it would be a little like the [Magic] World at War series by Harry Turtledove. In it, there was a tailor character who used magic to help him do his job, as well as other professions operating like that. Also, the basic weapon of a trooper wasn't a sword or spear or bow, but a magic rod that fired an energy beam and was powered by magic. (They usually got power from a "recharging station", but could be powered through life force - by sacrificing the victim.) There were even huge magical cannons! Now, I am not so sure if I would go so far as to supply whole armies with "magic rifles", but the idea that magic would be used by non-adventurers is one I really like and think is the most "realistic."
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You might want to look into the article about this subject called, The Social Implications of Magic. I am sure someone here can point to its location, as I have forgotten.
Sounds interesting so I looked it up on google. 90% of the search results were about magic mushrooms. The other 10% pointed me to the Guild Companion articles. Are those articles what you were talking about? The articles are a theory on how certain spell lists have an affect on the fantasy world or as the author R. Dan Henry put it "the primary focus is on the commercial or societal use of spells in order to see how they might influence the shape of a culture that employs them".
Is this what you were talking about? If so the articles seem interesting and when I find the time I will go about reading them.
Bruce
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Yep, those are the ones. The spells used for the examples are from RMSS. This is the first one, I think:
http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2007/oct/openchanneling.html
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Sure. Using magic is one of those "Huh? How'd he do that?" things in much the same way as cooking a 16 lb. turkey in 4 minutes by hanging it in the focus of a military radar.
:o
I wish I would have thought of that when I was in the Marine Corps!!! :bang:
When I was in the Navy, the firecontrolmen supposedly did think of that. I wasn't there for it, and you know what they say about sailor stories, so... no bets one way or another on the truth or falsehood of it.
All those examples are quite funny, but I would only want to use something so humorous every once in a while, as I like to keep things a little more serious - there tends to be enough humor floating around the game table.
I'll grant you, that's difficult to avoid. "Splash effects" are, by definition, things that are out of context with local reality. They may or may not be inherently harmful according to the destructiveness of the intended (primary) effect, the amount of power pumped into it, and the degree of failure. But even when they are positively lethal, being by nature improbable events they still tend to be funny to those who survive.
Well, I say that... the dwarf fighter who got polymorphed into a tall, willowy elf chick with rainbow colored hair will probably never really appreciate the humor of it, but there's just no helping some people.
8)
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It might be interesting to see ICE come up with a new field guide, maybe: "Magical societies: A Field guide". It's probably something no other game company has come out with, at least not recently. Or maybe it could be a part of a "Gamemastering: A Field Guide" book....... ;D
But ICE does have more pressing things to get produced and out on the proverbial shelves for now, of which I am highly anticipating.
Who knows if we come up with enough info on here as to how GM's handles magic affecting their game world, we might get their attention.
Bruce
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Bruce,
Just to let you know, we do read every post made on the forums and any ideas or concepts that are put forth are considered either for direct ideas or inspirational. HARP and Rolemaster both have extensive project lists right now, but that doesn't mean we won't consider new project ideas and either put them in queue for future development or if the right person steps up, consider it for immediate development.
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I wish I would have thought of that when I was in the Marine Corps!!!
They've done similar things in the navy.... but no one would eat it, or should for that matter...lol....
I'm not gonna make any bets. I get a distinct impression that dodging bullets for a living tends to skew one's definition of "that's bad for you."
Go figure. ::)
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Sure, I am not saying I want to make magic so unpredictable as to be unplayable (I kind of like it somewhat predictable, just also somewhat mysterious) just that the main reason for the regular effects of magic is so that mages can be playable in the game.
Sure. Every GM wants it "somewhat predictable, just also somewhat mysterious." The problem is that should only be mysterious to those who don't use it and don't understand it, it shouldn't be mysterious to the guy who has been using it to make his living for decades now... in the same way the guy who has been a blacksmith for decades knows things the bright young guy with a degree in metallurgy won't find in his books.
