Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Cory Magel on January 15, 2011, 12:37:20 PM
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I hesitated to post this poll, because I know some things just aren't realistic (like one giant book) but I'm curious what the overall results will be.
People also need to realize that those of us on the board are, as I've said before, not the typical customer. We're the ones that follow the system/company, come to the board to discuss them, sometimes quite energetically. :D So it's possible the results of this would be of questionable use. But I'm doing it anyhow.
Also, let me say a couple things regarding business and marketing... on the business side, one huge core book is not going to be popular with an RPG company because it eliminates much of the future profitability of the system and is logistically problematic. On the marketing side it's not going to be popular with a majority of customers because the cost of such a book is going to be much less attractive - like it or not there is an auto-response in most customers that will balk at the large price of a single book vs a few more reasonably priced ones (even if they add up to more than the expensive core one). As much as I hate the lack of insight most customers shop that way - it's a KNOWN fact as a result of many marketing studies. Thus, you will probably never see option "A)" below. So, if you're tempted to answer that way, you might consider that it's very unlikely a game company would do such a thing and select what your next best option is. I'm not saying "Don't even bother answering A)". I'm not an ICE representative and this isn't some official company poll, so you are more than welcome to still have that opinion... but it's really not a realistic option for a business trying to make a profit.
Lastly, keep in mind two of the most important reasons for a new version would surely be to try and bring the RM2+/RMSS+ crowds together AND pull in new customers. Try to keep your answers, if you say more than just a number and letter, fairly short. We can discuss this in major detail in the thread(s) that already exist.
I have been unable to figure out how to create an official poll for some reason, so you'll just need to give a number and letter for your answer.
1) You are a Rolemaster user who feels that you really have everything you need to play the game and aren't too concerned with what will be published in the future.
2) You are a Rolemaster user who purchases additional products that come out simply to integrate into your preferred or customized version of Rolemaster.
3) You would like to see and likely purchase any new products or version of Rolemaster (assuming you liked them/it).
A) One huge core book that contains "everything" you need to play Rolemaster.
B) One large core book that has what is considered the most widely universal materials with optional materials published in followup books.
C) One mid sized core book that contains the primary rules of the game with separate arms and spell books.
D) One small core book that has a slimmed down version of Rolemaster with various expansion books adding official or optional materials to the system.
Oh, should add...
I) You don't want to see any duplicated materials. You'd rather flip though multiple books when researching all possible options within a topic.
II) You don't mind some duplicated materials.
III) You like the idea of duplicated materials as it will be easier to keep all information contained in one place - so expansion books should repeat some info.
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3CII
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2-c/d-II
I like this style of poll.....
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3BII
Though I'm not sure the playable in one volume version + complete character law, arms law, spell law, and GM law volumes model I'm suggesting is properly represented in your poll.
The closest thing at present would be RMfrp + Rolemaster Standard Rules + Arms Law + Spell Law but RMfrp is a touch crippled for my tastes.
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1,2,3 B/C I
MDC
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2) You are a Rolemaster user who purchases additional products that come out simply to integrate into your preferred or customized version of Rolemaster.
I'm not saying that I would never buy a new version of Rolemaster, but it certainly is not a must-buy for me. More RMSS/FRP material would be much more likely to get my dollars.
C) One mid sized core book that contains the primary rules of the game with separate arms and spell books.
Preferably with combat explained in the new Arms Law (with the Rolemaster rules, not "how to use without Rolemaster" - I think that's unlikely to get much response any more, and would better be done as "how to use Arms Law with..." free PDF downloads) and spell-casting in the new Spell Law to make more room in the core book to cover guidelines for changing things, making the "kit" aspect clear and providing help to make changes in a balanced and sensible way.
I) You don't want to see any duplicated materials. You'd rather flip though multiple books when researching all possible options within a topic.
However, I recognize that this is not always possible, but should be kept to a minimum (if it gets to be more than a page or two, your design is probably flawed). If the core is thought out properly, all "common" material will be there.
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Greetings
Ideally 3BII though I think I could go for 3DII as well.
Regards
Edward
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3BIII or 3CIII
Cannot really decide between options B and C. On the one hand, the universal vs. optional split is a really intuitive one. On the other hand, the primary rules vs. separate arms and spell rules split follows what we're used to with RM and is nicely compartmentalized to boot.
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Looks like I'm unusual, but 2DIII. I'd rather have a really tight set of core rules on which many different games can be hung. Which means there will likely be overlap across expansions. Kinda like GURPS, but actually fun, and not broken.
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2CII
I'd buy any new edition that was fairly similar to RMC (and I don't mind RMSS/FRP-type stuff as optional rules, which isn't really all that different to the RM2 + Companions case, except in RMSS/FRP the stuff was tuned to hang together, whereas in the RM2 days you have to judge things yourself. Which I didn't mind at all, to be honest).
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3-C-III
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Nice work all, thank you all for keeping it short too.
