Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Cormac Doyle on June 23, 2011, 06:09:31 AM
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Why is there only one human species? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13874671)
There are often long running discussions about the reasons why a fantasy world should have elves, humans, dwarves, hobbits, orcs and many other hominids ... but here on Earth there have been quite a number of Hominids through history; and only one (Homo Sapiens Sapien - "humans") has survived ...
Perhaps if we look at our own history, it might explain the differences?
For Example, there is evidence that Homo Sapiens and Homo Erectus co-existed relatively peacefully for long periods of time in the same areas (at least 10,000 years in the Middle East), but although Erectus was physically larger, stronger and faster ... Homo Sapiens had more mental capacity for social interaction and planning. There is even evidence of cross-breeding between the two ... but eventually, Erectus died out ...
Erectus = anti-social = small groups = illness/injury to a small number would wipe out the group
Sapiens = social = larger groups = illness/injury to small number could be survived
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Most RPG settings also include 3 factors not seen on earth (or, at least not in the scales seen in RPG settings).
1) Long term impassible geographic barriers to create or preserve genetic variations.
2) Highly mutagenic factors (Genetic Engineering via science or Magic, radiation, demonic influence, gods, etc)
3) Cross Dimensional or Interplanetary Travel.
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Well, we don't know why. During most of human evolution, there have been multiple human species. There's plenty of speculation on why modern humans became an exception, but nobody really knows.
Even if one accepts the idea that it is something we ourselves did, that intelligent species will eventually come into sufficient conflict to leave only one survivor, this still took longer than many fantasy worlds have been populated.
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that intelligent species will eventually come into sufficient conflict to leave only one survivor, this still took longer than many fantasy worlds have been populated.
Most fantasy worlds give no information on its early history, so i have no idea how you support this assertion.
Runequest Glorantha and Middle Earth are two exceptions, not the norm.
Even in a game world with good background, such as Forgotton Realms and Shadow World, we get vague stories that basically follow the line of an ancient species that enslaved the lesser species and then fell, leaving the scattered slave races to inherient the world. But pre history going back the 300k years needed to get a solid grip on a species orgins? Not common at all.
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That's my point, many fantasy worlds don't have 300k+ years of prehistory. The various species didn't evolve, they are the products of gods. This is the influence of real-world mythology, which rarely comes anywhere close to capturing the true scope of our universe. Often these worlds are populated with "monstrous" threats that make the survival of early stone-age humans implausible, so that even if background is unspecified, one is forced to assume at least a high stone age culture with agriculture (to allow sufficient population concentration for armies) and fortification as the start of intelligent life.
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If your point is that "halflings were made by this god" is a good reason for their existence, I can agre with that. As far as a game is concerned, a bit more info needs to be wrapped around it (a god, religion and creation myth).
My point is most games don't even bother to go that far. Nothing should exist in a game world without reasons, be they magical orgins, godly orgins or the process of evolution forces, or any combination of plus numerous others not listed.
I like other species than human, when they make sense. I do not like 5 or more "races" that can all interbreed, indicating they are all really the same species with variable phenotypes.
There are no half neanderthal/half humans because they were different species. Just like there are no half gorrila/half lion. Like wise half elves and half orcs and half ogres and half dwarved and all the other nauseating half races found in many games are silly. At best, a munchkins twist.
Several species on the same planet is not the problem, its the lack of detail AND that they are all just exaggerated humans. If we want exaggerated humans, then play an exaggerated human.
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Some theorists believe neanderthal and Erectus mixed with homo sapiens and were drowned out to become mere echoes of minor genetic variations within the main line. . . .other scientists call that crazy talk. . .but it's not resolved either way, AFAIK
I agree that in a world with casual half this and half that, over any reasonably long period of time you end up with "The people on the north continent tend to be tall, skinny, and long lived" "Why" "They're 1/16 or 1/32 elven blood, all that's left of the elvish race.".
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This is the influence of real-world mythology, which rarely comes anywhere close to capturing the true scope of our universe.
