Author Topic: Bladeturn, can it be used versus unseen attacks?  (Read 6400 times)

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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Bladeturn, can it be used versus unseen attacks?
« on: November 13, 2024, 07:31:51 AM »
Would you allow a bladeturn effect to be used versus an unseen attack?

Such as an invisible enemy or an enemy using ambush?

Some of my player characters have magic items such as weapons, armour & shields that have a daily Bladeturn spell embedded in them.

Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Bladeturn, can it be used versus unseen attacks?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2024, 07:44:03 AM »
Would you allow a bladeturn effect to be used versus an unseen attack?

Such as an invisible enemy or an enemy using ambush?

Some of my player characters have magic items such as weapons, armour & shields that have a daily Bladeturn spell embedded in them.

According to ChatGPT...
Can Bladeturn be used against an unseen attack like an ambush?
No, Bladeturn cannot be used against an unseen attack in the way it is typically cast. This is because Bladeturn relies on the caster being able to react to the incoming attack, and the spell specifically requires the character to be aware of the attack to invoke its protective effect. If an attack comes from an ambush or is otherwise unseen (such as a surprise attack or one that bypasses the character’s normal senses), the character would not be able to invoke Bladeturn, as they are unaware of the attack.

How an ambush works in Rolemaster:
Surprise and Initiative: In Rolemaster, characters who are ambushed or surprised generally have a harder time defending against the attack because they don't have time to react.
Reaction and Defense: In the case of an ambush, the attacker usually gets to strike before the defender can react. This means the defender doesn’t get the chance to use most active defense options, including spells like Bladeturn.
Special Cases:
Perception Checks: If the character has a chance to detect the ambush (through a perception check or by detecting the movement, sound, etc., of the attacker), they may get an opportunity to react with a defensive spell or action. However, even in this case, Bladeturn would still need the character to be aware of the specific attack rather than just aware of the general threat.
Preemptive Magic or Prepared Defenses: If a character anticipates an ambush, they might be able to cast Bladeturn in advance of the attack, but this would still depend on their ability to perceive or predict the incoming strike.
Conclusion:
In summary, Bladeturn cannot typically be used to defend against an ambush or unseen attack because the spell requires the caster to be aware of the incoming strike. If the attack is truly unseen or surprise in nature, the character would likely have no chance to react with Bladeturn. However, some other spells or defensive actions might offer protection in these cases, depending on the situation and the exact nature of the attack.

Offline jdale

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Re: Bladeturn, can it be used versus unseen attacks?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2024, 09:08:49 AM »
I don't think it's worth asking ChatGPT for rulings....

In the RMU version, Bladeturn says "as Deflect I" and Deflect says either (depending on the spell list) "that the caster can see" or "in caster's field of vision". So I would say no. I only spot-checked the spells for RMSS but the ones I checked also explicitly require the caster to be able to see the attack. So that's pretty clear.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Bladeturn, can it be used versus unseen attacks?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2024, 12:45:45 PM »
I don't think it's worth asking ChatGPT for rulings....

I was about to put this in my signature, but will just say I could not agree more.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Bladeturn, can it be used versus unseen attacks?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2024, 02:14:55 PM »
I don't think it's worth asking ChatGPT for rulings....

In the RMU version, Bladeturn says "as Deflect I" and Deflect says either (depending on the spell list) "that the caster can see" or "in caster's field of vision". So I would say no. I only spot-checked the spells for RMSS but the ones I checked also explicitly require the caster to be able to see the attack. So that's pretty clear.

Thanks!
Would you allow a perception roll or detect ambush check to ready the bladeturn effect if it was on a weapon or shield?

