Topic: Provinces of Rhakhaan

[Peter R]

Actually, our earls are the equivalent of a European count. That's why earls are married to countesses.

Nowadays, yes; I was describing the way things worked in the earlier Middle Ages, at the time of the 'feudal revolution' (turn of  the tenth/eleventh century). At that time, earl (eorl) was more akin to jarl (to which it is etymologically linked) or duke. The earldom of Wessex or Northumbria, for example, included multiple shires (counties); the earldom of Mercia included Shropshire, Stafforshire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire, Warwickshire, etc. Thus I think we can say that the greater earldoms at least were then more akin to a German stem-duchy like Bavaria or Saxony (which also had formerly been independent kingdoms and also included multiple counties/shires). Thus, when Latin authors translated the names of Anglo-Saxon earls into Latin, they usually translated their title as 'dux' (duke) rather than 'comes' (count). Admittedly, though the terms were already becoming so muddied on the continent that they could at times be interchangeable. It might then be best to view the greater earls as 'dukes', since they ruled multiple counties, but the lesser ones (like Byrhtnoth, who ruled just one shire/county and led its fyrd to the Battle of Maldon) more equivalent to counts.

(I believe the English started importing the title 'Duke' in the fourteenth century, thus somewhat imitating continental terms, but the 'duchies' they created then were a bit different than the old duchies of the early Middle Ages.)

Wikipedia has a reasonably good page on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl

I live in  duchy, that is actually a county but is 'owned' by a duke that is actually a prince. Is that what you mean by muddled?

[Hurin]

I live in  duchy, that is actually a county but is 'owned' by a duke that is actually a prince. Is that what you mean by muddled?

Yes... and I'm even simplifying things a lot!

Here's a fun map to show how France looked in the 12th to 14th centuries:

http://www.rome.webz.cz/France.htm

You can see how there are some more or less independent counties, ruled by counts. But there are also some duchies, like Normandy, which are collections of counties ruled by a duke. To further confuse things, some counts (e.g. the counts of Anjou) conquered surrounding counties by defeating rival independent counts; these aggressive counts thus had as much land and power as a duke (i.e. multiple counties), but they were still generally called counts.

In England, things get even more complicated because the English word earl can be used either for a noble who ruled the equivalent of just one county (e.g. Byrhtnoth ruling Essex), or for the nobles given charge of larger regions that included multiple counties (e.g. Mercia, Northumbria). Mercia is too large to be considered a single shire; it includes multiple shires. So while the earl of Essex could reasonably be considered analogous to a (French) count, the earl of Mercia was more like a (French) duke.

Then things get still more complicated around the 14th century, when English kings start to import the term duke and create duchies, implying that a duke outranks an earl. This is confusing, because the old Earls of Mercia ruled far more territory than the new 'dukes' of Lancaster ever would. And since there is no feminine form of earl, the earl's wife gets called a 'countess'... even though the earl of Mercia's wife was more equivalent to a duchess.

That's probably far more detail than anyone wanted! But if anyone is interested, I hope that explains it.

Have fun in Lancaster or Cornwall!

[Malim]

Looking at that map of France... I fall back to a quote from Aliens, Lets take of and nuke the site from orbit... Its the only way to be sure

[Jenkyna]

it is just encrypted.

An accurate description of my chicken scratch if ever there was one.

[Hurin]

Looking at that map of France... I fall back to a quote from Aliens, Lets take of and nuke the site from orbit... Its the only way to be sure

F***ing A!

[Neee-Wom]

I was thinking about Rhakhaan and travel distances, and I remembered something it was sent to a RQ fórum some time ago. This Project maps the Roman Empire: http://orbis.stanford.edu/ giving travel distances and even an idea of the cost.

I thnk it could be used as a good way to consider distances in Jaiman, specially where old imperial roads are well maintained.

