Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: craggles on July 25, 2012, 06:10:19 AM
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Hi all, I'm looking for people's feelings on RPG book cover styling - whether you prefer faux leather/marble (to look like an ancient tome) with the cover illustration inset into it or a magazine style with the illustration filling the page or a combination of both in a similar way the RM2 books had (but this 'panel' could be on the left, right, top or bottom and could be colour/gradient/leather/marble/stone/other etc) or whether you just don't care either way.
Is there a 5th option you'd prefer? Tell me all about it. :)
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I have not voted yet but I am trying to think of something that will stand out more from the others on he shelf.
For the binding make sure it is easy to read not mater what you do as sometimes it can drive you crazy trying to find a book that has used some cool(strange) font that is very hard to pick out from the art.
MDC
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I did option 5 because, for me any paticular single type of cover doesn't matter, just so long as it is attractive: colors and imagery merge / contrast in an appealing way. ART. Pretty. Cool. Etc.
For example: I liked the cover of the HARP SCIFI Beta book, as well as the one it was finally published with.
The cover has to convey a feeling, an idea, something that pertains to what is inside. High fantasy with grit? Show it. hat's that statement? Don't tell me, show me.
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Although a book cover can give a decent idea of what is contained within, to me, it is the material that is within that makes the book. A book can have the most brilliant design ever seen, yet, if the material is crap, the book is worth just that.
For me, it is the material inside that makes the book worth every penny spent on it. Yes, like everyone else, I love a beautiful cover.
I think the best design would be a Faux Leather with what appears to be a plaque of engraved wood inset into the cover.
rmfr
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I like the image myself - a good image stands out more. The faux tome thing was done by D&D 3 and 3.5 and looks poor.
Given also that a lot of book stores these days stock these edge on, the spine needs to be such that it stands out (there are *lots* of black/gark grey spines out there), and thick enough that you can actually read what the thing is. It goes without saying that it should be a book that is square-bound and not one that is staple-bound. That just screams "CHEAP!!"
Don't just think of the cover - the spine is equally important for catching the eye.
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Warhammer seems to do pretty well with the tome look.
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What I care about is price and durability.
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I vote for a big picture on the cover, not in a frame, no side panel, only a cool picture on the cover. And if you ask me, I would go for picturing the same group of characters in all the books but in different situations like in RM2 books: fight scene for Arms Law, Using spells for Spell law and so on... but different characters and new style.
And to stand out of all other millions of fantasy rpg covers, avoid overused backgrounds like, dungeons, generic forests... I would suggest:
- Arms Law: Fighting scene in Snow scenary (next to a frozen lake perhaps?)
- Character Law: Huge landscape with our group of heroes in the lower right corner of the picture in small size staring to the horizon and very small because of the distance, just like silouettes.
- Spell Law: A spell user using some utility spell to save life after being thrown from a flaying ship so save his life
- Creatures & Treasures: Creatures! and... Treasures! ;)
Well, I am not to original, but I had to try :P
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I would go for picturing the same group of characters in all the books but in different situations like in RM2 books
I'm already doing that for the Shadow World books - inside and out. I too have Angus McBride to thank for that bit of inspiration too. ;D
For the binding make sure it is easy to read as sometimes it can drive you crazy trying to find a book that has used some cool(strange) font that is very hard to pick out from the art.
I agree!
Given also that a lot of book stores these days stock these edge on, the spine needs to be such that it stands out
Ahh - now that's something to keep in mind - thanks!!
The faux tome thing was done by D&D 3 and 3.5 and looks poor.
That's exactly what I think too but we seem to be in the minority for now. :-\
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I voted magazine style since most of my favourite colors have been this style with a large image on the front cover. But I have also have books that I really like the cover on without any image at all where they instead focus on the actual cover itself and trying to create that in an evocative way.
But I have always loved the style of the RMSS covers. Especially when combined with Angus McBrides pictures. But I guess it all depends.
I also liked the covers of Shadow World Players Guide and HARP Sci-Fi too. But I guess it all comes down to the art itself and on how it is combined with it surroundings.
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voted really dont mind, but allow me to inform you about what i strongly dislike; any form of chainmail bikinis.
a loin cloth warrior with a guantlet is acceptable because the guantlet allows the glade to be grasped to stab efficiently with, but armor that doesn't protect is silly. might as well leave em in a loin cloth.