This is complicated by the fact that denial doesn't work nearly as well when an expert can analyze what you do and definitively declare, yes or no, this is or is not the product of channeling magic. To some extent, that gives your mythology present day consequences, if "the Gods" involved in the creation are the same "the Gods" you get spells from. It's like a politician's voting record.
I agree that in a world with casual half this and half that, over any reasonably long period of time you end up with "The people on the north continent tend to be tall, skinny, and long lived" "Why" "They're 1/16 or 1/32 elven blood, all that's left of the elvish race.".
Exactly. You can start out with wide varieties that can still interbreed if you're fairly close to the beginning of a radiant evolutionary period. But before long ("long" in evolutionary terms) it will settle out into 1) distinct species that cannot interbreed, or at best can produce "mules", and 2) one hybrid species descendant of all those species capable of interbreeding that did.
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It isn't that they can't interbreed because they are different species; they are different species because they don't interbreed. This may be biological incompatibility, psychological factors (Dwarf/Elf couples just don't attract -- this will frequently mark the point of speciation in reality insofar as such a marker is meaningful), or physical separation (I can't mate with a Barsoomian woman because I can't get to her, even though John Carter proved us interfertile).
If you have humans, a species that is interfertile with humans but dwells underground and where the women have beards, and a species that only wants to live among trees and can settle in tropical rainforests easily due to disease resistance, they will tend to be physically separated and culturally, if not biologically, disinclined to mate under normal circumstances.
But you can still have rare exceptions. And magic can get around physical issues in those cases, so that still doesn't matter. That assume you impose real-world genetics on a fantasy world in the first place; otherwise, don't let your wife mate with your bull or you'll need to build a labyrinth.
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If they can interbreed, they are seperate races/ethnic groups. I disagree with this phenotype approach, and keep them seperate species that cannot mate and bear live young.
As far as humans not mating when they could: that doesnt happen.
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I'd both agree and disagree, it is possible, but not over the time scales involved. . .i.e. humans and elves don't (often) breed. . .even if it's a freak thing, over evolutionary time scales the genetic drift of both populations eventually forms a merged population base. So it takes 10,000 years, or 100,000. . .it eventually happens, unless you have an actual biological full-stop, like all halfbreeds are sterile. . .If humans and elves can cross without complications, then the human populations that border the elves will be hybrid over time, as will the elvish populations in contact with humans. . .give that a few thousand years and every human will have an elf somewhere back in the tree, and every elf will have a human back there somewhere. (Every South African Swazi is in some way a cousin to every Alaskan Inuit, despite their wide geographic distance and the number of barriers to contact between them, over 5 to 6 digit time scales, the distances and barriers are effectively nonexistent).
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One must also remember that interfertility is not a simple either/or matter. There's a good deal of practical difference between situations in which 100% of elves can interbreed with 100% of humans and one where 10% of elves can interbreed with 10% of humans or one in which 2% of elves can interbreed with 3% of humans with reduced chances of conception and increased chances of miscarriage.
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A +100 resistance to poison and disease, even watered down, vs pre-industrial child mortality rates from 50-90% makes even ratios like that a win-win. . .that least game usable disease immunity is like the super gene in mundane existence. . . .if it can get into the human population at even a 0.1% success rate, in 10,000 years every single human will have it, because disease resistance benefit to that scale is like having constant access to perfect medical treatment at all times without any effort at all.
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If the disease resistance is genetic (not true in, say, Middle-Earth), dominant, mixes with specific human genes without causing problems, doesn't depend for success on environmental factors (maybe there's a reason the elves live in forests all the time), and is simple enough to pass on a single gene, sure. Discounting geographically isolated groups (which, admittedly, over 10,000 years is a small sample in our world, but fantasy worlds often have better isolating barriers), of course.
Selective infanticide would also prevent interbreeding from getting very far.