[jdale]

Nice link. I will just pull out these parts that seems super helpful:

Mean daily travel distances have been set at 12 kilometers [7.5miles] per day for ox carts, 20km/day [12.4miles] for porters or heavily loaded mules, 30km/day [18.6miles] for foot travelers including armies on the march, pack animals with moderate loads, mule carts, and camel caravans,[18] 36km/day [22.3miles] for routine private vehicular travel with convenient rest stops, 50km/day [31.0miles] for accelerated private vehicular travel, 56km/day [34.8] for routine travel on horseback, 60km/day for rapid short-term military marches without baggage, 67km/day [37.3miles] for fast carriages (state post or private couriers), and 250km/day [155.3miles] for continuous horse relays (Scheidel in preparation). Except for the final option, which is primarily meant to provide an absolute speed ceiling for multi-day terrestrial information transfer, these transport options are predicated on movement during daytime. Adjustment for night travel would produce higher rates but would usually be feasible only in the short term.

....We cannot therefore presuppose Roman travel speeds that were consistently far superior to those encountered in other premodern communication systems....

Review of data for Alpine travel in the Middle Ages, when road conditions were inferior to those of the Roman imperial period, suggests that at least as far as individual travelers on horseback or in light carriages are concerned, grade did not represent a very serious impediment and did not systematically increase travel times except in extreme circumstances, notably at high-altitude mountain passes (e.g., Ludwig 1897: 108-9, 121, 126-7; Renouard 1961: 113; Castelnuovo 1996). Even winter conditions did not normally impose severe time costs on Alpine crossings (e.g., Ludwig 1897: 118-9; Renouard 1962; but cf. Castelnuovo 1996: 227). Increased travelers’ efforts to minimize time spent in the mountains may have helped maintain routine travel speeds, but this conjecture is not fully compatible with the observation that rest stops before and after mountain crossings are only rarely recorded. More importantly, time costs of heavy transport may well have been more significantly affected by grade....

For the time being, speed adjustments for variation in altitude have only cautiously been applied to the model by adding three degrees of time cost (0.5, 1 and 1.5 extra days for routine vehicular travel and proportionate amounts for other means of transport; cf. Renouard 1962) to mountain roads depending on the scale of ascent and route length. These schematic constraints operate in the Pyrenees, Apennines and Alps and in mountain ranges in the Balkans, Anatolia, and the Maghreb. Seasonal constraints have been kept to a minimum by disallowing particular means of transport such as ox carts and fast carriages in certain winter months in the Pyrenees, Alps, and Taurus....

River transport
....
In the "civilian" mode, the most common downriver speed is 65 kilometers per day (Tiber, Po, Arno, Rhine, Mosel, Rhone, Tyne, Ouse, Witham, Upper Seine, Upper Loire, Upper Garonne, Guadalquivir, Guadiana, Tagus, Upper Danube, Inn, Drava, Sava, Nisava, Middle Euphrates, Orontes, Khabur), with occasional rough adjustments to 75km (Upper Euphrates), 60km (Lower Loire and Garonne), 55km (Middle Danube), 50km (Lower Seine), and 45km (Lower Danube). Daily upriver speeds are set at 15km for all of these rivers except the Lower Tiber, the Rhone and the Euphrates (10km), the Lower Loire and Garonne and the Middle Danube (20km), the Lower Danube (25km), and the Lower Seine (30km). Conditions on the Nile were of considerable complexity but are rendered here in a highly simplified format to capture merely the main trends: downriver speeds in Lower Egypt are set at 90km from July to October and at 35km in other months, and at 100km from July to October and 50km in other months in Upper Egypt. The upriver values are 90km in Lower Egypt from July to October and 30km in other months, and 65km from July to October and 35km in other months in Upper Egypt. Canals are assigned a daily default rate of 15km in both directions that conservatively presupposes towing. The "military" mode is constant at 120km per day downriver and 50km upriver, which approximates the probable performance of oar-driven vessels....