It becomes something of a challenge when, as in an RPG, that bone-stupid green-as-grass fighter who "I dunno from magic" and the guy who has made his living from magic for 50 years and has been teaching others how to make a living off it for 20 may be played by the same guy.
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... in the same way the guy who has been a blacksmith for decades knows things the bright young guy with a degree in metallurgy won't find in his books.
I think this is where we fundamentally depart on how we look at magic; I will not equate magic to a mundane profession like blacksmithing. I think working magic is like always being on the cutting edge of science where there are formulas, but also mysteries and unknowns - even if you have been at it for 4 or 5 decades/centuries.
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I think this is where we fundamentally depart on how we look at magic; I will not equate magic to a mundane profession like blacksmithing. I think working magic is like always being on the cutting edge of science where there are formulas, but also mysteries and unknowns - even if you have been at it for 4 or 5 decades/centuries.
I'd love that if I could see a way to make it work, but for me it would require the game setting to have fewer spells available at the beginning than at points later in the setting timeline. The reason there are "mysteries and unknowns" at the cutting edge is because the edge keeps getting pushed back. If I have been at it for 50 years, that doesn't mean I'm in the same place as the guy who taught me was when he'd been doing it 50 years. On the contrary, it most certainly means I am not in the same place. His "mysteries and unknowns" were my school problems.
TL;DR - The only way I see to reconcile that is to build a magic progression tree/web of some sort into your magic system for the whole setting, not just for the individual character's career.
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Why is there "splash"?
Because the caster has chosen, constructed and tested an alternate probability, and meshed it in as perfectly as possible with the reality in which he is standing, in casting time x 2 seconds.
Rush jobs are always glitchy.
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I'd love that if I could see a way to make it work, but for me it would require the game setting to have fewer spells available at the beginning than at points later in the setting timeline. The reason there are "mysteries and unknowns" at the cutting edge is because the edge keeps getting pushed back. If I have been at it for 50 years, that doesn't mean I'm in the same place as the guy who taught me was when he'd been doing it 50 years. On the contrary, it most certainly means I am not in the same place. His "mysteries and unknowns" were my school problems.
And a master physicist doesn't have anything of mystery to dig into? Sure, the archmage doesn't have the same problems as the novice, but there are still mysteries for such an accomplished magician, it is just that their mysteries are seriously complex, in comparison. And just like a master mathematician today, one can always make a mistake in basic adding and subtraction.
TL;DR - The only way I see to reconcile that is to build a magic progression tree/web of some sort into your magic system for the whole setting, not just for the individual character's career.
Sure, you could do something like that, but it is easier to just build in a certain amount of error into the magic system. Yeah, we all like to succeed all the time like to have the "magic missile" always do X, but with magic not being a science, but more of an art (in some peoples gaming ideology), there should/could be always that problem of the magic going bonkers - especially since the majority of the time PCs will be casting under some sort of pressure/stress. It could also be as simple as bringing in rules like Dark Heresy, where the more power one uses the greater the chance of causing something to happen, including possibly attracting unwanted attention from some nasty outsiders. (To attain great heights, one must risk great falls.)
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And a master physicist doesn't have anything of mystery to dig into?
Sure he does. That's the whole point. The master physicist solves mysteries and teaches the solutions to his students, but there are always more mysteries, so when those students are old masters, they are facing mysteries their teacher never dreamed of.
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But in "reality" magic is a replacement for technology, so how come you don't see "common" household uses for magic?
I guess the reason I look at it that way is because I spent so many years working as a wizard, that is, a stagehand.
Think about it. The crew and I show up at an empty, bland hotel ballroom. Over the next day or three we make it over into a magical wonderland. Then the company that wanted it built has whatever function in it, and after they're gone.... we make it all vanish. We take cheap lumber, tape, paint and LOTS of screws, and turn it into the bridge of the Enterprise.... or Rivendell.... or the Temple of Solomon.
