And another one, Monks + Katas/Multiple attacks

[Ruffie]

And once again another question.

One of our players wants to play a monk. Now the question arrises: When a Monk attacks using a striking or sweeping attack does he use one or two hands? I see fighting using strikes/sweeps as part of a martial arts "movement" utilizing both the left and right hands.

If the Monk would want to make multiple attacks how would the math check out? Can he use two attacks? Does he get the penalty for using the off-hand?

What I'm worried about is that once he grows using the two-handed skill is an automatic two attacks without many negatives.

What say you?

[nash]

One hand / foot is one attack.

So if you want to make multiple attacks... well it's pretty much covered in "Katas" on page 172.

To execute multiple attacks, the use of each attack
 must be justified with respect to a given limb, with no
limb used as the basis for more than one attack. For
example, a combatant wielding two weapons, with
one in each hand, may strike once with each of them.
A combatant could also make a martial arts sweep
with a leg or a strike with the head...

[jdale]

RAW, an unarmed attack requires one hand/arm (or leg). (Some people prefer to require two especially for grapples, but that's not RAW.)

Unarmed attacks do not suffer any off-hand penalty. This is noted in the Katas section on page 172.

An unarmed combatant without Multiple Attacks skill, who wants to make two attacks (e.g., two unarmed strikes) against the same foe, starts with a base penalty of -75 for two attacks but their primary attack is light (which includes unarmed attacks) for +10 and their off-hand attack is "any natural weapon" for +20, so the penalty they actually incur is only -45. That penalty applies equally to both attacks.

If they have Multiple Attacks skill, it will offset that penalty. Multiple Attacks +45 (or more) would allow them to make two simultaneous attacks (as part of the same attack action) at no penalty.

That natural advantage for unarmed attacks is meant to be offset by unarmed attacks being relatively weak. You get a lot of attacks, but you will not be dealing a whole lot of damage. In my games, I found that the monk was able to quickly take down a lot of weaker foes like archers and mages, especially because he had great mobility, but when it came to deal with stronger foes he was better off picking up a weapon.

They'll get even more attacks if you get some adrenal speed in there, but my experience is still as noted above. I think it's ok, a trade-off between more attacks vs stronger attacks.

That said there has been some discussion about adrenal defense being potentially overpowered. If you have issues with the DB side of things, some reasonable house rules include:
* Full dodge and partial dodge give a DB bonus based on the Running rank bonus instead of the full Running skill (i.e., no stat bonus applies, since they are already getting the DB benefit of 3xQu). Can also apply this to full and partial block.
* Full dodge/block is a full round action rather than 4 AP, it uses all your AP. (Treat it like double concentration, except no mental focus maneuver is required.)
* When determining your dodge DB, double or triple any armor maneuver penalty before applying your maneuver in armor bonus (similar to the rule for swimming). This limits dodging (and therefore adrenal defense) while in armor.

[pastaav]

I have a monk in my game with 92 in multiple attacks and the number of attacks possible with adrenal speed are scary. Trying to bring down large monsters with martial arts attacks are on the other hand not that easy but the number of attacks means the monk packs a punch.

From another perspective, you in RMU must activate your adrenal defense and it can run out in the middle of the combat if your rolls are bad. There are quite many tactical situations that mean the monk is late to the action because he could not prepare before comabat or the monk has to disengage until the monk have managed get the adrenal actions in order (or shake the effect of a criticial).

All in all, I think the invested DP and the power level of the monk is quite reasonable and I would not say it has been a balance problem at the gaming table (but watch out for races with natural weapons...claw attacks extremly  powerful if you are monk).

[Cory Magel]

I'm curious what the need is to define if they are using one or two hands. There are rules for Martial Arts multiple attacks and I would be inclined to simply go that a minimum of one hand or leg is needed, but not define it beyond that.

[Hurin]

I think the reason is stated in the OP: if you only need one hand, you can potentially make far more attacks (with multiple attacks) than if you need two.