The simulations restrict travel to daylight hours, which is a conservative assumption given that at least during the summer boats may have navigated rivers at night (cf. also Horace, Satires 5). Certain very fast attested voyages imply continuous movement. This restriction stems from concerns that the provision of a continuous travel option might generate values that are too high to serve as plausible averages even in favorable conditions. The notional daytime values applied by the simulations are best seen as a hybrid between the outcome of genuine daylight travel and continuous travel, in that the projected daylight rates likely overstate actual daily averages, which would routinely have been affected by various kinds of interruptions and obstacles. The model thus compensates for the absence of a continuous travel option by projecting relatively high average values for daytime travel.

[MisterK]

There is a map of Rhakhaan with all the provinces that originally was on the back cover of Haalkitaine, and will be reprinted inside the new Jaiman. Haalkitaine also listed many important nobles and the demesnes they were granted. It might be useful in the upcoming 2nd Edition of Haalkitaine to list the provinces separately, though there is a tangle of Duchies, Counties, etc...

With all due respect to Terry and his work, the map does not list *all* the provinces, even if you consider that only Duchies are "provinces" (actually and if I remember well, those that are missing are those that are imperial domain - when you check the title list of Emperor Jerrin III, he is duke of at least four duchies and none of them are listed on the map). The map, on the other hand, lists a number of lesser domains.
This was one of my minor gripes with the Haalkitaine book - I would have loved to see at least all the locations that were listed in the nobility section

Another gripe, and this one was (and still is) more significant, was the nobility list, and more specifically the depth of the family trees. Basically, it looked like most ranking nobles were in the 50-80 y.o range, with children in the 20-40 (and the exceptional grandchildren). The oldest noble listed (with the exception of the elven-blooded such as the Prince of Lethys) was Princess Morgana at 125.

But Zori are supposed to have a 200+ lifespan.

I checked the line of the kings of Gondor from Middle Earth for comparison purposes (the Dunedain are the archetypal "high men" and pretty close to Zori as far as lifespan is concerned). It was drastically different - kings were being crowned at the death of their father and, barring death on the field of battle, most of them were crowned when in their 120-150s and reigned about 50-80 years. Which typically means that they could be great-grandfathers themselves even before they were crowned.
I was expecting a similar situation in Rhakhaan, perhaps slightly "compressed" because of a slightly lower lifespan, but in any case, I was expecting to see 3-4 generations on the average. Some of the families could have been "pruned" because of the Usurper war, but certainly not all, if only because most high-ranking nobles are probably reluctant to risk their life in battle if their own lands are not threatened.

I got the impression that the lineages had been inspired by the english nobility a bit too much, and that the specific Zor lifespan had not been taken into account. It would have made more sense with Jameri noblemen given the relative lifespans.

So, given that Terry hinted as a "Haalkitaine II" book in the making, may I suggest that those sections could benefit from a revision to make them more in line with what Zor families would probably be, with the 'reigning' nobles being in their 120-150s instead of being half that age... or to explain why the Rhakhaan noblemen seldom reach half their life expectancy

[let me tell you - it is far worse with elves. In my last campaign, one of the PCs was a Loar - a Jeranian from Namar-Tol, and I had to write up the whole family tree from the time the Iylari set foot on the shores of Namar-Tol (c. 3000 SEI) to 6072 TEI. Thankfully, elves only have children when they do not focus on anything else ]

[RandalThor]

But Zori are supposed to have a 200+ lifespan.

And that would definitely make a difference in many ways, not just who is still around and at what age one would gain the crown. This is a common problem in just about every rpg ever: they want these massive fantasy elements, but try to shoehorn them into the same old Earth-human of the Middle-Ages shape. I see this happening to Kulthea as time, and editions, march on.

Earlier editions had a more high-fantasy feel, which is what drew me to the setting. I mean, just look at the cover of the old Jaiman book: the Dragonlord's Citadel is awesome. And inside, you got the Tower of the Third Moon and other structures that do not look like the bog-standard Middle-Ages/fantasy type structures, but cool high-fantasy types like you would see in Conan or The Beastmaster. But, as the editions progressed, it seems as though the setting has been being "mainstreamed" to fit more the generic fantasy style settings, which is too bad imo.

