Topic: History of Ulor

[egdcltd]

Sent you my All of Lethys zip, hope it's the one you're after.

[Elrik]

Got it, thank you!

[Elrik]

I never saw this one... just what was on the website... thanks

[Walt]

Current: U-Lyshaak: The king is faced with a battle on many sides, half his kingdom is held by Vorn, Saralis is rattling sabres, Ly-aran is a land held by monsters and Rhakhaan has forces and territory held by citizens of Rhakhaan. U-lyshaak needs money, and the King begins to weight his options. Rhakhaan would be more then willing to fund his rebuilding, but there would be strings, Norek would lend with a pledge of rights, meaning they are exempt from the Kingdom, but he needs their tax. The young king levels his gaze at Sel Kay... possibly his only reasonable option.  Rhakhaan dispatches negotiators to disrupt the conversations being had by Sel Kay's elite and the nobles of U-Lyshak. Merchants of Sel Kay are not easily swayed from Profit. Negotiations go well.

I like it! Could also be that Sulton has his hands in lending money to Kier. This would earn him money, counter Lorgalis, and Sulton hiself can concentrate on Saralis and Rhakhaan.

[Elrik]

Hey Walt,

Absolutely. This is a perfect time to hurt Ulor. Due to the loans, the many Noble Houses are sending more ships north, filling the Ulor bay with "Security" vessels. Trade increases and a new awakening happens. This sudden metropolitan view may even garner the interest of a certain Imperial Princess. I don't think the Noble Houses would fight for U-Lyshak, but they will defend their ships, and they are one of the greatest water trading cities in the World. Their captains are not little children, but hard won captains with money and life at stake. Pirates be warned.

For the  first time in decades, Norek watches flying ships travel over their city and head inland without stopping. 

[Walt]

Hey Walt,

I think I am in the right place  

Cloud Lords
SE c. 5500 - 6500: The D?ranaki, living in fear of attacks from above, begin to move underground on a more permanent basis. They expand and improve their cavern-homes and begin to adapt to subterranean living.

This is only in the Cloud Lords...
SE c6010-6028 - Much of Tanara is occupied by Rhakhaan forces. Only the Elves of Urulan stand in his way to ruling the entire continent  I don't think there was that much of a force to be dealt with. Most of the real power moved underground over the first 500 years of their subterranal existence. Those that stayed above would be the ones that refused to go underground, and a number running away to Urulan. The hold outs would have returned and possibly gone underground over the next 500 years.

The War of Dominion happens: Afterwords Rhakhaan is even smaller then when it started off.

TE c4010 ? 4500 - Rhekhaan seems to return to Tanara. Again, surface people run. I simply can not see Rhakhaan getting into the caves of the Duranki. But all that land is only held by Talath, some bitter laans in a cave, water elves and lugroki. No real force other then the bitter laan.

It took me a while to find the 6010 reference as I don't use Cloud Lords much.

Preparing the next session I?ve got again to make my mind up about Jaimans history. I have the ffeling that this "new" Tanara Time line is very well developd.
To summarize: first the Priest Arank develop enough military power to press the original people, the Duranki, under the ground. And only some few hundred years later Rhakhaan forces enter and conquer Tanara to make war against Urulan? I don?t like it very much, it don?t have the feeling "this fits".
Let?s assume the Rhakhaan Forces came over some pass or whatever into Tanara. Wouldn?t they find a very wild county dominated by wild creatures and unlife? If so, this was a very, very costly session....

[metallion]

I see quite a few opportunities for tension in Jaiman in a post-Crown Saga era.

The Dragonlord has been driven back.  Kier and Jerrin have established an uneasy peace that does not and will not involve Kier marrying Princess Tatiana.  Vorn is pressed on all side, and even Ulor is in check.

Don't get too complacent just yet. 

Muliria probably likes being under Rhakhaani control about as much as Scotland and Northern Ireland like being under English control.  Wuliris, once three full empires unto themselves, aren't any happier about it -- and the Phoenix is a power far away given that the mountains make Haalkitaine remote and water conditions make the trip from Lethys to Alaros a long one -- bedies which, Rhakhaan has a laughably small navy for a nation with as much coastline as it does.  Sel-Kai could potentially run a skyship route to Onopole or Alaros, but they would on'y do something that strengthened Rhakhaan like that if they could extract concessions as painful for the Phoenix as they are profitable for Rylec.