I have seen so many down right stupid pictures of warriors, usually female with lots of cleavage and leg, please no more.
now, a sexy woman doesnt bother me, its the chainmail bikini look i dislike. i know you readers know what i mean.
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Warhammer seems to do pretty well with the tome look.
It does, and so does D&D 3 / 3.5 but I don't want RM to just be a carbon copy of the big boys.
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voted really dont mind, but allow me to inform you about what i strongly dislike; any form of chainmail bikinis.
D&D is apparently going through some art direction changes, and this topic was brought up on a few blogs. After reading them, I began to take closer notice of the artwork in all the RM books, and to its credit I have not yet found a single chain mail bikini. In fact, very rarely is the female form presented in a lewd, or inordinately appealing fashion. And when it is, it's very mild, and remains in context.
I also happen to believe that chain mail bikinis created a lot more role players than would have been created had they not been so prevalent in RPG's. But I doubt it has the same effect these days, with the internet and the decades of tv desensitization.
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Don't get me wrong, I like pretty women showing off skin as much as the next dirty old man...
...but that said, someone in a chainmail bikini is inappropriate for a game that strives for realism.
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I agree with you all guys, if there is a picture in the cover realism should be the main feature, that comes without saying since we all here love Rolemaster :)
A naked woman (or man) would be far more realistic than a chain mail bikini playboy fighter girl. But speaking about being realistic... I´m not hoping to see that in the cover art ;) (But if remotely possible I vote for that too, it would transmit sheer brutality in combat :D )
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I absolutely HATE chain mail bikinis and stupid female armour that exposes all the vital points!! >:(
Another thing I hate is high-heels!!! They're in no-way practical in modern society let alone in a tactical environment. How big of a negative modifier is needed on all MM's?!! :O
...and I hate Halflings too - but that's a different point! :P
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Besides, having been in the SCA for a couple of decades, I can tell you from personal experience that a delicious looking woman still looks every bit as delicious in real armor. I won't claim to have an opinion on the subject, but the ladies tell me that the same goes for delicious looking men in armor as well.
In short, what you gain in "sexyness" is nowhere near what you lose in believability.
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Another thing I hate is high-heels!!! They're in no-way practical in modern society let alone in a tactical environment. How big of a negative modifier is needed on all MM's?!! :O
That is something I have not seen or noticed is females in high heels and chain mail bikinis.
;D Yes and halflings and gnomes makes great snacks for the various creatures in the game world. ;D
MDC
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...and I hate Halflings too
+1...have I told you what I think of elves?
I'll save the regulars my diatribe. Respect. ;D
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I love halflings.
Lightly grilled, lil sage, lil garlic... oh yeah.
Tastes great, less filling! ;)
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For stylish Tome look check out HackMaster PH by Kenzer. Full colour book, very smart externals, good contents, very well presented. Best book for style I have seen in ages.
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But I guess it all comes down to the art itself and on how it is combined with it surroundings.
That is basically what I was saying. I have books I like that are from most of the types mentioned above, so it really boils down to the art itself and how it mingles with the format of the cover. No matter what, they have to make people want to pick them up - something I never did with the RM books; it took a friend of mine to introduce me to the game, as I never got past scanning them on the shelves when they first came out.
Chainmail bikinis had their part in the RPG industry, and while they are really impractical (I am looking at you Red Sonja!), you cannot doubt their influence on the hobby (again: I am looking at you Red Sonja!) - and thousands, if not millions, of teenagers. Some of the "best" were by Larry Elmore, if I remember correctly...
Personally, I do not like cartoonish art if it is to reflect anything gritty or "realistic." No big-eyes and small-mouths, thank you very much! And elf ears should not be so big and pointy that they shoot past the top of their head - that is just ridiculous. (Elves are not my personal favorite - I definitely prefer halflings and gnomes to them, and humans overall - but they have been, and will continue to be a big part of the fantasy gaming scene. So, we just have to put up with them, and try to make them as cool and interesting as possible. And not make them into anime elves.)
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Part of it also, IMO, depends on intent. If the new RM stuff is supposed to be fantasy-exclusive, then it should follow those conventions. But if there's intent to make it the baseline for an expandable system it perhaps should look a bit different. Hard to do with any SL products, but maybe ChL and AL should be different to denote their status as foundation products. Assuming, of course, that this is the case.