Also note that 10% humans compatible with 10% elves in terms of biological potential for interbreeding does not mean a 1% success rate, or even 0.1%. If the majority of those humans are concentrated in Europe and the majority of those Elves are concentrated in South America, the rate would be much lower, while if they were both concentrated in northern Europe, the rate could be significantly higher.
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Hey, I'm all for putting the elves on the other side of the game world. Then we never have to see them. Unless magic transport easily over comes those mighty barries previously mentioned. Teleport anyone? Fly spells?
Why sin't disease resitance genetic? Half elves get a big boost.
Scientist estimate that at one point in history about 60-70k years ago, humanity went through a bottle neck were perhaps 20k humans TOTAL survived (the super volcano of Sumatra if ya want search, great read, super scary stuff). Inbreeding is frowned upon, but after a certain population density, it doesn't really mean much. A latent genetic disorder waiting to pop up in one in a hundred thousand or more, sure, but inbreeding won't cripple a population. There is no need to kill babies.
Now, if we humans were just a little less adaptable, then perhaps destinct species of humaniods might have survived over time via well defined habitats, ignoring natural world wide disaters such as super volcanoes and killer asteroids...except we are so adaptable that no ecosystem has proven immune to human occupation and development, except under the seas of course. In time we will develop there too, along with space.
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Why sin't disease resitance genetic? Half elves get a big boost.
Anything from being rooted in divine favor to (as in Middle-Earth) elves and humans differing in the types of their souls. You can make it genetic if you want, in your world, but that's hardly the only way to go.
A latent genetic disorder waiting to pop up in one in a hundred thousand or more, sure, but inbreeding won't cripple a population.
inbreeding != interbreeding
This has nothing to do with anything anyone else has posted to this point.
There is no need to kill babies.
There is if you want to kill all elves, as you claim. Look at those pointy ears. Clearly not "one of us".
Now, if we humans were just a little less adaptable, then perhaps destinct species of humaniods might have survived over time via well defined habitats, ignoring natural world wide disaters such as super volcanoes and killer asteroids...except we are so adaptable that no ecosystem has proven immune to human occupation and development, except under the seas of course. In time we will develop there too, along with space.
Humans only establish large populations in unfavored areas where they can alter the habitat. Humans deal with forests but cutting them down to create grasslands, not by being excellent forest-dwellers. Some humans live in forests, but their populations are low. Against a similarly (or more) advanced people that was as intelligent and specialized for forest living, they would be out-competed in that environment. Humans live in arctic and desert environments, but marginally. A specialized intelligent species there would outdo humans. As for underground dwelling, that is very rare and barely scratches the surface when it is done, and so far as I am aware, only done as a form of fortification, with the food obtained mainly from the surface. No living on cave lizards and fungal forests or whatever dwarves do to keep their cities fed.
Humans have managed to live almost everywhere, because they didn't have comparable competition. Even with modern technology, many places are marginally habitable. For a people with similar intelligence, technology, and magic (in a fantasy setting), which found those places a pleasing environment, such areas would be easily held against the sort of population drift that historically sent humans into such places. A concerted effort by a large, organized human civilization could be a threat, but then the ,e.g., desert-folk would present a counterthreat to that civilization, which would, of necessity, be advanced enough to negotiate with to avoid a conflict that might destroy either or both of them.
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In a fantasy world you can do anything, even be right about everything. GM's find motivation in a host of things.
As far as killing all elves: imposible as they live in to many imaginations. Elves are here to stay.
Fortunately, not on Earth. We humans own the ball. All of it, every environment. Even small populations count.
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Still feel that you're thinking small time scales Rdan. . .if the two populations can cross, then they will, unless totally kept apart somehow, mix. . Genetic drift in two populations might seem to take a long time to us, as we live in people time scale, but over long time scale, none of the barriers you refer to will work. . .it has to be an absolute barrier of some sort, like "All crosses are sterile" or "Any elf that leaves the fey woods dies, all humans that enter the woods die".
Simply because any percentage rate of intermingling multiplied by infinity equals 100%. it doesn't matter how small you make the percentage, it just extends the time frame out, but eventually, it happens.
i.e. if in a fantasy game world there are two races that can breed, you are playing in that time of process as the two populations are merging (which may be so slow as to be imperceptible to the players).