As for the age related differences, this is one of the main reasons I think that settings like this can have longer lasting eras. Fewer generations generally mean slower advancement (both socially and technologically), resulting in a more static society. So, it would not be strange for that setting to have 5,000 to 6,000 years of history be the equivalent of the 2,000 to 3,000 years of our, Earth, history. In this respect, I think Shadow World works. What you mention about their not being an appropriate age-range for the various npcs is a very valid criticism, too. I understand why, we have a hard time understanding that a 90 year old can be more like a 30-40 year old, it doesn't seem "right," so we mentally (subconsciously) rebel against it. Players in game with races that can live to be 300, 400, 500, or even 600 years old have a hard time coming to terms with the idea that their level 1 character could actually be 100 years old already. This is why I constantly get gnomes, elves, dwarves, etc... of 1st level that are still in their teens or barely 20. The players just cannot conceive of the very different way age would/could be handled for such beings. (Lets not even get started on immortals....)

[MisterK]

And that would definitely make a difference in many ways, not just who is still around and at what age one would gain the crown. This is a common problem in just about every rpg ever: they want these massive fantasy elements, but try to shoehorn them into the same old Earth-human of the Middle-Ages shape. I see this happening to Kulthea as time, and editions, march on.

Earlier editions had a more high-fantasy feel, which is what drew me to the setting. I mean, just look at the cover of the old Jaiman book: the Dragonlord's Citadel is awesome. And inside, you got the Tower of the Third Moon and other structures that do not look like the bog-standard Middle-Ages/fantasy type structures, but cool high-fantasy types like you would see in Conan or The Beastmaster. But, as the editions progressed, it seems as though the setting has been being "mainstreamed" to fit more the generic fantasy style settings, which is too bad imo.

You are right about the high-fantasy elements, though I think they are still prevalent when the books describe a place far from centers of civilisation. The problem is more prevalent when describing cultures - because, consciously or not, we tend to model fantasy cultures along historical ones, which leaves little room for high fantasy. And thus, you still have run-of-the-mill standard medieval feudal or post-feudal cultures mirroring western european ones, and the only concession made to fantasy is that magic such as wound healing, warding and divination are more or less considered because they have very little impact on the way people live (and because standard medieval folklore did include them). But including such things as the importance of magical support in a kingdom's military, for instance ? That would wreck the standard medieval model, so we tend to conveniently ignore it.

As for the age related differences, this is one of the main reasons I think that settings like this can have longer lasting eras. Fewer generations generally mean slower advancement (both socially and technologically), resulting in a more static society. So, it would not be strange for that setting to have 5,000 to 6,000 years of history be the equivalent of the 2,000 to 3,000 years of our, Earth, history. In this respect, I think Shadow World works. What you mention about their not being an appropriate age-range for the various npcs is a very valid criticism, too. I understand why, we have a hard time understanding that a 90 year old can be more like a 30-40 year old, it doesn't seem "right," so we mentally (subconsciously) rebel against it. Players in game with races that can live to be 300, 400, 500, or even 600 years old have a hard time coming to terms with the idea that their level 1 character could actually be 100 years old already. This is why I constantly get gnomes, elves, dwarves, etc... of 1st level that are still in their teens or barely 20. The players just cannot conceive of the very different way age would/could be handled for such beings. (Lets not even get started on immortals....)

In my last campaign, there were four PCs :
- a Laan (in her fifties, meaning an adult but not old by any means)
- a half-elf (turning 100, which meant that he began to understand the difference between "long-lived humans" and "ever-youthful potential immortals" as his wife was on her last days)
- a 900-year-old Loar from Namar-Tol who had an aunt younger than he was, children older than his sister, and who had associated with human families in a way that made him mistake his skyship pilot friend with his great-grandfather (who was also a skyship pilot and with whom he had worked on occasion)
- a 1650-year-old Linaer from Lys who had seen the rise of Eidolon over Sel-Kai and had been a part of the first permanent Lysian embassy there, whose grandmother had been a decisive influence over the split between Linaeri and Loari that led to the creation of the kingdom of Lys (and was still sexy as ever, according to the other characters :p), and who, after having lived a couple of centuries in Kaitaine, still could not really think he was part of the city.
I have people who like to RP those aspects, and seeing the psychological differences between the four of them was great fun.

