Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMSS/FRP => Topic started by: providence13 on January 25, 2012, 11:30:00 AM
-
Has anyone created stats for wood, metal, glass limbs?
The added mass might increase hit damage without weapons.
Do wooden legs enable you to run longer/less Exh expenditure?
The limb might get a mod to RR vs breakage from crit. Glass could have a penalty for Krush.
These numbers could be obtained from the quality of base materials, just thought there might be more than that.
Metal fist might attack on Mace table..
I'm trying to make regen/reattach pretty rare and give a reason for the Prosthetics List.
-
I was just about to post a question, "Do you reduce hits if a person lose's a limb?". Which is close to your question.
I know there are charts about materials and hits in SL and GM Law (I think) about materials, hardness and hits. I would use this as a basis to get a "leg" up on the numbers. ;D And just do an estimate of limb hits and AT.
Or you might take a look at SM:P TL:Robotics Manual and see how they do it as a guide and adapt it to your needs.
MDC
-
I love the question. Most time that list has been used I have failed to take into account the different materials being used. Since all of the materials below the 10th Level spell (Artificial Flesh) are non-living the might be penalties ensued by using the limb. The Spell, "Animation" allows the wearer to "operate an artificial limb at will". Does this mean move it and, say, flex the fingers? But the hand is stile either wood/glass/etc. The whole tactile feel and feedback would be gone.
So any manipulation skill would need to suffer a large penalty. And I could see even arms skills would be affected because the feel of the weapon would change. The ability to make small adjustments to get past the foe's guard would be harder.
Interesting questions.
-
I'd be tough and just allow the "normal" benefits of a wooden limb, while it functions like a normal one, which is a great step up from having no limb.
Wood would be inflammable, Metal would drag people down in water. Iron rusts, mithril makes greed ferment, etc. The penalties for using the limb are 0 if I'm correct, as long as the lay healer keeps the spell up to date.
There is no definite benefit from having limbs made of other materials, except perhaps that unarmed attacks would be more damaging. wood +5, glass -5 iron +10, etc attack as a small crush attack.
I'd certainly not allow anyone to hack off their limbs just so they can be a medieval terminator. 8)
-
Using Treasure Companion, you can calculate the BF, strength and resistance of the artificial limbs.
Lemme see if I have a copy here...
...here we are. Table 7.2 is WOODEN WEAPON STRENGTH. Pine, the worse (representing very soft woods) to Iron Wood, the best (Magially strong woods). Lets assume Oak, which cost x10, Max +5 OB mod and has a +10 Str Mod. Dir Wood takes on the properties of the Weapon Enchantment Spell used to enchant it.
Superior design, those requirements are up to the GM as to what IS superior design, increases cost x5, crafting/smithing to Very Hard, Init mod +1 and Str +20.
There is also a table for weight of the weapon and appropriate mods. The heavier the item, the bigger the bonus, up to 15% increase in weight/+20 bonus to Str.
Normal items always resist as if they are first level targets. The limb should resist at the level of spell needed to craft the item.
Strength is calculated as follows' Material strength of item equals 1.5 x average str for the item/weapon type + material str bonus + Weight mod + superior construction mod.
In this case, i would give a wood arm the same average str as a club, or 50. So 50 + 10 for material + 0 for weight mod + 0 for superior construction x 1.5 is 90. The arm has a Str of 90. With superior design, it would be 120. Either ways, its fairly resistant to damage. Of course, it resist spells at the level of spell needed to construct the arm.
Special metals get additional mods.These mods are found in TC.
Note that a 15% reduction in weight weakens the Str of the arm, and a GM would be reasonable to demand this penalty to represent a gaceful item such as an arm. Maybe less so with a troll arm...
-
I love the question. Most time that list has been used I have failed to take into account the different materials being used. Since all of the materials below the 10th Level spell (Artificial Flesh) are non-living the might be penalties ensued by using the limb. The Spell, "Animation" allows the wearer to "operate an artificial limb at will". Does this mean move it and, say, flex the fingers? But the hand is stile either wood/glass/etc. The whole tactile feel and feedback would be gone.
The spell is already doing something impossible, by animating the limb at all. It's already got some kind of interfacing with the brain/nerves if you can move it at will. I don't think it necessarily follows that it has no sense of touch. I would assume function at the level of a normal limb, unless stated otherwise. It is magic after all.