And yeah, Elmore did do the best bikini covers...
And there should be Dwarves on the cover....
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Rolemaster was always fantasy-based. Spacemaster was the non-fantasy version of RM. So, the art in RM will be 100% fantasy. (I am pretty-sure.)
For some reason, Rm seems to be going away from the dwarf - who I prefer to elves, as well.
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I don't know why you'd say RM is moving away from the dwarf.
RMU will have both Dwarves and Elves, you can rest assured of that.
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With the Hobbit coming out, this could be the year for Dwarves.
Personally, they always irritated me. I think it's because people have always played the grudgy curmudgeon all too well. ;)
Elves have always had more variety. With all the different types, it's easier to have your garden variety woods elf and still also have something different. With dwarves, I don't know any game that has had multiple types of dwarves, so they're almost always the standard.
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core rule book, humans only, with 6-10 cultures and ethnic groups. leave the
lesser non human races to supplments were enough detail can be provided (and source books mean income for ICE).
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Something different than the others.
Shadowrun books are a big picture with a title and a black band at the bottom
D&D Books are a picture with several top bands
GURPS books are just a picture with the title
Pathfinder has also it's own style.
RM needs to have something different graphically.
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Chain mail bikini... shows a lot of skin so you can't really classify it in the chain category... is this the real AT2? :)
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If you have really excellent picture that catches the interest of the new blood then that would be good for sales. Someone here said that it is even more important that book stands out from the bookstore shelf in a positive way and I agree. If it doesnt you wont pick it up from there and the book will not have a chance to impress you with its content.
Some might think that these decorations and covers in a book are somehow a secondary thing and it is the content that matters more. Let me just say that if you would tomorrow go to the middle of the forest and plan to give a bar of gold to everyone that comes to you there, maybe no-one would come as no-one would know you are there. They would miss your gold. It is important that people know what good there is to get.
To make sales the art needs to reflect the spirit of RM to the uninitiated. It will make them pick up the book and have a look inside. If it still looks good at a glance they might start to read some parts. If they like the short part that they read they will buy it.
If ICE is ok with making rulebooks for a smaller audience or as a hobby thats up to them and there is nothing wrong with that.
But hey, babes in chainmail-bikinis: when I was younger I was maybe more serious about this stuff and also thought that babes in chainmail bikinis dont make sense. Well, maybe my views are somewhat more open nowadays and that kind of chainmail bikini actually pleases my eye. Seriously it might be good to have at least one such picture inside the book. It would soften the image of the book and might even have positive effect on some younger potential buyers.
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I'm sure sexy art sells. It is fun too. Yet super sized swords and super sized rediculous armor is so cartoonish, and that's not for me. It's...well, DnD. The side of DnD I don't like and thus don't play.
So of course I'm gonna rally against it. :monkey:
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Overdone it can also drive away female players.
Although, looking around this forum, that may not be a big factor anymore....?
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There have been female posters...I think Arioch offered them up for sacrifice to Chuthulu though. I don't blame him. Old gawds will be old gawds.
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I'm sure sexy art sells. It is fun too. Yet super sized swords and super sized rediculous armor is so cartoonish, and that's not for me. It's...well, DnD. The side of DnD I don't like and thus don't play.
Agree totally.
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I'm sure sexy art sells. It is fun too. Yet super sized swords and super sized rediculous armor is so cartoonish, and that's not for me. It's...well, DnD. The side of DnD I don't like and thus don't play.
Agree totally.
I know guys but... - just one! ;)
You know one picture out of 30 cannot hurt, surely not. Girls wont even notice it before its too late.
Agh, ok I just go back to oogle my collection of chainmail-bikini pics... sigh
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I'm not saying there isn't room. I like Frank Frazetta art too. I have a book of it in fact.
My points of contention have to do with what and why armor was designed. It was perfectly designed to stop incidental blows and well designed to reduce trama from well placed blows. Big sholder guards and helmets with horns were not battlefield attire because such accoutrements provide places to hook and snag (not to mention messing with center of balance), which could give an enemy an advantage. Nothing about armor should provide an advantage to your attacker.