Offline Hurin

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Re: Bladeturn, can it be used versus unseen attacks?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2024, 10:17:03 PM »
In RMU, it is possible to see the halo effect of invisibility spells, so I would allow a Perception check at the penalties for seeing an invisible object. See the Core Law rules on visibility (pp. 271-2) and Spell Law rules on invisibility (254-5).
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline jdale

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Re: Bladeturn, can it be used versus unseen attacks?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2024, 10:48:26 PM »
Yeah, in general for any surprise attack there should be some opportunity to notice and respond. It would usually be some kind of conflicting skills, and if the attacker is silent and invisible the chance of success might be pretty darn low, but you might as well give them a roll.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Bladeturn, can it be used versus unseen attacks?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2024, 11:44:04 PM »
Yeah, in general for any surprise attack there should be some opportunity to notice and respond. It would usually be some kind of conflicting skills, and if the attacker is silent and invisible the chance of success might be pretty darn low, but you might as well give them a roll.
Yeah, and as a GM, you might also be ready to describe how they actually detected that silent and invisible attacker (I don't mean to say that ironically, btw. If you give your players an opportunity, however low probability it is, be ready to explain how they actually succeeded - or failed, if it is an opportunity for failure).

You might also have an attacker that circumvents the halo effect and other such niceties by using Cloaking spells.

Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Bladeturn, can it be used versus unseen attacks?
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2024, 03:31:40 AM »
Yeah, in general for any surprise attack there should be some opportunity to notice and respond. It would usually be some kind of conflicting skills, and if the attacker is silent and invisible the chance of success might be pretty darn low, but you might as well give them a roll.
Yeah, and as a GM, you might also be ready to describe how they actually detected that silent and invisible attacker (I don't mean to say that ironically, btw. If you give your players an opportunity, however low probability it is, be ready to explain how they actually succeeded - or failed, if it is an opportunity for failure).

You might also have an attacker that circumvents the halo effect and other such niceties by using Cloaking spells.
attackers are vampires who have set up a thick mist in the ambush area which would prob reduce visibility to zero and chances of detection very small. Its a magical mist and the vampires have shape shifting abilities and can change freely into bat or mist making them even harder to spot. First attacker is dropping down ontop of them from the roof of a cave and they party are distracted by an enemy calling to them who is enough of a diversion id say, esp when the party start moving fwd toward the voice. These vampires have mist vision so can see perfectly.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Bladeturn, can it be used versus unseen attacks?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2024, 08:54:08 AM »
There are clear penalties for fog/mist in the RMU visibility rules, so I would use them.

'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Bladeturn, can it be used versus unseen attacks?
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2024, 10:42:53 AM »
There are clear penalties for fog/mist in the RMU visibility rules, so I would use them.

i dont have RMU yet. but i have a friend who does. ill check with him on the fog rules ;)

Offline Wolfwood

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Re: Bladeturn, can it be used versus unseen attacks?
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2024, 02:51:38 AM »
Attackers are vampires who have set up a thick mist in the ambush area which would prob reduce visibility to zero and chances of detection very small. It's a magical mist and the vampires have shape shifting abilities and can change freely into bat or mist making them even harder to spot. First attacker is dropping down on top of them from the ceiling of the cave and they party are distracted by an enemy calling to them who is enough of a diversion I'd say, esp when the party starts moving fwd toward the voice. These vampires have mist vision, so they can see perfectly.
Yikes! Sounds like you are going for a TPK there. :D

Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Bladeturn, can it be used versus unseen attacks?
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2024, 10:21:00 AM »
Attackers are vampires who have set up a thick mist in the ambush area which would prob reduce visibility to zero and chances of detection very small. It's a magical mist and the vampires have shape shifting abilities and can change freely into bat or mist making them even harder to spot. First attacker is dropping down on top of them from the ceiling of the cave and they party are distracted by an enemy calling to them who is enough of a diversion I'd say, esp when the party starts moving fwd toward the voice. These vampires have mist vision, so they can see perfectly.
Yikes! Sounds like you are going for a TPK there. :D

Its a perilous encounter. Session 20 of 20. the finale boss fight. Death is a real possibility. The party have resources aplenty. Vampire slaying weapons. Armour with special defensive capabilities eg. bladeturns and one PC who is pretty much invincible due to his legendary armour. Their is also an NPC ally (Nightblade).
If they lose someone it will be in the surprise round and thats going to be interesting as the PCs have a 1/5 chance its them that gets jumped from a Vampire dropping from the roof. They knew there was at least one vampire in the cave and knew it was closeby as they have vampire detection (glowing weapons). The outcome is uncertain. They party have an exit point but arent sure where it is yet... only its closeby hidden in thick fog. There is a magician in the group who could probably locate it, if he thinks to try. Will eb interesting. Iv let them know that at least one character could perish in this encounter.