So yeah, I use the Arthur C. Clarke definition of magic, and define "magic user" as someone who understands enough "Quantum Reality Theory" to realize his own brain constantly changes reality in tiny ways whether he likes it or not... so for his own safety he may as well learn to be good at it and get the changes he wants. It's just as "magical," but no more, than an old carpenter's ability to drive a 16d nail in a single stroke, time after time. If you don't know how he does it you say "Wow!," but if you do, you just say, "Yeah, and...?"
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I believe I've sort of solved Bruce's problem with magic not becoming common with my setting makeup (we use RMSS, but theory is all the same really).
Roughly 20% of the population actually have magical talent, but the vast majority of them just don't realize or admit it. They are the town healer/doctor who is simply very good at what he does, or the town animal handler that has an uncanny knack for worth with animals, or the nun who gives out 'protection' trinkets, or the 'witch' who makes potions/brews, etc.
Part of the reason the ones who realize they have an 'unnatural' talent stay quiet about it is because, in that world, it is considered unnatural. There are religions that will hunt you down and kill you if they can (if they found out, or sometimes even just suspected someone of magic use). They think you are in league with demons and such.
Only the very worldly realize it's as common as it is. Still, only very limited use (a open/closed spell list or two) is common. Once you get into Semi, Pure, Hybrid and Arcane users the number gets exponentially smaller with each power level. So full on powerful wizards openly tossing around lightning bolts make for, literally, legendary figures.
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I believe I've sort of solved Bruce's problem with magic not becoming common with my setting makeup (we use RMSS, but theory is all the same really).
It wasn't really a problem per say, I simply wanted to see how people handled it in their games. It was more of a probing question to see if there was a better way.
And I do like how you handle it, I might use some of those ideas for my game.
This topic also led into my theory of how the natural elements and the world around them are affected by magic. This may be a project for me sometime in the future. A few years ago I read a book on the elements and my gamers mind started grinding again... I have tables around here somewhere with all the elements (and their perspective scientific numbers) in it with some suggestions for a magic infused world. Some of our natural elements are actually pretty cool in our mundane world, how cool they would be in a fantasy world........ As a rule the elements aren't all empowered with magic, they sometimes simply react to it in different ways.
Bruce
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Part of the reason the ones who realize they have an 'unnatural' talent stay quiet about it is because, in that world, it is considered unnatural. There are religions that will hunt you down and kill you if they can (if they found out, or sometimes even just suspected someone of magic use). They think you are in league with demons and such.
I find this way of "controlling" magic-users to be way unfair for the magic-users, and not in the way you think. How on Earth can there be 20% of the population able to do magic - and I am assuming that a certain percentage of that number are full blown magicians, sorcerers, etc... as well as the semis - and they allow such a thing to come to pass? Where they all just absent the day that came up to vote? Can no two or more of them stay within 100' of each other so no unions or cabals or guilds could form? People able to toss fireballs and lightning bolts around don't tend to stay under anyone's thumb for any real length of time, specially if they can come together in any numbers - and would have non-mages working for them, as well.
The only way I see something like this happening for any long period (it could go for a while, but eventually, just like with technology, the oppressors will be overcome) is if the god (or gods) demanding the deaths of mages have an active hand in this and they are just way too powerful for any mage to deal with. Otherwise, you will eventually get some powerful mages who would put together forces of their own and they would go to crush the priests. While they may not win at first, eventually they will, that is the nature of the beast. So, if you have this as part of your world, I assume it is just a certain period of its history. (Though, of course, a GM may do as they wish with their world, it just isn't "realistic" to assume a static society based upon the domination and/or annihilation of around 20% of its population - not for long anyway.)