Can you say widespread rebellion?  I knew you could. With a common foe like the Phoenix to rally around, the forces of Lyak, the Lot, the men and elves of Wuliris, and the Dwarves forge an alliance.  Onopole falls overnight, it's burning savagely avenged by Dwarves who know secret ways in that even the Rock of the Blade never found.  The Phoenix wakes up one morning to reports a month out of date that Land and sea routes into Wuliris are simply not available to the Phoenix until such time as their independence is recognized.

You just know that Urulan will fall over itself to send a diplomat to Free Wuliris, recognize them, and start trading and supporting their rebellion.  Elven memory is long, and any chance to humiliate the Phoenix and put them back in their place is a good one.

In the West, Lorgalis isn't about to take the new pressures on him lying down.  Might King Alzion countenance an alliance if Lorgalis dangles a viceroyalty in front of him?  If pride's an obstacle, might the opportunity to not have to worry about Xa'ar at his back persuade him instead?

[Elrik]

Rhakhaan has a laughably small navy

I found that at bit weak as well, then it struck me... This is a Feudal System. The Nobles in the regions are expected to provide ships, on par with income. The wealthy Lords along the coast have to provide up to three war ships. So that means there is the potential for another 20 or so ships total. Possibly more. I would guess that Lethys has up to 6 warships of it's own to protect it's own interests.

Problem is that Jaiman is as much high cliff as it is deadly bays. So all these Dukes and Powerful lords build their ships in Lethys. I would guess there are over 40 warships (of varying size and might) in the country.

When ever I think Wuliris, I think there are like less then 20,000 people, and when Rhakhaan was done there was 8. Now there are a few hundred and 5 million sheep.

[metallion]

Mind you, that's 5 million house-sized, bouncing sheep.

40 ships still seems small for a navy large enough to have taken on the Free Fleet of Wuliris and keep Plasidar and Praeten from rolling all over them.

[Elrik]

My wife wonders at the knitting potential of sheep that large. It must be a culture of sweaters!

Did some research and found this on Wiki:
Between 1793 and 1815 the Royal Navy lost 344 vessels due to non-combat causes: 75 by foundering, 254 shipwrecked and 15 from accidental burnings or explosions. In the same period it lost 103,660 seamen: 84,440 by disease and accidents, 12,680 by shipwreck or foundering, and 6,540 by enemy action.

...1547 his fleet had grown to 58 vessels

So I think I am a wee bit under in my idea. SO rethinking this, in my game Rhakhaan is going to put Plasidar to knee. Although I hate to compare Rhakhaan to 1793 England, I know think that the Jaiman Empire would have over a hundred ships easily spread out across the many shores. The lands in Tanara would have a ship yard and have produced dozens of ships over the years. The angry waters of that area would chew up ships and crews like hungry beast, and that is not even considering the local pirates.

The many Bays in Southern Jaiman are a perfect breeding ground for pirates both big and small. I have reworked and added over 95 war ships, with another 50 support ships. That doesn't even include the smaller ships and vessels that smaller communities use to defend their ports and coast - if they can even do that. My total ship count is 180 ships, give or take accidents, sinking, out of commission and in dry dock to be repaired.

When Rhakhaan invaded Wuliris they would have had dozens of ships. Then when they crushed the fleet they would have claimed what they could and a number would have returned in groups. While they are in Wuliris they begin to build up ships as ships left. There would be a stage of steps that weaken and then must be reinforced. I am going to dump about 30 warships and another 20 support ships. 

I haven't even taken into consideration the number of ships that moved into the Bay of Ulor and run the coast. Then when U-lyshak regained her king and crown, they are just sitting there. Now I think those ships may try to build a beach head in Xa-ar, claiming some of the local populous or even bringing in their own. Build a harbour and barracks, land those soldiers an start to treat it like their lands. 30 ships in a tight space can cause a fair bit of misery for the Raiders of Ulor.

I will have to think a bit more. I usually don't use ships. In the late 80s we ran a series of pirate adventures but that lasted maybe 12 games and we left it for land.

I think I am going to start writing some of this stuff up.