Armor also was high science and engineering for its days. Its production was by highly skilled craftmen who took thier job just as seriously as we take ours today. There was no mass production lines with cast dies and presses and molds or electricity, everything was done by hand. To crank out 100 perfectly tempered breast plates, or 100 perfectly linked jackets of chain required hard work and skill. The fantastic exagerated armor of pop culture falls far short of the inspiring truth of its history.
The old ADnD Wilderness Survival Guide had a picture of two orge like creatures luridly looking over a massive bolder at two scantily clad princess types clad in haremesque clothing. That was and remains a GREAT picture. I can dig me some scantily glad females and be inspired by the boyhood fantasy of being their hero, but if they had been drawn in chainmail halter tops with pleated plate skirts weilding five foot long blades no weapon smith ever produced...well, the picture would just silly.
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The old ADnD Wilderness Survival Guide had a picture of two orge like creatures luridly looking over a massive bolder at two scantily clad princess types clad in haremesque clothing. That was and remains a GREAT picture. I can dig me some scantily glad females and be inspired by the boyhood fantasy of being their hero, but if they had been drawn in chainmail halter tops with pleated plate skirts weilding five foot long blades no weapon smith ever produced...well, the picture would just silly.
Is this the image you are referring to?
Link (http://www.darkdungeon2.com/2012/04/random-rpg-thoughts-11-how-megadungeon.html)
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Yep. You win the No Prize.
It's in the mail.
(thank you Stan Lee)
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I know guys but... - just one! ;)
You know one picture out of 30 cannot hurt, surely not. Girls wont even notice it before its too late.
Agh, ok I just go back to oogle my collection of chainmail-bikini pics... sigh
Oh, I wasn't saying no to a chainmail bikini, but to excessively cartoonish art. (Sorry, but I think the Nodwick art on the cover of the loot book for HARP just BLEEEEPPS!) If you are to have a girl in a chainmail bikini, make sure it is appropriately gritty and "realistic" (looking, at least).
Just thought of something: If you have cover art that is covered a bit by titling and other stuff on the cover, please include a full page-sized version of the image on another page in the book - the best spot likely being the very first page after the cover. It is nice to get a "clean" image.
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The old ADnD Wilderness Survival Guide had a picture of two orge like creatures luridly looking over a massive bolder at two scantily clad princess types clad in haremesque clothing. That was and remains a GREAT picture. I can dig me some scantily glad females and be inspired by the boyhood fantasy of being their hero, but if they had been drawn in chainmail halter tops with pleated plate skirts weilding five foot long blades no weapon smith ever produced...well, the picture would just silly.
Is this the image you are referring to?
Link (http://www.darkdungeon2.com/2012/04/random-rpg-thoughts-11-how-megadungeon.html)
I have seen a pic like this in which it is a Dijin or Genie that is peering around the rock.
MDC
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If someone really wants to use impractical armor in a piece of art while remaining fairly realistic, the thing to do is just make the setting a gladiatorial arena. Armor was for looks, not real protection.
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There have been female posters...I think Arioch offered them up for sacrifice to Chuthulu though. I don't blame him. Old gawds will be old gawds.
I tried offering GrumpyOldFart, but they keep sending him back...
Regarding the chainmail binkin thing: nothing in particular against them, but I wouldn't find them very appropriate for a RM cover.
Now, something like a naked barbarian chick covered in blood and standing over the corpses of her recently slain enemies.. that would be perfect imo, but I don't think we're gonna see anything like that :D
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;D What about shield spells that are only colored in specific areas and the areas move with the caster to block specific parts? ;D
MDC
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There have been female posters...I think Arioch offered them up for sacrifice to Chuthulu though. I don't blame him. Old gawds will be old gawds.
I tried offering GrumpyOldFart, but they keep sending him back...
If you knew how bad I look in a chainmail bikini, you'd have known better than to offer me. ;)
Have a laugh point. 8)
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Not sure if it is the correct place for asking this but... what about the logo? is going to be a new one?
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Not sure if it is the correct place for asking this but... what about the logo? is going to be a new one?
maybe... :)
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Not sure if it is the correct place for asking this but... what about the logo? is going to be a new one?
maybe... :)
I like that smile ;D
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Cover and and the art inside must be made to a plan so that style is coherent and visuals give that gritty RM-fantasy realism feel.
The spine of the book should stand out in a positive way from the bookstore shelf.