-
Remember that "hits" are a representation of tolerance for pain and shock, and not structural integrity, at least for PCs. Hits for structures (doors, chests, siege towers, boats) are structural integrity.
The implication for "hits" for limbs is more interesting, to be honest. I'd probably track them separately. If you do a 7C critical, and the critical hits the limb: congratulations: your arm just took 7 points of damage, but it doesn't go towards your "base" hits (which affects things like the -10 to all actions at 75%, etc.). Then again, "healing" those 7 hits might prove difficult.
-
There are mending spells on a training package spell list that should do the job. I think there is an open list too. Additionally, RM2 had some optional spell list in RMCIII and SUC that could repair damages animated limbs.
I assume a lay healer could also.
-
The spell is already doing something impossible, by animating the limb at all. It's already got some kind of interfacing with the brain/nerves if you can move it at will. I don't think it necessarily follows that it has no sense of touch. I would assume function at the level of a normal limb, unless stated otherwise. It is magic after all.
The Animate Limb spell would give tactile feel? Hmmm, never looked at it that way.
-
Remember that "hits" are a representation of tolerance for pain and shock, and not structural integrity, at least for PCs. Hits for structures (doors, chests, siege towers, boats) are structural integrity.
The implication for "hits" for limbs is more interesting, to be honest. I'd probably track them separately. If you do a 7C critical, and the critical hits the limb: congratulations: your arm just took 7 points of damage, but it doesn't go towards your "base" hits (which affects things like the -10 to all actions at 75%, etc.). Then again, "healing" those 7 hits might prove difficult.
I agree totally. This is how I have handled it in the past when a player's character got his arm replaced with a steel prosthetic.
The spell is already doing something impossible, by animating the limb at all. It's already got some kind of interfacing with the brain/nerves if you can move it at will. I don't think it necessarily follows that it has no sense of touch. I would assume function at the level of a normal limb, unless stated otherwise. It is magic after all.
The Animate Limb spell would give tactile feel? Hmmm, never looked at it that way.
And I never allowed the prosthetic to give tactile feel. Like prothetics today, the user would not be able to "feel" the hand grasping anything. S/He had to learn how to use the prosthetic without the tactility.
A good example is how I have had to learn to walk with a right leg that is literally "dead" from the knee down. Due to some exceptional nerve damage and destruction, I cannot feel my right leg below the knee. And it was fun learning how to walk with it. Although it is not artificial, it might as well be. I have to constantly watch where I am walking since I cannot "feel" where my foot is setting down on. You would be surprised how much you rely on being able to "feel" what your foot is stepping on. The reason I have to watch where I step is because I can severely wrench my ankle and only know so by the stumble.
rmfr
-
Would "Animate" on a glass eye let you see?
-
Would "Animate" on a glass eye let you see?
Since an eye is not a "limb", the spell would have no effect. You wouldn't be able to see, but you wouldn't be able to move the eye around, either.
-
Busted in one try. . .It's an organ, I guess. Then again, they do specify glass limbs, which always struck me as funny in an adventurer context. "Damned Orcs, that's the 5th arm they shattered this year!". . .a glass eye makes sense, though the spell does say "Limb" so I guess no.
-
Laen is glass. So is obsidian. They're plenty cool for adventurers. For those not planning to do violent activities, plain glass has its uses. A politician with a glass arm can easily promise "greater transparency" if he is elected. ;-)
-
And I never allowed the prosthetic to give tactile feel. Like prothetics today, the user would not be able to "feel" the hand grasping anything. S/He had to learn how to use the prosthetic without the tactility.
A good example is how I have had to learn to walk with a right leg that is literally "dead" from the knee down. Due to some exceptional nerve damage and destruction, I cannot feel my right leg below the knee. And it was fun learning how to walk with it. Although it is not artificial, it might as well be. I have to constantly watch where I am walking since I cannot "feel" where my foot is setting down on. You would be surprised how much you rely on being able to "feel" what your foot is stepping on. The reason I have to watch where I step is because I can severely wrench my ankle and only know so by the stumble.
rmfr
I would not let a 4th level spell give tactile feel. Maybe at the level of the 10th level spell (Artificial Flesh), I might allow the tactile feel. So until the the negatives for use of the limb would be in line. After the 10th level speel the flesh would allow tactile feel. I have seen things on the Discovery Channel (yeah, I am a geek) that shows folks on the cutting edge of prosthetic. I saw where a computer is allowing the feel that might replace the feel that real skin might. I could see a 10th level spell allowing this.