[pastaav]

I'm curious what the need is to define if they are using one or two hands. There are rules for Martial Arts multiple attacks and I would be inclined to simply go that a minimum of one hand or leg is needed, but not define it beyond that.

In my experience, the martial arts user having to use a new limb for the attack invites for the martial arts player to come up with a number of different attacks for it to feels reasonable. Perhaps not important from balance perspective, but from a meta perspective it makes it more fun at the gaming table if there are variations between the attacks.

[jdale]

Potentially it could also matter if the user has items. For example, the monk in one of my games had a pair of gloves that inflicted additional impact criticals. But since they were gloves, that was a maximum of two such attacks and the benefit didn't extend to his kicks. And when he used a weapon in his hand, he couldn't also benefit from that glove.

[Cory Magel]

I think the reason is stated in the OP: if you only need one hand, you can potentially make far more attacks (with multiple attacks) than if you need two.

But, as I alreadsy eluded to, aren't there already rules for making multiple attacks using martial arts that don't specify how many limbs you're using?

[Hurin]

Which rules in particular do you mean?

RMU makes clear that "To execute multiple attacks, the use of each attack must be justified with respect to a given limb, with no limb used as the basis for more than one attack."

RM2 had bolt-on additional rules for martial artists using multiple attacks, but those were meant for players who were using RM2 as an add-on to D&D. So, I think that was why RMU tries to provide more clarity.

So, some rules to clarify exactly how many attacks you can make per round , what items might apply to each attack, etc., are helpful. The OP also makes clear that his main worry is the martial artist getting too many attacks. The RMU rules put a limit on them that is clearer than in previous editions.

[Cory Magel]

OP doesn't mention a specific version of RM and I think Kata's are only in RMSS. Although I suspect what I'm thinking of is in the Martial Arts Companion. It was a REALLY good companion. Had a lot of great ideas that applied to more than just Monks.

This is what I was thinking of...

Additional Unarmed Attack—This weapon style specializes in using strikes, kicks, and other unarmed fighting techniques while in melee combat. The unarmed attack skill must be developed separately. The cost for this additional attack is 10 points for a Degree 1 damage threshold and 15 points for a Degree 2 damage threshold (damage thresholds cannot be taken higher than Degree 2). When this style is created, the type of unarmed attack (either Striking or Sweeping) must be chosen. When a character, takes an attack action, the restrictions shown below must also be observed. [10 or 15 points]

# 1) The OB for the unarmed attack is the lesser of the Weapon Style skill bonus or the skill bonus for the unarmed attacking skill.

#2) Any OB penalty for parrying or special attacks must modify both attacks equally. If the character is attacking two separate foes, the amount of OB dedicated the parry or special attack may be split between them.

#3) The character can strike one opponent with both attacks at no penalty.

#4) The character can attack two separate opponents as long as neither opponent has a positional bonus
against him. In addition, he must take a -20 modifier to both his weapon OB and unarmed attack OB.

[Hurin]

RM2 had both multiple attacks and katas. Katas were when you combined a weapon with bare-handed strikes or sweeps. These worked differently than multiple attacks (what RMU calls katas).

The rules for these are in for example the Red Band edition, pp. 28-9, in the section on extra rules for Martial Arts if you are using RM as a bolt-on to other systems.

[Cory Magel]

I'd just use existing rules for multiple attacks. Real world Martial Arts are so versitile I don't think I'd concern myself specifically with having a second hand free. Just treat it like a kata where both the 'weapon' and your off hand attacks use the Martial Arts skill. No need to complicate it further.

[jdale]

The subject appears to equate multiple attacks with katas, so that implies RMU, since katas meant something different in previous editions. (RMU will call that other concept "weapon forms" since we're already using the term katas.)

If the question is about RMSS, I agree you ought to just use the rules in the MAC and it becomes moot.

[Ruffie]

Sorry for not replying earlier! I meant RMU indeed. We are looking to move into RMU and switching from RMSS. That means questions and learning.

Thank you for your replies Wise Ones.