Topic: Pronunciation of Shadow World names.

[Jenkyna]

I'm wondering if there is any guide to pronouncing the names in Shadow World? I'm not even sure if the æ should be pronounced "ai" or "iy" or a short "aa" like in ad or and. Based on web searches any of those are potentially valid. I haven't the faintest idea where to begin with fantasy names like K'ta'viiri or Ky'tari. I don't like to pronounce fantasy names wrong to players, and they end up having to correct me. I'd rather do them the service of getting it right out of the gate.

[Malim]

Æ i think should be prenounced at the Danish letter Æ like when you say EH? (AE)

[craggles]

I have the same problem as well - I don't even know how Jaiman or Emer should be pronounced, let alone the multiple races and place names. 

[terefang]

I have the same problem as well - I don't even know how Jaiman or Emer should be pronounced, let alone the multiple races and place names. 

from my hideously anglo-german hybrid language background, i pronounce those:

Jaiman -> CHAY-MEN or JHAY-MAN
Emer -> E-MEER

ie.
"J" is english /CH/ like in church or /JH/ as in Judge
"ai" is english /AY/ resembling german /EI/
reference the word "chai" in various languages meaning Tea/Tee in anglo/german.


see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_respelling_for_English

at least we should stick to indo-european or better indo-germanic language traditions.

[Jenkyna]

at least we should stick to indo-european or better indo-germanic language traditions.

Jhay-man is basically how I have been pronouncing Jaiman. Those references do help.

There is a rule of world design that comes from Tolkein. He used names like "The Misty Mountains" in Middle Earth because they are instantly relatable to the reader even though the reader can't actually see them. Even made up names like Mordor or Angband give an instant sense of the place just from the sound. I think indo-germanic or indo-european rules make sense for a similar reason; they have to be relatable and pronounceable by a target audience who speaks English.

Is there a rule that helps shed light on how you would pronounce K'ta'viiri? I see the ' used after the first character in lots of Fantasy names, but I have never been sure how that is really supposed to be spoken. I read that Dune was the inspiration for Spacemasters universe, and Dune drew from Arabic for names like Muad'Dib. Does Kulthea have the same Duneish origins for the sci-fi aspect of it's history? I've always pronounced the K in K'ta'viiri as 'Kay,' similar to how you would pronounce the O in O'Brian.

This was about the best resource I can find. Most of the other hits were less about analysis, and more about criticism.

https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/apostrophes-in-science-fiction-and-fantasy-names

Æ i think should be prenounced at the Danish letter Æ like when you say EH? (AE)

The only problem I have with that is Kadæna and many of the other names sound wrong if you insert an 'eh' sound in place of the Æ; at least to my ear. In the end it all boils down to what Terry was thinking when he designed the names though. If he says it's EH then it's EH.

[Nightblade42]

Here's my take (on the words mentioned):

Jaiman -> jheye-man (I always seem to pronounce "ai" like it is in Cantonese - ex: Tai-Pan -> "tie-pahn")
Emer -> ee-mer
K'ta'viiri -> kah-tah-veer-ee (tho I can see how it should probably be "kay-tah-veer-ee")
Kadæna -> kah-day-nah

But then, that's how I pronounce them.  I'm sure TKA pronounces them differently.

Nightblade ->--

[jdale]

I take the apostrophe as a very brief pause between the parts of the word, it keeps the letters before and after from modifying each other, and there's no ambiguity about whether ta'viir is supposed to be tav-iir or ta-viir.

If there's a consonant with no vowel before an apostrophe, I take that as making the sound of the consonant with the absolute minimal bit of vowel sound. Not the name of the letter, which itself varies between different languages (e.g. z'far would be either zee'far or zed'far depending on where you are from) and would therefore be confusing. So k'ta is more like ke'ta (but make that 'e' as brief and soft as possible) than kay'ta.

Is this technically correct? I don't know either, it's just how I read it.

[Jraffa]

Emer book has a guide in the back page 95-96.

[Jenkyna]

. So k'ta is more like ke'ta (but make that 'e' as brief and soft as possible) than kay'ta.

Thanks, that also helps.

Emer book has a guide in the back page 95-96.

Emer I?

[terefang]

Emer book has a guide in the back page 95-96.

that is ICE 6100 - Emer The Great Continent (Boxed Set)

it does not look like IPA, so there is no context for all thos special chars, but it basically says:

Jaiman -> JI` MUN
Emer -> EE` MEER
K'ta'viir -> KUH` TA` VEER

but knowing a little bit arabic/persian the "k'"->"kuh", "man"->"mun" variations are very context sensitive.

eg. in arabic/persian you have

K'T'B -> KEY-TABE (persian), but KEE-TAA-BH (arabic)
also
ZM-ZM -> ZAAM-ZAAM (iranian cola/fanta/sprite clone) is pronounced ZEM-ZEM in some regions.
also
ALFRED -> AAL-FRED (german) is pronounced AAL-FE-RED (arabic/persian)
to name just a few examples