If there are 30 pictures inside the book ONE pic (1/30) could be a little nicer for an old fart like me to look at and have that chainmail-babe in it. 1 pic out of 30. Never it should be in the cover.
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I know guys but... - just one! ;)
You know one picture out of 30 cannot hurt, surely not. Girls wont even notice it before its too late.
Agh, ok I just go back to oogle my collection of chainmail-bikini pics... sigh
Oh, I wasn't saying no to a chainmail bikini, but to excessively cartoonish art. (Sorry, but I think the Nodwick art on the cover of the loot book for HARP just BLEEEEPPS!) If you are to have a girl in a chainmail bikini, make sure it is appropriately gritty and "realistic" (looking, at least).
Just thought of something: If you have cover art that is covered a bit by titling and other stuff on the cover, please include a full page-sized version of the image on another page in the book - the best spot likely being the very first page after the cover. It is nice to get a "clean" image.
Currently I'm working on some of the interior illustrations for Loot, and my wife happened to notice its cover and pretty much said the same thing to me, she thought it was some kids coloring-in book! (no offense intended).
So you want a drawing of a scantily clad woman to appease the 14 year old boy that's still lurking inside you all! Hmmm I'm sure I can accommodate you with that request when the time arrives ;)
Just for the record...I like my Rolemaster gritty to the core, and I hope it reflects in my illos.
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I like my Rolemaster gritty to the core, and I hope it reflects in my illos.
Yes. May I have another, Sir?!
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Just for the record...I like my Rolemaster gritty to the core, and I hope it reflects in my illos.
I can dig it.
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So, the cover should just be a texture of some form of grit. Ideally, ICE can find one free for commercial use and save themselves a bundle of money! I like!
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Whatever there will be in the art department I really hope its going to be good. It really is so darn important for commercial success. RM is my favourite system so it wont be a dealbreaker for me but it will be the first barrier RM has to break if they want to sell it to the new blood.
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Realism (RM identity) + something atractive to new players of all kind (even teenagers) =
Realistic style + First Person Point of view! (like FPS games or Skyrim)
I think something like that would work very well. For example an attack from a very realisticaly pictured enemy being parried by the character´s weapon for Arms Law or a spell being casted from the hands of the character lifting a enemy or firing a bolt of any kind to a enemy on the distance...
Oh yeah! just got self exited with the image of covers like that on mi mind 8)
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Something catchy and never seen before? A plain, flashy PINK cover! ;D
Just kidding. Some of my friends can't stand pink. ;)
The idea offist person view from megaper is interesting.
Forget chain mail bikini. >:( I'm tired of sexy women with over-thight mini clothes. I would like to see other type of people in a book : old women, children, families, and... a sosie of Christian Bale! ;D
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I think the old RM2 companion covers were some of the best ever.
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I never get tired of sexy women. Most of the women I know seem to never get tired of sexy men, although having no taste in such matters it's hard for me to say with any certainty.
My objection to chainmail bikinis is
1. It's not believable, and believability is a RM hallmark.
2. Sure, sexy sells, but sexy is still sexy even (dare I say especially?) when you don't sacrifice believability for its sake.
I suspect that the day I'm tired of sexy women, you can put me to bed with a shovel. But the cute little dark haired thief type on the original RM covers was more fully covered than you're likely to see in any photo taken anywhere in the US today. The artist was competent to portray a pretty woman as pretty, without needing the chainmail bikini or anything close to it. The fact that she was pretty was garnish, it wasn't integral to the illustrations. She looked like an adventurer, not like a model who would start whining about conditions if she was outdoors long enough to break a sweat.
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Something catchy and never seen before? A plain, flashy PINK cover!
Unbeatable, RM will be the most known rpg of all time :D.
I suspect that the day I'm tired of sexy women, you can put me to bed with a shovel. But the cute little dark haired thief type on the original RM covers was more fully covered than you're likely to see in any photo taken anywhere in the US today. The artist was competent to portray a pretty woman as pretty, without needing the chainmail bikini or anything close to it. The fact that she was pretty was garnish, it wasn't integral to the illustrations. She looked like an adventurer, not like a model who would start whining about conditions if she was outdoors long enough to break a sweat.
Unbeatable, everyone would pick it up from the shop shelf just to check who dare to put a cover like that in a book :D
Amen to that!.
I took the liberty of making some drawings to picture the idea of first person art I speaked about above. I´m not an artist (try not to laught too much after checking the image ;) ).