[egdcltd]

One likely major difference between the Rhakhaan Navy and the Royal Navy is that the Royal Navy had ships all over the world. Rhakhaan's are probably mostly around Jaiman. If Rhakhaan's went exploring, it's quite possible they would lose more ships than the RN - after all, the RN didn't have to worry about Essence Barriers, Flows and Storms, or sea monsters.

[Elrik]

I agree egdcltd. That is why I didn't have 400 ships. I am figuring they would need enough ships to cover their entire coast, up into Tanara and way up to Wuliris. As I understand it the Royal Navy was hundreds strong... if not into the early teens. But I have no real record at the moment so take this as conjecture and theory based upon loss of ships and life.

Finally, it is just the way I am doing it, and has no basis on the Core Shadow World Themes. In a way Rhakhaan is so aggressive yet they haven't moved into the Bays and Seas... so I moved into the Bay and Seas. In my World Rhakhaan is going to spank Plasidar and use it as fortified presence to sent out more ships to gain more land. I have a 15 year plan in game. One of my players is a Squire so he will be on the cusp of things. Should be good and bloody. Especially since Plasidar is a very experienced force to contend with.

[egdcltd]

According to Wikipedia, the RN had the following in 1877:

"The total strength of the British navy in 1877 was 533 vessels, of 677,883 tons, and which carried 5080 guns, some being of the enormous weight of 81 tons. It should be explained, however, that more than half of these were returned as ?in reserve and building?, the number in commission being 230 ships, with a tonnage of 307,072 tons and 1939 guns. The ironclad fleet comprised 61 vessels, many of which were of far more powerful construction than those of any other nation in the world. ? There served in the fleet in commission 25,500 officers and men, 2854 boys, and 6385 marines, being a total naval complement of 34,770."

This was essentially the most powerful navy in the world at that time, and was also close to industrialised sea warfare.

According to the RN website:

The fleet greatly increased in size, from about 270 ships in 1700 to about 500 in 1793 and almost 950 vessels in 1805. The larger size fleet required more seamen. In peacetime the numbers were much less than in today's Navy and varied from 12,000 to 20,000 men during the Eighteenth Century.

Numbers like this are unlikely unless you are facing a major naval foe, with extensive travel across the world required. However, with less technologically advanced ships, greater numbers are possible. Venice in 1450 had over 3,000 ships in operation, most of which could be converted to warships as needed.

[metallion]

My wife wonders at the knitting potential of sheep that large. It must be a culture of sweaters!

You shear it.

The way we play it is informed by the Australian Folk Song New South Wales

Here we are in New South Wales
Shearing sheep as big as whales
With leather necks and draggy tails
Fleece as sharp as rust nails

Their wool is too harsh for clothing and their meat too tough for eating unless you're a Lugrok and let it soak in brandy for a week.  Even pre-adolescent Murlogi turn it down, and they'll eat Snow Gark if you drown it in tamarind sauce.

[Elrik]

metallion - my wife would still try to knit it. She has one room stuffed to bursting with wool and half the basement... she would try 

egdcltd - I always thought the RH had more, but when I sit back and think about it, that is a hell of a lot of ships! The price you pay to maintain the Empire eh. Or at least the appearance of an Empire.

[Walt]

Now of which time are we speaking? Third Era round about 6000 TE?
@eg: thanks for checking out the wiki, but the RN 1877 with the common wealth and imperialistic ideas was probably much bigger the the Rhakhaan Empire

Because we started with Ulor, and it?s becoming more and more a thread for the full history of Jaiman, some observations and perceptions of mine:
For the Rhakhaan Empire to become an aggresive imperialistic state first of all this regulating crown thing had to become obsolete, and the prayings of the Loremasters for a non-aggresive politics had to be ignored. In the Second Era there was only a brief period of time (after 6000 SE) for any aggresive behaviour.

Than there is the period of Kelir VI, conquering Tanara 4008 TE. The Master Atlas states that at 4500 TE "Rhakhaan controls nearly all of the mainland" . Everything is crushed again after the assasination of Arej X1 in 4515 TE, Rhakhaan becomes politically fragmented.

In 5904 Italana begins with the "Great Consolidation", conquering Tanara, then Wuliris, planning to strike at Urulan etc.