Technically, however, they were all L20. I have dissociated the purely technical abilities from the level - the level is not an indication of technical expertise, but it is a ranking of how much a person has seen of the secrets of the world and how involved they are in the "real deals". In the lower levels, there is often a strong correlation between the two for short-lived races (though it can be a very different story for long-lived and immortal races), but this is not the case anymore at higher levels. In my next iteration, I will probably also dissociate opposed technical skills (which require some kind of direct conflict to progress) and knowledge/passive skills (which require learning, practice, stury, experimentation... but not necessarily conflict).

But going back to the length of Shadow World post-interregnum chronology, I would fully agree with you if all races were long-lived. However, the more numerous races (Shay, Jameri, Haid, Lydians...) are short-lived ones - their lifespan are similar to real-life humans. If they had the same evolution drive as real-life humans, long-lived races would be left sniffing dust.
I can understand why the statu quo could be preserved in Jaiman, especially in Rhakhaan where the Zori have a tight grip on the upper social ranks, but large cities such as Sel-Kai and Kaitaine, where "common men" are prevalent in all social strata including the highest ones, should evolve much faster.

I think that part of the explanation lies elsewhere, both in the presence of magic and in the fact that Shadow World races are, in most cases, created races.
I would assume that the Althan did not gene-engineered their servant races for their capability for innovation - that would have been an incredible risk. They engineered them for expertise in mundane fields and capability to work with the tools they had, but not for the ability to question the statu quo. This, alone, would provide a sufficient dampener to explain why cultural and technological innovation is so slow on Kulthea - slow enough that having cataclysmic events once every few millenia is sufficient to keep the lid on any significant advancement. Only in places where peace can be enforced for millenia would have sufficient time to advance significantly (Namar-Tol, or the Interregnum Jinteni). On the other hand, any "finding" would be quickly adopted and integrated, because innovation is not required (a perfect example is Clycallah in Gaalt).

The second aspect, the presence of magic, is not so much a root cause as a constant dampener on scientific thinking and technological innovation: magic is chaotic by nature, and it routinely breaks the physical laws. Since magic cannot be denied, it means that rational thought is not THE way to go, and is often neglected. After all, any scientific paper which ends up with "we can conclude with confidence that, in the absence of any magical field,..." is basically worthless in a world where magic is prevalent (regardless of whether its *use* is prevalent or not). So, the presence of a magical field that violates the laws of physics and does not follow laws of its own tends to stifle any attempt to rationalise the world and promote scientific and technological innovation.

When you mix both, and add in races that tend to gaze at their navel rather than actually do something, you can keep a world in stasis for a very long time

[RandalThor]

You are right about the high-fantasy elements, though I think they are still prevalent when the books describe a place far from centers of civilisation. The problem is more prevalent when describing cultures - because, consciously or not, we tend to model fantasy cultures along historical ones, which leaves little room for high fantasy. And thus, you still have run-of-the-mill standard medieval feudal or post-feudal cultures mirroring western european ones, and the only concession made to fantasy is that magic such as wound healing, warding and divination are more or less considered because they have very little impact on the way people live (and because standard medieval folklore did include them). But including such things as the importance of magical support in a kingdom's military, for instance ? That would wreck the standard medieval model, so we tend to conveniently ignore it.

Agreed, we tend to go with what we know. Familiarity, it is a strong aphrodisiac.