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/88715917/20120731_222716.jpg
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I took the liberty of making some drawings to picture the idea of first person art I speaked about above. I´m not an artist (try not to laught too much after checking the image ;) ).
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/88715917/20120731_222716.jpg
That certainly is an interesting idea - and you've thought of all the books! (+1 idea points)
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Angus McBride was a badmother,,,SHUT YOUR MOUTH!!!
(play 70's funk here).
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Angus McBride was a badmother
Oh yes - that's undeniable! ;D
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My bottom line for cover art:
...believability is a RM hallmark.
If your cover illo doesn't convey that, I personally will feel like it's misleading to those you're hoping will buy it. If they want something more nerfed but with flashy special effects, they should be playing Exalted or something, not RM. If RMU is even remotely faithful to the game's history, it will be disappointing to them. In short, purely as a business decision, I think "high fantasy", "heroic" (in other words not very believable) cover art will generate negative publicity more than it will positive.
That said, if I'm so smart why ain't I rich? :o
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I took the liberty of making some drawings to picture the idea of first person art I speaked about above. I´m not an artist (try not to laught too much after checking the image ;) ).
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/88715917/20120731_222716.jpg
Well, if ICE used those, as is, it would certainly make the books stand out from the crowd.
However, a first-person perspective cover would suggest that it is like a video game and likely be misleading given that RM tends to run somewhat more realistically (though there are plenty of fantastic elements) and considerably grittier (particularly in the area of character death). I think if that were done, the covers would need to compensate. Demonstrate a low-level spell on Spell Law (the young mage boiling the soup), historical-looking combat on Arms Law, facing animals instead of monsters on Creatures, no gold on Treasures (maybe some silver, more likely copper and some basic items like rope, tools, food), a bedraggled band performing first aid on one of their injured on Character Law.
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Personally I would prefer if the cover had images that connected to what makes RM special. Much of the old art has been nice images, but they would equally well have fitted some other game.
For instance:
A battle scene for Armslaw with a number of heroes brutally killed and one single hero left who have just prevailed over the large demon would much better transmit the feeling of RM combat than some random hero facing monsters.
Another idea would be that for a gamemaster orienteered title should have images of heroes putting down their weapons when surrounded by badly equiped militia.
For the core books I would suggest some pictures of court life when people are standing watching the king while an assassin silently kill one of the persons in back. Break away from the heroes in the dunegon crawl and you get something that stands out compared to other games.
Spell law is a bit tricky...in this case I would go with rituals in a court setting.
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...a bedraggled band performing first aid on one of their injured...
The injured one must be the drummer. It's always the darn drummer! :)
I like Pa's concepts actually. Realism in combat means people will avoid it, and when they engage in it (like with the demon), things do not go down smooth. Regarding Spell Law - the classic image is of a mage of some kind blasting some critter. Aside from a cartoon image from the 1st edition AD&D DMG which I still love (mighty powerful wizard blasting a 1' tall humanoid, which is only seen in sillhouette), I'd like to see something different. Perhaps something like a teenage wizard using a low level illusion to impress a pretty girl (or a low level illusion to impress a pretty boy, if the wizard is female ;) ) or as suggested above, heating food (perhaps by having the wizard summoning clearly magical flames under a pot.
However, this thread sort of gives me the feeling that the cover art is done and it's now about presentation :)
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However, this thread sort of gives me the feeling that the cover art is done and it's now about presentation :)
It is true that I created the poll specifically with the goal of presentation in mind - I am not 'illustrating' the covers, I will merely be designing the 'look' once the illustrations are done.
Although at the time of writing this, I don't believe the illustrations have been done yet but the subject matter is in the control of Aurigas and the Guild Companion Publications and I'm sure Thom and Nicholas have been reading this.
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8) How about every person is wearing magical transparent Lean armor, so that people can see everyone's small cloths. :o
MDC
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It is true that I created the poll specifically with the goal of presentation in mind - I am not 'illustrating' the covers, I will merely be designing the 'look' once the illustrations are done.
Whether illustration or layout, I stand by my opinion. The cover should warn potential buyers that this is not your 'classic' RPG where you can do things that are 'heroic' to the point of being foolhardy and expect to get away with it while never being in any real danger yourself.