Though of course as you said, merger is only one method of ending up with a singular genetic pool, the other method is one or the other side dying out. (I guess in fantasy or sci fi they could "leave" like the elves in ME did).
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Maybe the elves 'leaving' is just a romantic notion.
"Mommy, what happened to all of the Neanderthals?"
"Weel, let's see, they all got on their big woolly mammoths and road away to uh, Siberia. Yeah, that's what happened. :)
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"Mommy, what happened to all of the Neanderthals?"
Hush and eat your cousin. :o
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Except that groups that can interbreed don't necessarily combine, they can also diverge over time. That's how speciation happens in the first place, in our evolutionary world.
Are you committed to a future in which horse and donkeys merge into one species? Because mules aren't all sterile. They're mostly sterile.
Once the peoples are in regular contact and interfertility is allowed, it is certainly likely that their populations will merge over a long enough time span but (a) that's pretty much irrelevant if the setting is after only a relatively short period of contact and (b) over a long enough time span neither species is likely to survive as itself anyway so the interbreeding issue may well be moot depending on its pace.
Then again, human DNA is more virus than human (there's more material from a single viral source than there is in active genes), so one might argue that elven disease resistance would kill the human genetic material and that this would prevent interbreeding.
I'm certainly not advocating having half-breeds just because you've got stats for them, but if they serve some function in the setting, they don't invalidate it.
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I concur that in setting time spans they exist, and the mule argument is akin to the previous god one. . .if reproduction is under control of an outside force (humans for mules, gods in a hypothetical setting) then indeed the eventuality of merger can be trumped by an exterior force with complete control.
On the flip side, Dogs, Wolves, Dingos and Coyotes are all just dogs, and calling them different species is kind of a crock of nonsense, they all interbreed and are merely just regional variations. . .the Chihuahua and the St Bernard are just dogs, and despite radical variations in structure and appearance are still the same thing. The dog has a wide range of morphology within it, which resulted in pre-genetic classification of many species of dogs, but based on genetics they're really just isolated genetic pools of one species with some variant characteristics.
IMO a game world where elves, humans and halflings can all mix casually. . .then IMO they're all just one species. . .one happens to be short, one happens to be long lived. . .
If whatever caused those populations to diverge is removed, likely they'll re-merge back into a singular genetic pool.
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On the flip side, Dogs, Wolves, Dingos and Coyotes are all just dogs, and calling them different species is kind of a crock of nonsense, they all interbreed and are merely just regional variations. . .the Chihuahua and the St Bernard are just dogs, and despite radical variations in structure and appearance are still the same thing. The dog has a wide range of morphology within it, which resulted in pre-genetic classification of many species of dogs, but based on genetics they're really just isolated genetic pools of one species with some variant characteristics.
Dogs and wolves may be able to interbreed, but they have some large racial differences. Dogs have many traits that help them live with humans that wolves can't learn. So, despite genetic similarity, they are quite different creatures.
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To get half half combinations naturally, the species have to be very closely related in the first place. Many off spring of such combinations can be sterile (mules for example) some are fertile but subsequent generations may dilute differences.
So take half elves - the elf and human have to be genetically close enough for an offspring to be viable, this would imply to me a relatively recent common ancestor. In game half elf-half orc seems very rare whereas half elf-half human and half-human-half orc etc seems much more common. I would theorise that this gives two possible evolutionary paths.
1. Elves - Humans - Orcs etc all have the same recent common ancestor. Probably from a human line as this seems the most viable and widespread half contributor.
2. Elves and Humans have the common ancestor and orcs are descended not from Elves but Humans.
Other theories can easily be thought out if you want a 'natural' evolution.
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One must also remember that interfertility is not a simple either/or matter. There's a good deal of practical difference between situations in which 100% of elves can interbreed with 100% of humans and one where 10% of elves can interbreed with 10% of humans or one in which 2% of elves can interbreed with 3% of humans with reduced chances of conception and increased chances of miscarriage.