Technically, however, they were all L20. I have dissociated the purely technical abilities from the level - the level is not an indication of technical expertise, but it is a ranking of how much a person has seen of the secrets of the world and how involved they are in the "real deals". In the lower levels, there is often a strong correlation between the two for short-lived races (though it can be a very different story for long-lived and immortal races), but this is not the case anymore at higher levels. In my next iteration, I will probably also dissociate opposed technical skills (which require some kind of direct conflict to progress) and knowledge/passive skills (which require learning, practice, stury, experimentation... but not necessarily conflict).

Well them being 20th level (which is roughly the equivalent of 8th to 9th level characters in D&D, as far as I am concerned), does sort of stray from the point a little. (Damn it! I still cannot use the emojis and stuff - to do italics or bold I have to type it in manually.)

But going back to the length of Shadow World post-interregnum chronology, I would fully agree with you if all races were long-lived. However, the more numerous races (Shay, Jameri, Haid, Lydians...) are short-lived ones - their lifespan are similar to real-life humans. If they had the same evolution drive as real-life humans, long-lived races would be left sniffing dust.
I can understand why the statu quo could be preserved in Jaiman, especially in Rhakhaan where the Zori have a tight grip on the upper social ranks, but large cities such as Sel-Kai and Kaitaine, where "common men" are prevalent in all social strata including the highest ones, should evolve much faster.

I think the key is both that the longer-lived (and often more physically capable, and just as capable magically) would be in charge, and that would set the pace - even in other places. Though I do agree that the following reason is probably the biggest factor. That and the idea that actual gods might inhibit technological progress - the Lords of Orhan saw what the K'ta'viir did with their technology, they might be inclined to subtly guide their followers in another direction. 

I think that part of the explanation lies elsewhere, both in the presence of magic and in the fact that Shadow World races are, in most cases, created races.
I would assume that the Althan did not gene-engineered their servant races for their capability for innovation - that would have been an incredible risk. They engineered them for expertise in mundane fields and capability to work with the tools they had, but not for the ability to question the statu quo. This, alone, would provide a sufficient dampener to explain why cultural and technological innovation is so slow on Kulthea - slow enough that having cataclysmic events once every few millenia is sufficient to keep the lid on any significant advancement. Only in places where peace can be enforced for millenia would have sufficient time to advance significantly (Namar-Tol, or the Interregnum Jinteni). On the other hand, any "finding" would be quickly adopted and integrated, because innovation is not required (a perfect example is Clycallah in Gaalt).

The second aspect, the presence of magic, is not so much a root cause as a constant dampener on scientific thinking and technological innovation: magic is chaotic by nature, and it routinely breaks the physical laws. Since magic cannot be denied, it means that rational thought is not THE way to go, and is often neglected. After all, any scientific paper which ends up with "we can conclude with confidence that, in the absence of any magical field,..." is basically worthless in a world where magic is prevalent (regardless of whether its *use* is prevalent or not). So, the presence of a magical field that violates the laws of physics and does not follow laws of its own tends to stifle any attempt to rationalise the world and promote scientific and technological innovation.

When you mix both, and add in races that tend to gaze at their navel rather than actually do something, you can keep a world in stasis for a very long time

Yes, there are a myriad of factors on Kulthea, though I believe that the primary one is magic, as you mention here (and I forgot to mention earlier). The fact of the matter is, that magic on Kulthea isn't chaotic, it is really just another type of science, with formula and specific methods that get specific results. If you do the things needed to cast a Firebolt spell over and over, you get a Firebolt spell over and over. That is science. (Not that you can't mess it up and cause something else to happen, but that happens in science too, as we are fallible beings.) So, with the science of magic to delve into, and to take the place of other technologies/sciences, it is not surprising that those are stunted compared to a world without magic. (Say, our Earth, for example. ;-)  ) I firmly believe that it the biggest factor (by a wide margin) of why all of these fantasy worlds with long, long histories are still where they are technologically. More so than the lifespans of the various races or even the presence of Gods - unless it is described in the setting that the gods take an active roll in inhibiting technological growth. (OK, that and the writers/designers wanted it that way...)

This is far afield from the original reason for the thread, but it is interesting and I will allow it. :-)