While of course I can't claim to know the opinions of every RM player, the thing (back in the day, '81-'82) that took my gaming friends from one copy of Arms Law bought out of curiosity to 4 different games, maybe 2 dozen people, who wanted to play RM and nothing else (not to mention a plastic tub the size of a filing cabinet filled with RM books)...
The single biggest factor in that was learning that one orc was a threat that, if not treated correctly, could kill your entire party. The game wasn't filled with fluff to make you look good without requiring you to actually be any good. It was filled with challenges that could be overcome if you played well.
If (to whatever extent possible) the cover conveys that, then those who see that cover and still want to open the book and read will be pleased with what they find there.
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It is true that I created the poll specifically with the goal of presentation in mind - I am not 'illustrating' the covers, I will merely be designing the 'look' once the illustrations are done.
Whether illustration or layout, I stand by my opinion. The cover should warn potential buyers that this is not your 'classic' RPG where you can do things that are 'heroic' to the point of being foolhardy and expect to get away with it while never being in any real danger yourself.
While of course I can't claim to know the opinions of every RM player, the thing (back in the day, '81-'82) that took my gaming friends from one copy of Arms Law bought out of curiosity to 4 different games, maybe 2 dozen people, who wanted to play RM and nothing else (not to mention a plastic tub the size of a filing cabinet filled with RM books)...
The single biggest factor in that was learning that one orc was a threat that, if not treated correctly, could kill your entire party. The game wasn't filled with fluff to make you look good without requiring you to actually be any good. It was filled with challenges that could be overcome if you played well.
If (to whatever extent possible) the cover conveys that, then those who see that cover and still want to open the book and read will be pleased with what they find there.
Maybe that can be stated somewhere in the book or on the back cover. Then you just have to get the people to believe it.
MDC
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My bottom line for cover art:
...believability is a RM hallmark.
If your cover illo doesn't convey that, I personally will feel like it's misleading to those you're hoping will buy it. If they want something more nerfed but with flashy special effects, they should be playing Exalted or something, not RM. If RMU is even remotely faithful to the game's history, it will be disappointing to them. In short, purely as a business decision, I think "high fantasy", "heroic" (in other words not very believable) cover art will generate negative publicity more than it will positive.
That said, if I'm so smart why ain't I rich? :o
+1. Standing by your side adding my voice to yours, amen brother!
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Maybe that can be stated somewhere in the book or on the back cover. Then you just have to get the people to believe it.
MDC
The first E critical should sort that out :)
Criticals though are a *huge* selling point for RM. I can fairly confidently state that there is no other game that even comes close in terms of the graphic realism that those complex (and often entertaining) tables bring to the game. My (new to the game) players' favourite is the 100 E heat - "All that remains are charred bits of teeth and bone." Maybe some choice quotes along the lines of: "Other RPG: You hit for 12 damage. Rolemaster: You hit for 12 damage, and your vicious slash to the foe's weapon arm causes an additional 3 hits per round bleeding damage and -10 to all actions."
In my mind I'm seeing a video promo like this -
[A front room gaming group. one player looks to be asleep, another texting. The clock on the mantle ticks loudly. All dialogue deadpan monotone, filled with silence and pauses.]
Player: I roll a 17.
GM: You hit. roll some damage.
Player: 8 plus 4... that's 12
GM: The orc dies.
[Cross fade to a much more animated group, all the players watching the combat, clearly interested]
Player: I roll a total of 156
GM: The orc is nimble and has a shield. 50 defense, 10 cover for attacking through the confined space of the doorway.
Player: (looking it up in the book): 96... 96... that's 12 hits and a C critical. (rolls dice). Sweet - 82 (the other players sit back, thinking their job has been done)
GM: Your wild swing scores a deep gash scross the orc's chest - but he's wearing chest armour so instead of opening up his chest cavity, you simply nick his shoulder, he's bleeding for 2 hits per round and cannot parry for 2 rounds. He roars in anger and swings his mace at your head! What's your defense?
[Fade to motivational message. Until one is thought of: "RoleMaster - the roleplaying game of champions"]
Heck, if I had a video camera I'd film it myself at the roleplaying club on Thursday and set it going all viral ;)
N.B. if you're thinking of any videos try and get Felicia Day - she is a) hot, b) geeky, c) into roleplaying, d) likes doing things online :)
edit - oops - he can't be stunned *and* swing his mace in anger - so changed it to an Unable to Parry result. Disclaimer - all hit tables and critical results 100% made up. I'm a GM. I'm allowed to do that. So there.