Species is not as "hard and fast" as you may think
There are three major Gull species in the northern hemisphere. The American Gull can interbreed with the European Gull. The European gull can interbreed with the Asian Gull. The Asian gull cannot interbreed with the American Gull. Is that 1, 2 or 3 species ??
As to the genetic basis behind disease resistance ... that is not an on/off toggle. People from "malaria"-prone regions should develop an enhanced genetic immunity to malaria if that was possible, right? Right - it's called cycle-cell anaemia. A "carrier" for cycle-cell has a dramatically reduced chance of having malaria, but a 25% chance of having a child with cycle-cell. Look at the numbers ... cycle-cell is less disruptive than malaria (at least until modern medecin), so it was a feature that was "selected for"
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sorry - sycle, not cycle
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Dogs and wolves may be able to interbreed, but they have some large racial differences. Dogs have many traits that help them live with humans that wolves can't learn. So, despite genetic similarity, they are quite different creatures.
Most wolfdog advocates would say that's propaganda put forward by people who's political agenda is to make it illegal to own wolves or part wolves as pets, and that you'd likely have similar problems attempting to make a pet of a wild dog. Of the dog species I listed above, all are now considered Canis Lupus except for the Coyote, which is on it's way to happening IMO. Domestic dog's separate specification as Canis Familiarus was demoted to Canis Lupus Familiarus, and the genetic qualifications for a subspecies are so weak as to be borderline meaningless. I guess technically all the above are not dogs, they are all wolves. (A Hyena or a Fox, that would be an actual, different species within Canis).
The dog/wolf comment was less in line with arguing about dogs and wolves than it was to point out that vast swings in morphology and apparent characteristics are possible within a species.
As a for instance, having say Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears and Ogres all be the same species seems gut "Wrong" but simply because it's counter intuitive to have 3' and 12' humanoids be all the same species is trumped by the actual fact that a Chihuahua and St Bernard are the same species. (Or the fact that humans vary from around 3'-9')
So it's entirely possible that Humans and Halflings are the same species, just isolated genetic pools. . . .and likely it's even possible to stretch the bounds to draw elves in as well. (Which, if they can casually interbreed, would likely be true from a genetic standpoint).
As to the Gull thing, it's not even necessary to go that far. . .sometimes Man A and Woman B are infertile, but Man A and Woman C are fertile. . .without needing to go out and find a Chimp to complicate things, sometimes a mix just doesn't work. . . Likely if you trapped 1,000 of each gull inside a 1 mile dome, you'd end up with just one species of "Gull" after 100 years.
OTOH if gods and trans-dimensional entities and/or mad scientists/casters are afoot, you could end up with 100 variant sapients in a quick time frame, the ones that can interbreed will likely quickly cross over into one pool over evolutionary time scales, unless something specifically and absolutely maintains a separation. . .Evolutionary time scales can be so long as to be meaningless in game time though, unless any one of us has run a campaign that actually ran for a hundred thousand year time scale? (Then again, on the flip end, I have been in games where "The Last Dragon" was hunted down and killed, or Goblins were apparently completely exterminated. . .we humans have proven over our real history to be quite good at closing chapters on entire species in short enough time frames to be noticeable in game time.)
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Dogs and wolves may be able to interbreed, but they have some large racial differences. Dogs have many traits that help them live with humans that wolves can't learn. So, despite genetic similarity, they are quite different creatures.
Most wolfdog advocates would say that's propaganda put forward by people who's political agenda is to make it illegal to own wolves or part wolves as pets, and that you'd likely have similar problems attempting to make a pet of a wild dog. Of the dog species I listed above, all are now considered Canis Lupus except for the Coyote, which is on it's way to happening IMO. Domestic dog's separate specification as Canis Familiarus was demoted to Canis Lupus Familiarus, and the genetic qualifications for a subspecies are so weak as to be borderline meaningless. I guess technically all the above are not dogs, they are all wolves. (A Hyena or a Fox, that would be an actual, different species within Canis).