I guess I just prefer things to be more organic and not so forced or artificial, as that seems to be to me. Also remember, that religions to us seem to be these massive organizations that controls millions of peoples lives, and it is natural to think such would be the case in a fantasy world with actual "proof" of gods. But, I do not think we should be using Christianity or Islam or Judaism as templates for fantasy religions, instead look to the pantheon religions like the Greek and Norse Gods. They held sway over much smaller groups of people, not even known a few hundred miles away - the gods of those people probably didn't like any proselytizing of other gods in "their" lands. In fact, I think the vast majority of gods would be too busy dealing with the conflicts between each other and their clergies to do much about the mages in the world. (Of course, all of this is predicated upon having a pantheon of gods in the first place. ;D)
One other thing: with all the dang monsters in the world, why would a society willingly decide to throw away what is likely their greatest defense? Sounds like taking away your soldiers weapons when you know the enemy is outside the wire. (But I guess we can chalk this up to human - or near-human -personalities overriding common sense, it happens all the time.)
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Part of the reason the ones who realize they have an 'unnatural' talent stay quiet about it is because, in that world, it is considered unnatural. There are religions that will hunt you down and kill you if they can (if they found out, or sometimes even just suspected someone of magic use). They think you are in league with demons and such.
I find this way of "controlling" magic-users to be way unfair for the magic-users, and not in the way you think. How on Earth can there be 20% of the population able to do magic - and I am assuming that a certain percentage of that number are full blown magicians, sorcerers, etc... as well as the semis - and they allow such a thing to come to pass? Where they all just absent the day that came up to vote? Can no two or more of them stay within 100' of each other so no unions or cabals or guilds could form? People able to toss fireballs and lightning bolts around don't tend to stay under anyone's thumb for any real length of time, specially if they can come together in any numbers - and would have non-mages working for them, as well.
The vast majority of those using magic do not realize they are using magic. So the local healer who has an uncanny knack for healing wounds is unwittingly using open/closed healing related lists without actually knowing that's what they are doing. The vast majority of magic is innate talent which is self-taught in ignorance - they just know they have a 'feel' for what they are doing.
The only way I see something like this happening for any long period (it could go for a while, but eventually, just like with technology, the oppressors will be overcome) is if the god (or gods) demanding the deaths of mages have an active hand in this and they are just way too powerful for any mage to deal with. Otherwise, you will eventually get some powerful mages who would put together forces of their own and they would go to crush the priests. While they may not win at first, eventually they will, that is the nature of the beast. So, if you have this as part of your world, I assume it is just a certain period of its history. (Though, of course, a GM may do as they wish with their world, it just isn't "realistic" to assume a static society based upon the domination and/or annihilation of around 20% of its population - not for long anyway.)
You seem to be applying your own settings logic to mine. There's no oppression needed for my theory. Only the setting driven guideline that the level of magical ability required to be anything more than fairly limited is simply naturally unusual.
Take dragons in my setting for example. They exist, but they are not exactly common, are intelligent, and avoid being seen, let alone in large population centers, for the most part. I could go into way more detail, but it's all beside the point (and possible spoilers for those I play with). The point is the majority of the population see them as mythical. They've only heard stories about them, second-hand at best. They aren't quite 'real' to them until they've actually seen one. That doesn't mean there's some force oppressing them... :)
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Take dragons in my setting for example. They exist, but they are not exactly common, are intelligent, and avoid being seen, let alone in large population centers, for the most part. I could go into way more detail, but it's all beside the point (and possible spoilers for those I play with). The point is the majority of the population see them as mythical. They've only heard stories about them, second-hand at best. They aren't quite 'real' to them until they've actually seen one. That doesn't mean there's some force oppressing them... :)
Gnomes are like that in my setting. They avoid virtually all contact with other races and for the majority of the worlds population, Gnomes are magical creatures from legends in the sense of mythology. Gnomes can be player characters and are most often mistaken for aged Halflings as most people won't even believe they are Gnomes. People are more apt to believe in dragons then they are to believe in Gnomes.
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The vast majority of those using magic do not realize they are using magic. So the local healer who has an uncanny knack for healing wounds is unwittingly using open/closed healing related lists without actually knowing that's what they are doing. The vast majority of magic is innate talent which is self-taught in ignorance - they just know they have a 'feel' for what they are doing.