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...a bedraggled band performing first aid on one of their injured...
The injured one must be the drummer. It's always the darn drummer! :)
It's Crewman #6. ;)
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In my mind I'm seeing a video promo like this -
[A front room gaming group. one player looks to be asleep, another texting. The clock on the mantle ticks loudly. All dialogue deadpan monotone, filled with silence and pauses.]
Player: I roll a 17.
GM: You hit. roll some damage.
Player: 8 plus 4... that's 12
GM: The orc dies.
[Cross fade to a much more animated group, all the players watching the combat, clearly interested]
Player: I roll a total of 156
GM: The orc is nimble and has a shield. 50 defense, 10 cover for attacking through the confined space of the doorway.
Player: (looking it up in the book): 96... 96... that's 12 hits and a C critical. (rolls dice). Sweet - 82 (the other players sit back, thinking their job has been done)
GM: Your wild swing scores a deep gash scross the orc's chest - but he's wearing chest armour so instead of opening up his chest cavity, you simply nick his shoulder, he's bleeding for 2 hits per round and cannot parry for 2 rounds. He roars in anger and swings his mace at your head! What's your defense?
[Fade to motivational message. Until one is thought of: "RoleMaster - the roleplaying game of champions"]
wotc had a similar concept for their 4e launch promotional video, and managed only to make basically every d&d fan angry... But I agree that actual quotes from the crits tables would make great commercials :)
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wotc had a similar concept for their 4e launch promotional video, and managed only to make basically every d&d fan angry... But I agree that actual quotes from the crits tables would make great commercials :)
The difference there of course is that 4e sucks. It sucks more than the suction dredger that the Dutch are using to build up their sea defences by sucking up sand and depositing it in sandbanks (reference - Sky/Discovery trash viewing: Extreme Machines). RoleMaster at least has the virtue of being a good game :)
It's interesting how some promotions backfire. My local radio station ran a promo several years ago, at a time where I was a regular listener - 50 minute commutes get boring after a few months. They have never had a great music selection, but the thing that completely turned me off was a series of ads which were all along the lines of "You don't have to listen to <insert 5 seconds of some interesting music I wanted to hear> to listen to this <insert 10 seconds of yet another banal chart clone>". People switched off in droves, the radio station was bought by a larger chain not long after. But even so, I have not listened to that station since.
Marketeers do get some strange ideas sometimes. Not all of them work.
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It's Crewman #6. ;)
It's his own fault. He should have put on a different colour shirt that morning.
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N.B. if you're thinking of any videos try and get Felicia Day - she is a) hot, b) geeky, c) into roleplaying, d) likes doing things online :)
Yes please!
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wotc had a similar concept for their 4e launch promotional video, and managed only to make basically every d&d fan angry... But I agree that actual quotes from the crits tables would make great commercials :)
The difference there of course is that 4e sucks. It sucks more than the suction dredger that the Dutch are using to build up their sea defences by sucking up sand and depositing it in sandbanks (reference - Sky/Discovery trash viewing: Extreme Machines). RoleMaster at least has the virtue of being a good game :)
I actually quite like 4e. It has its flaws but overall I find it to be a very good game. But do you know what would make it even better?
RM criticals ;D
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I actually quite like 4e. It has its flaws but overall I find it to be a very good game. But do you know what would make it even better?
RM criticals ;D
Each year, my gaming club gives out a variety of awards for games played, with some serious and other not so serious categories. As part of this we give out cheap plastic trophies to the winners. Usually, as the trophies are so cheap, one in the batch is broken - we send that one to the game company that has produced a game with the most broken and unplayable system that we have tried in the last year, along with a headed letter from the committee saying why it has been sent. Last year one of the groups attempted 4e and WotC came very close to receiving that trophy. They didn't get it in the end because unlike the eventual winner, some of their mechanisms did actually work.
Oddly, none of the games companies these have been sent to have replied :)
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@JimiSue:
Gaming companies should appreciate your feedback. I think it is good activism to have such yearly awards for games.
@Arioch:
Interesting idea. I have been playing D&D and start in a PF group. I think I would like to try what kind of change RM criticals would bring to these.