I myself have some problems with the numbers of ships etc we discuss. I myself can?t see the ressources of the Rhakhaan Empire. Only looking at the map of Jaiman I have troubles. The only realistic way way into Tanara is  the Blackhorn Pass, a high mountain pass closed at least half the year. So a realistic situation for the conquering forces is that every year they are robbed of any ressources from their mother land for half a year, in enemy territory. Doesn?t sound for me like a good foothold, doesn?t attune me to the idea of a big imperial navy in the bay of Urulan wearing the phoenix. Sounds more like "let?s try to survive again"

[DonMoody]

Most pre-19th century (pre-20th century really) armies foraged for their needs - especially in populated areas that were "agriculturally rich".

Generally, this was very feasible in many areas but not in all areas.
For example, Napoleon's army's operation techniques included a large reliance on foraging, particularly when doing forced marches (i.e. moving faster than the enemy expected but also faster than ones own supply trains could move).
These operation techniques worked very well in western and central Europe (just ask Austria & Prussia of the time) but caused problems when Napoleon invaded Russia (the army couldn't forage enough to feed all of its men, which resulted in the forces at the front of the army getting what was found and those behind the front line often starving because there wasn't enough left for them).

The benefits of being able to forage off the land were various.
Here are some:
1) Kept the soldiers fed, which is very important (don't feed your soldiers and they will leave - or worse).
2) By being able to 'gather supplies' along the way, forces did not have to carry as much and could travel faster and farther with less effort.
3) Reduced the concentration of soldiers (the forces had to spread out to sufficiently/effectively forage for their needs). Before the last century, most armies lost more forces to non-combat related issues (e.g. dysentery, influenza, desertion, ...) than they did to combat. Having your forces spread out radically improved some parts of this aspect (e.g. having a force five times as large means sanitary issues are *much* more than five times as difficult).

I could easily see the Empire sending a force over the mountains, have it spend one campaign season consolidating a base (e.g. building a 'frontier fort' like structure, possibly with magical help, and gathering sufficient supplies to feed the force through the winter), then begin the campaign in earnest in the second and subsequent campaign seasons.

Once the base is established, they can send additional forces at the start of every campaign season, make advances, consolidate gains and prepare for then winter until the next campaign season (when they do it all over again).
So I think it would be reasonably feasible for the Rhakhaan Empire to conquer much of Tanara without *any* ships being used for that effort.

That said, attacking from two directions (over the pass as detailed above plus naval incursions at vital points along the coast) would be a better choice - but certainly not required.

DonMoody

[egdcltd]

Britain's focus was much more sea based than land based, as, once the British Isles were under central control, any other expansion/trade had to be via the sea. Rhakhaan has/had a much greater potential land area to conquer/trade with first.

[Elrik]

I have to agree with Don on this one. Hard trained troops are a treasure to come buy, and I think Rhakhaan has a whole lot of them. They would have troops who have faced monsters, built forts in harsh environments and able to 'harvest' the population. In reality the locals trade one lord for another. Perhaps the soldiers bring with them the Laws of Rhakhaan and perhaps the locals get treated better. I doubt it, but one can hope.

Training resourceful troops is not a modern thing.

All of my conversation is in the present of my game, TE 6059. Again, the ships are for my game.

[Walt]

I?m not doubting that the Empire has some good ressources. But like always I?m trying to ckeck the plausibility of things I read.
The Rhakhaan Empire has, according to Jaiman, 30000 soldiers available.
The forces of the Tanarians, ranging mostly between 2000 and 4000, are still the numbers used in the old supplement (copy & paste error), playing in ~2500 TE , and they would be probably a fair bit higher in 6000 TE.
First their is the move into the Western marches and the Taldaar Plains, and the conquer of Meluria. All this make sense, for sure the Taldaar plans and the possibility of coastal acess (by the way, I have to check who in Emer get?s annoyed by this move)
And scanning though the timeline of Tanara, at the end it happend to be a treaty between the Rhakhaan Empire and the Sulini and Duranaki. I couldn?t imagine such a race with such an overdeveloped ego like the Duranaki to bend the knee before the Empire. And for sure not out of such a fantastic location like the big forest of Durakan (or the Empire developed already the magical equivalent of Agent Orange)