Another thing that doesn't make sense. I am assuming that there is no "Detect Magic" in your world, otherwise, long ago it would have been figured out what people are doing. My favorite series The Wheel of Time has this exact situation in it. in the very first book, The Eye of The World, one of the characters is the village "wise-woman" (called a Wisdom there), who is responsible for the healing of villagers, among other things. She is super good at this, able to heal people in miraculous fashion, not knowing she is channeling (magic in that series) all the while. This ignorance comes to a screeching halt when an actual Aes Sedai, a full channeler (magician for all intents and purposes), comes to the village. That is as long as ignorance lasts, right up until someone who knows shows up and is willing to say something. In a world in which 20% of the population (your number) does some form of magic, it would happen very quickly, I believe.
You seem to be applying your own settings logic to mine.
No, I am applying a "realistic" ideology to the situation; extrapolating a natural course of events given the parameters stated.
For people to continue performing magic without their knowledge requires an absence of magic detection. As that is one of the basic abilities of mages, I don't see it happening for long. Take Shadowrun as an example: magic returns, adepts start doing things but don't know what it is - for a while. Then a full mage comes along, watches them, and goes, "Hey. Do you know you are doing magic? Well, you are." [Insert, "The More You Know" PSA here.]
Take dragons in my setting for example. They exist, but they are not exactly common, are intelligent, and avoid being seen, let alone in large population centers, for the most part. I could go into way more detail, but it's all beside the point (and possible spoilers for those I play with). The point is the majority of the population see them as mythical. They've only heard stories about them, second-hand at best. They aren't quite 'real' to them until they've actually seen one. That doesn't mean there's some force oppressing them... :)
You are also talking about a species of highly intelligent and powerful beings that are actively trying to hide. That is a far different thing from some people doing something and just not realizing it.
It seems to me that you just need to go ahead and accept the fact that you are artificially enforcing a rule, or situation, upon your game world and it is OK. It is a tool by which you are telling a story. Just understand that it is by no means "realistic." :)
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Another thing that doesn't make sense. I am assuming that there is no "Detect Magic" in your world, otherwise, long ago it would have been figured out what people are doing.
There's a common phrase about the word assume. ;)
Again, you're applying your own theory to my setting, a setting you know very little about. When common magic is very low powered very very rarely is someone of low magical talent going to innately learn how to detect magic. Assuming they do what are the odds that that person is going to run around, essentially, accusing very low end magic users of witchcraft? Now, there are those few who can. Maybe they don't want to 'out' everyone. Maybe they are afraid they themselves will get accused. Maybe when they do people think THEY are the crazy one - if you come to a town where a healer has helped many of them and basically tell them that person is in league with the devil who's side do you think they'll be on? And the example you seem to want... one of the religions that will hunt down and kill those not using what THEY consider "unholy" magic that has the religious equivalent of Magehunters.
It was figured out long ago by the more powerful spell users what people are doing and how common 'low' magic is, but the majority of the common population do not realize it. The powerful ones are not holding back the fairly mundane ones either... because magic is a talent akin, I suppose, to The Force. You have a certain amount of potential and that's it. If you're just a little creative you can come up with reasons why they wouldn't run around shouting this to the world. I can come up with three immediately. I'm not going to go into an in depth explanation of my setting to try and explain it FULLY to you, but there are reasons, a number of them, why things are the way they are.
No, I am applying a "realistic" ideology to the situation; extrapolating a natural course of events given the parameters stated.
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It seems to me that you just need to go ahead and accept the fact that you are artificially enforcing a rule, or situation, upon your game world and it is OK. It is a tool by which you are telling a story. Just understand that it is by no means "realistic." :)
You're applying what you think is realistic in a setting you know little about and extrapolating, largely, incorrectly. :) It seems you just need to go ahead and accept that it is only according to your logic being applied to a setting you don't know much about.
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Again, I guess you and I are looking at this differently, and that is fine, it helps breed variety which is a good thing.