There's actually a fairly standout selection at the moment. So far 3CII is in the lead, but 2CII isn't far behind.
(Oh, and mine would probably be either 3CII or 3DII).
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I should add that my 2CII could sort-of be a 3CII, but it'd be so contingent on the new version looking like my preferred RM2/C version that I suspect there will be a version war of disturbing proportions associated with it, so I opted for the "preferred version" option. I bet some other people feel the same way (about their preferred version, be it RM2/C or RMSS/FRP).
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Poll function was previously blocked on all boards except for member polls. As I'd rather see the polls in the sections where the topic fits, I've opened up creation of polls to all users on all boards. Thanks for pointing out the issue.
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Well, I won't lead another version war. I'll walk away instead. Even the fairly civil discussion that's gone on since the announcement bring a taste of bile to my mouth.
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I'd suggest posting this as three polls. . .as the poll system won't allow for a tri-vector poll.
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Poll function was previously blocked on all boards except for member polls. As I'd rather see the polls in the sections where the topic fits, I've opened up creation of polls to all users on all boards. Thanks for pointing out the issue.
I'm going to go ahead and leave this poll as is for now. I've got a method for counting votes that lean more than one way. Once it's been a few days I'll explain how I counted them up.
I'd like to see those who are "officially" involved with RM weigh in purely from the perspective that they were still just a customer if they are willing. If you don't want to do it publicly send your answer to Marc R and I'll add them in.
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IMHO there may be an advantage with not keeping a running tally on the topic. It may actually prevent problems.
MDC
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3CII
Though if I were a newbie, seeing it reviewed, it would be a different answer.
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3CII
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I am also going for 3 C II; this is, however, me speaking as a long time gamer. People who get started with RM should probably get one-catches-all-book, like MERP or RMFRP to get into the game easily.
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2DIII
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3CI
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I am also going for 3 C II; this is, however, me speaking as a long time gamer. People who get started with RM should probably get one-catches-all-book, like Not-RM or RMFRP to get into the game easily.
Under new management, are the forums still going to turn the Game That Must Not Be Mentioned into Not-RM?
RMX is the best intro all-in-one, surely? More lightweight than RMFRP, I'd say (although of course it'd depend on to which version of RM one wished to be introduced).
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I only read the first post of this thread.
3 C I
Please also note that I voted with only my own personal preferences in mind - what I would like to see and purchase - not what I think others would want or purchase. Generally, I find marketing issues boring as hell and better left to others. In fact, I would like to suggest that marketing issues (including how to bring certain perceived historical customer segments together) could be discussed separately from the discussion of how to make the best possible RM game.
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3 New product: No, New version: Definitively
B One core book + Online access to all rules and extensions as a monthly/yearly subscription
II
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3CII
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2CI
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3CII
3) You would like to see and likely purchase any new products or new version of Rolemaster (assuming you liked them/it).
C) One mid sized core book that contains the primary rules of the game with separate arms and spell books.
II) You don't mind some duplicated materials.
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First of all: 1
If I was to get something new: A and I.
Im not saying I would never consider going away from RMSS/FRP, which has been our game of choice for the last ten years, but Im not shure what it would take. It has taken a long time to collect all the books, learning and understanding the rules, and I think something entirely new and exciting would have to come along - like critical tables once was - for me to want to start that process all over again.
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2 C II
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I think the major problem of the Mjolnir approach to RM was the assumption that if you make a tight core book (RMX) then people will be interested in buying it and purchasing more books. I might be wrong, but in that case show me the sales numbers please. I don't believe that RMX gave any significant input of the new players to the forum and don't believe it can given Mjolnir any decent sales beyond I-buy-it-since-there-is-nothing-else-new-to-buy.
My point is that RM did never excel in the area of small stuff, it originally gained supporters because it was detailed and rich. You could challenge the dragon and have a thrilling fight. The local militia with crossbows was a thing to fear. The diverse spell list made every encounter with a spell user scary since you would never know what spells they would be using. All these are things that are hinted in RMX, but how could a new player understand what including the options mean just from RMX?
The length of any new RM books are secondary to that they really show the strengths of the new game. Actually I don't think the length is without importance. The shorter you make the core book, the harder it will be to write it well enough to gain new players.
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I think the major problem of the Mjolnir approach to RM was the assumption that if you make a tight core book (RMX) then people will be interested in buying it and purchasing more books. I might be wrong, but in that case show me the sales numbers please. I don't believe that RMX gave any significant input of the new players to the forum and don't believe it can given Mjolnir any decent sales beyond I-buy-it-since-there-is-nothing-else-new-to-buy.
My point is that RM did never excel in the area of small stuff, it originally gained supporters because it was detailed and rich. You could challenge the dragon and have a thrilling fight. The local militia with crossbows was a thing to fear. The diverse spell list made every encounter with a spell user scary since you would never know what spells they would be using. All these are things that are hinted in RMX, but how could a new player understand what including the options mean just from RMX?