-
glass can be very tough. take an empty fifth bottle and try to break it. you can throw it through stuff, it bounces of pavement and takes considerable effort to break. granted, a hammer does the job, but hammers versus glass limbs would probably apply a -20 to -50 break penalty, simular to edge attacks versus wood, etc.
-
glass can be very tough. take an empty fifth bottle and try to break it. you can throw it through stuff, it bounces of pavement and takes considerable effort to break. granted, a hammer does the job, but hammers versus glass limbs would probably apply a -20 to -50 break penalty, simular to edge attacks versus wood, etc.
Yes be sure it is empty first!
MDC
-
keep in mind the spell doesn't specify a penalty using the fake limb, which means it's assumed to function as well as the one it replaced. . .if that means it has touch or not isn't said. The fact the 50th level animate doesn't give touch might be read to imply it's granted all along in that context.
I wouldn't allow laen to be crafted with a spell for glass, it's definitely in the magical material category.
Who knows what the properties of amorphous magically animated glass are? Perhaps the plasticity granted by the animate makes the limb near shatter proof. I dunno.
But, this is definitely a list that gives very few exact details, like it doesn't say anything about the durability or repair of limbs at all. . .
-
I had one character use this. It was a wooden prosthetic. He could use it normally (it had feel capabilities) and that also meant that he would experience pain though it.
1) Any criticals to that area (arm) that were bleeding were nulled (benefit)
2) Structure damage was used for the arm (somewhat of a benefit)
3) Repair of the arm involved woodworking and the alchemical spells for working wood! (drawback)
4) It would act like normal wood in certain situations (fire, water damage if submerged for a long time, more brittle than a real arm as far as fingers) (drawback)
5) More bookkeeping (drawback for GM!)
Really great ideas all! :)
Drev
-
...take an empty fifth bottle and try to break it...
Yes be sure it is empty first!
MDC
I would make sure it is half empty...or maybe half full first... I cant decide. ???
-
I had one character use this. It was a wooden prosthetic. He could use it normally (it had feel capabilities) and that also meant that he would experience pain though it.
1) Any criticals to that area (arm) that were bleeding were nulled (benefit)
2) Structure damage was used for the arm (somewhat of a benefit)
3) Repair of the arm involved woodworking and the alchemical spells for working wood! (drawback)
4) It would act like normal wood in certain situations (fire, water damage if submerged for a long time, more brittle than a real arm as far as fingers) (drawback)
5) More bookkeeping (drawback for GM!)
Really great ideas all! :)
Drev
Or in the case of my group...
6) All of the "I've got wood" jokes. (Drawback if there are kids around)
-
Wow! I'm surprised at the number of responses. Thanks everyone.
I guess the tactile sense is different from game to game. I could see it either way.
If the limb takes structural damage, does it hurt until repaired?
Would the repair cause pain or act as healing? Sometimes I make healing itch or a brief pain at best.
Maybe having a temporary animation is best if you go with the tactile sense route. Or you could have touch sense but not pain, heat or cold.
I guess the attack chart would be case by case; club attack, mace or above Strike I, however it was designed. (War Mattock!)
It would be intriguing to have different attachments with individual uses.
-
The spell up the list that allows attaching enchanted limbs opens the can of worms. . ."My metal left arm that fires shockbolts, or can be used as a mace that does an electrical critical -1 severity of the krush inflicted."
It opens the door to magical cyborgs.
The last PC I had who had the "Hammerhands" ability had two metal hands per this list, which in all other ways acted as normal hands.
-
...take an empty fifth bottle and try to break it...
Yes be sure it is empty first!
MDC
I would make sure it is half empty...or maybe half full first... I cant decide. ???
Hay are you an alcohol abuser? Leaving 1/2 alcohol or 1/2 air in the jug. ;D
MDC
-
To touch on this old topic..
In Cyberspace, the breakdown is this:
Hands 40 Cyber Structural Hits
Limbs 80 Cyber Structural Hits
Paraphrasing:
"Anytime a crit says limb broken, it makes an RR. Points of damage delivered vs Hits remaining in hand or limb. Hits to cybernetic don't affect character's hits." Of course this doesn't account for magic. I think yammahoper's technique works great.
I agree that the Limb should make most RR's at the lvl of spell used to animate it. But if animation is temporary and an RR is required, then it should save as a normal mundane item, plus whatever quality bonus.