We know that wolves can be easily domesticated. We also know that dogs can follow a person's eyes or finger to determine what that person is looking at or pointing at, but wolves cannot. It would be interesting experiment to see how long it takes a group of wolves, after domestication, to develop this trait. (Interestingly, dogs do not follow each other's gazes, only a person's gaze.) I doubt there's a genetic basis for the trait, but it has become instinctual in dogs.
The point, I guess, is that there are distinct differences among populations that belong to the same species. So, just because humans can all reproduce with one another doesn't mean there aren't different races. After all, humans and elves can reproduce, but they are generally considered to be distinct races. (Does this suggest that nightvision is a learned trait and not a genetic trait?)
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As a for instance, having say Goblins, Hobgoblins, Bugbears and Ogres all be the same species seems gut "Wrong" but simply because it's counter intuitive to have 3' and 12' humanoids be all the same species is trumped by the actual fact that a Chihuahua and St Bernard are the same species. (Or the fact that humans vary from around 3'-9')
The various species of "giants" in my world are all mutations of dwarves. ::)
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Behavioral traits are hard to tie down, like wild dogs won't follow a finger either, suggesting that is likely a nurture rather than nature aspect. Wolves as a domesticated breed are said to be aggressive and dominant, and yet specifically fight bread dogs are even more aggressive and dominant on average than wolves . .suggesting on the nature side of it, domestic dogs are merely a far broader genetic spread than natural wolves. (Much like modern man is a far broader morphology and genetic spread than prehistoric man) but in the end, they're just wolves (And genetic studies of wolf and coyote populations indicate lots of cross breeding and crossing with dogs, two of the NA species are likely actually just expanding populations of coyote/wolf hybrids, part of why I think we'll see Coyotes redefined as Canis Lupus eventually). . .and if you mix dog breeds via cross breeding, they regress back into wolf/coyote like mongrel-mutts rather quickly, showing that most of the variation from dogs to wolves lie in recessive genes aggressively selected by breeders.
But, coming full circle back to the original question, if you want to look at a fantastic situation and apply science to it, you run into the issues raised on this thread. . .and all too often, the answer lies in the GMs view of things. Any two worlds will have totally different answers to these questions.
Like Kelewan of the Riftwar saga explained their races as the results of genetic tampering, plus some trans-dimensional migrations via "Rifts". . . .and in that world, none of the races could interbreed except different sub races of elves who could breed with each other.
In other worlds you have Moreau like stuff going on. . .and in others, there are just multiple sentient races with no explanation given.
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Just wanted to throw my two cents in.
On the world I am currently working on, there are five different races playable by PCs: Alnara Altais, Gurandi Dangro, Krenosi Lillar, Muranin Rakana, Sualgar Grigin. However, these are races in only the sense that Chinese, Caucasian, Negroid, Hispanic, et. al. are different races of humans.
Actually, Project Genome has proven that there is only one human race. But there are four different types: Negroid (African), Abiriginoid (Australia/Indonesia/Brasillian aborigines), Mongoloid (oriential), and Caucasianoid (occidental).
There are three other races not PC playable: Hatharnd, Nargthrin (Lumara), and Gulgal. The Hatharnd and Nargthrin are similar to elves, but not elves. Gulgal are similar to troglodytes/orcs.
These three cannot breed with the humans.
The Hatharnd and Nargthrin are completely incompatible due to their genes having a hexa-helix structure (6 strands instead of 2) structure and use 26 nucleotides (compared to only 4 for us humans). In our genes, our 4 nucleotides only come in 2 base-pairs. With the Hatharnd and Nargthrin, their 26 nucleotides come in 13 base-pairs.
The Gulgal, like humans, also have a double helix but they have 6 nucleotides in 3 base-pairs.
That is how I kept them from interbreeding.
rmfr
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There are two.
Men and Women.
Neither truly understands the other. ;)