The length of any new RM books are secondary to that they really show the strengths of the new game. Actually I don't think the length is without importance. The shorter you make the core book, the harder it will be to write it well enough to gain new players.
RM2, which is presumably what you're describing as "detailed and rich", came in three pretty small books plus a small Creatures and Treasures book.
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(Keep in mind the difference between 1980 RPG layout, 1990s layout and early 21st century layout logic. . .those books have a lot of small type that goes all the way to the margins, so they're longer than you'd think looking at them without opening them.)
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I think a single volume similar to RMFRP; but with some of the filler cut back would be good. I don't see having 5-10 pages of equipment or herbs as being "value added"; post it as a free PDF from the website and draw more traffic here.
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(Keep in mind the difference between 1980 RPG layout, 1990s layout and early 21st century layout logic. . .those books have a lot of small type that goes all the way to the margins, so they're longer than you'd think looking at them without opening them.)
Sure (which I prefer, actually), although I still doubt it'd be as big as the RMSS core book and it had Campaign Law in it as well. RMC Character law is the core of the RMC game and is in more modern layout and is significantly shorter than the RMSS book. Of course, people do sell big books -- Pathfinder, for example, is a big book -- but the surprising beauty of RM2/C, for me, is how relatively few rules there actually are (although we should bear in mind that Spell Law, in particular, had some additional rules).
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2CI or II (leaning toward I)
A completely new version might get me interested in buying new books altogether, but right now, I'm looking for stuff to use as I build my new group. New books, though, with newer presentation might just be what I need to sell my group on the idea.
Splitting Arms Law and Spell law is okay, keeps things neat and organized, so long as we don't end up with 3 versions of the same book with large chunks repeated. And that's why I waver between I and II. Some repetition is okay, but to expect us to buy the same last 25% of the book three times over is just irritating.
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I think the major problem of the Mjolnir approach to RM was the assumption that if you make a tight core book (RMX) then people will be interested in buying it and purchasing more books. I might be wrong, but in that case show me the sales numbers please. I don't believe that RMX gave any significant input of the new players to the forum and don't believe it can given Mjolnir any decent sales beyond I-buy-it-since-there-is-nothing-else-new-to-buy.
My point is that RM did never excel in the area of small stuff, it originally gained supporters because it was detailed and rich. You could challenge the dragon and have a thrilling fight. The local militia with crossbows was a thing to fear. The diverse spell list made every encounter with a spell user scary since you would never know what spells they would be using. All these are things that are hinted in RMX, but how could a new player understand what including the options mean just from RMX?
The length of any new RM books are secondary to that they really show the strengths of the new game. Actually I don't think the length is without importance. The shorter you make the core book, the harder it will be to write it well enough to gain new players.
RM2, which is presumably what you're describing as "detailed and rich", came in three pretty small books plus a small Creatures and Treasures book.
Did it come in small books...I recall loads of companions. ;-)
We would especially be talking about very many books if we include the MERP and Shadow World books that I think played a big part in making the game feel rich.
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So, I counted a solid vote (where you selected only one option in the group) as 3 points and a mixed vote (where you selected more than one option) as 2 points for each of those options.
Fairly definitive overall results from those of us who replied.
For all the votes up to Tolen...
49 Points = 3) You would like to see and likely purchase any new products or version of Rolemaster (assuming you liked them/it). (The range, not duplicating votes, would have been 15-17)
28 Points = 2) You are a Rolemaster user who purchases additional products that come out simply to integrate into your preferred or customized version of Rolemaster. (The range, not duplicating votes, would have been 8-10)
5 Points = 1) You are a Rolemaster user who feels that you really have everything you need to play the game and aren't too concerned with what will be published in the future. (The range, no duplicated votes, 5)
53 Points = C) One mid sized core book that contains the primary rules of the game with separate arms and spell books. (The range, not duplicating votes, would have been 15-19)
15 Points = D) One small core book that has a slimmed down version of Rolemaster with various expansion books adding official or optional materials to the system. (The range, not duplicating votes, would have been 3-6)
12 Points = B) One large core book that has what is considered the most widely universal materials with optional materials published in followup books. (The range, not duplicating votes, would have been 2-5)
3 Points = A) One huge core book that contains "everything" you need to play Rolemaster. (The range, no duplicated votes, 1)
47 Points = II) You don't mind some duplicated materials. (The range, not duplicating votes, would have been 15-16)
20 Points = I) You don't want to see any duplicated materials. You'd rather flip though multiple books when researching all possible options within a topic. (The range, not duplicating votes, would have been 6-7)
15 Points = III) You like the idea of duplicated materials as it will be easier to keep all information contained in one place - so expansion books should repeat some info.[/b] (The range, not duplicating votes, would have been 5)
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Put me down for 3BII
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1,2,3 - C - II