[craggles]

Jaiman -> JI` MUN
Emer -> EE` MEER
K'ta'viir -> KUH` TA` VEER

but knowing a little bit arabic/persian the "k'"->"kuh", "man"->"mun" variations are very context sensitive.

eg. in arabic/persian you have

K'T'B -> KEY-TABE (persian), but KEE-TAA-BH (arabic)
also
ZM-ZM -> ZAAM-ZAAM (iranian cola/fanta/sprite clone) is pronounced ZEM-ZEM in some regions.
also
ALFRED -> AAL-FRED (german) is pronounced AAL-FE-RED (arabic/persian)
to name just a few examples

Oooh, I love the way Emer is pronounced!!
Jaiman sounds very Jamaican though.

I had been pronouncing it as Jay-man and k'ta'viir as Kay-tar-veer

[Jenkyna]

Ok, I was thinking of the box set as Emer I, but I guess that isn't quite correct. I do have that box set, and I see the glossary has a pronunciation guide. I probably had that stored away in the dim recesses of my memory somewhere.

If it's not in any of the newer releases I might suggest adding that glossary back in for the next version of the Master Atlas. I still haven't read some of the other recent releases, so apologies if it's already in one of those.

[Implementor]

For us:

Jaiman- Jay-min

Emer- Emm-urr

K'ta'Viir- Kuh-tah-vye-eer    I split the I's in viir because it's more aesthetically pleasing sounding. Kuh-tah-veer doesn't roll off the tongue nicely, the extra syllable adds just the right touch.  (This is one of my favorite names/designations to say, ever, along with the K'Chain Che'malle)

[terefang]

Emer- Emm-urr

an interesting variation, ... just for interest: what is your native language?

[Implementor]

The short version:

English, Western Canadian-Style


The longer version:

It never occurred to me that it could be ee-mer or em-eer, too close to emir and in this case the 'ee's sound sort of 'not pretty' to me heh. As to pronunciations of new/unfamiliar words : Part of it may be lazy vowels or liking the lazy vowel sound better, Not Jay-man, but Jay-min. I also tend to use German pronunciation as a basis for unfamiliar words. Aesthetics matter. The way a word looks or sounds/feels in your mind. Kuh-tah-vye-eer is more elegant sounding, the extra syllable. I really like that word, K'ta'Viir.

I've always found it interesting how people interpret pronunciations differently, even find it in close, small groups. As a side note, there's a lot of great names and words in Shadow World. Kadaena, Quaidu, Clycallah, Jerak Ahrenreth, and all the Dragonlords come immediately to mind. Delicious.

[Jenkyna]

As a side note, there's a lot of great names and words in Shadow World. Kadaena, Quaidu, Clycallah, Jerak Ahrenreth, and all the Dragonlords come immediately to mind. Delicious.

Terry did a good job following the Tolkein rule for naming places. Names like the Black Mountains, or The Crystal Sea give you an immediate feel for what the place is. I think his made up languages do a good job of conveying an emotion or feel for the person or place as well. Kadæna sounds imperious, but also cold and alien too.

[terefang]

The short version:

English, Western Canadian-Style

... I also tend to use German pronunciation as a basis for unfamiliar words. ...

interesting ... i am native Austrian (related to German Bavarian) speaker,
but on first sight i would pronounce much different.

must be the familiarity with latin and persian languages that makes me shift to other pronounciations.

that makes me wonder if one adapts the names to semitic writing and back again:

Kadaena -> KDN -> KADANA
K'ta'viir -> KTVR -> KETEVERE
Jerak Ahrenreth -> JRK HRNRTH -> JARAKA AHRENERETAHE

i think i should put some ranks into more languages

[Majyk]

I’m with Nightblade on most keys except
K'ta'viiri = kay-tah-veer-ee
Kadæna = kuh-day-nah

Appreciate TKA’S Emer key re-found.  Nice sleuth work.

Here's my take (on the words mentioned):

Jaiman -> jheye-man (I always seem to pronounce "ai" like it is in Cantonese - ex: Tai-Pan -> "tie-pahn")
Emer -> ee-mer
K'ta'viiri -> kah-tah-veer-ee (tho I can see how it should probably be "kay-tah-veer-ee")
Kadæna -> kah-day-nah

But then, that's how I pronounce them.  I'm sure TKA pronounces them differently.

Nightblade ->--

[Nightblade42]

See, this is why I'm a linguistics nerd (but not a linguist!).  I love reading, disecting & listening to language.  The fact that TKA created a bunch of words to name things/people in Shadow World & that we all have our own pronounciation of those words just makes me smile.

Nightblade ->--

[egdcltd]

For me, Jaiman - Jay-man.

Emer - either em-ir or em-err.

K'ta'viiri - k-tar-veere-e. Bonus points if you can pronounce "veere" like Londo Mollari pronounces "Vir."