Topic: MA - Duelist TP

[Pat]

Sorry Choc,

# TWC uses monk style attacks?

I tried to use the Monk attack ability as an analogy for Two Weapon combo but obviously it has just confused the issue. TWC doesn't use Monk attack styles, I just used this as a reference because both TWC and Monk multiple attacks have seperate attack rolls.

# if multiple attack rolls are used, are there multiple attack rolls neccessary for a elemental bolt with talent scope skill (targets) for elemental bolt (ie ice)?

Scope skill (Targets) p51 core book says "The targets must be different, and the same roll is used for both targets."

So only one attack roll is made in this case.

I'll show why TWC has 2 attack rolls and PW only has one. In the example below, the players OB is the same, they use small slashing weapons (PW has daggers, TWC has Hand axe and dagger) and (by a quirk of fate) all attacks end up as a 88 slash critical in the Abdomen.(Using ML table).

If only one attack roll is made for both styles the damage would be:
PW 34 hits (double damage), 4 stun (+1 for PW) and 3 bleed (+1 for PW).

TWC (dagger/hand axe) damage would be:
34 hits (17+17), 6 stun (3+3) and 4 bleed (2+2). Since the critical will always be the same (if using small slashing weapons as in the example) the effect will always be double damage.

Using one roll, a player would be mad to take PW over TWC since, as the above example shows, you will always sacrifice stun and bleed damage.

Also, with one roll, the styles as a game mechanic become very similar. PW just becomes TWCs poor cousin. If you have one roll for PW and two rolls for TWC, the styles become different and have their own sense of flavour.

[choc]

ok, monk issue fixed

You compare TWC with ambidexterity and PW w/o ambidexterity

First: there is some post (in the ole forums?) about PW with ambidexterity.

Second: weapon bonus (material or workmanship) are added both to PW OB, TCW handle them seperately. weapon focus (ie fighter 5-lvl bonus) concern PW, i'm not sure if it'll be applied to TWC.

Let's see (non ambidexterity an ML crit tables and same kinds of weapon) with a +5 and a +10 (offhand) weapon, rolled 48 slash critical in the abdomen (w/o weapon bonus or weapon focus) and weapon focus +20 to the PW main weapon, +20 to the TWC main weapon and +10/+10 to both TWC weapons:

PW
(83 slash)
32H 4S 2B -20M
(34H 4S 3B for an additional skill focus instead of ambidexterity - 10 dev pts left ...)

TWC main
(73 slash + 38 slash)
14H 2S 1B + 8H -5M = 22H 2S 1B -5M
(14H 2S 1B + 11H 1S -10M = 25H 3S 1B -15M with ambidexterity)

TWC both
(63 slash + 48 slash)
13H 2S 1B -15M + 9H 1S = 22H 3S -15M
(13H 2S 1B -15M + 13H 2S 1B -15M = 26H 4S 2B -30M with ambidexterity)

==============
As i can see PW deals more damage then even TWC with ambidexterity with the same TOTAL OB (and don't forget the development costs of this talent) with an additional skill focus on PW (cheaper than ambidexterity) PW damage raises more (and if the rroll was lower, the +10 are doing more - in my example it reaches damage cap)
TWC deals more maneuver malus in combination with ambidexterity.
TWC can be used to parry 2 attacks a bit easier (houserule ftw).
TWC OB can be raised higher than PW at same lvl (except we use the skill focus then we break even at lvl 4 & 9 and a steady race to a higher TWC OB after lvl10).
I think THIS is the hughest advantage of TWC. The lack of the 2/3 rank penalty.

[Pat]

Wow...Do you and I have a different take on PW and TWC or what? 

You compare TWC with ambidexterity and PW w/o ambidexterity

First: there is some post (in the ole forums?) about PW with ambidexterity.

I admit I've never used PW as a combat style but I'd be shouting to blue heaven if a GM tried to apply an off-hand penalty for PW or required me to be ambidextrous to use the skill fully. My previous example did not apply off hand penalties for PW. (To be honest, the penalty did not even appear as a blip on my radar.)

Second: weapon bonus (material or workmanship) are added both to PW OB, TCW handle them seperately.

I didn't account for magical bonus or enhanced weapons in my example but OK.

weapon focus (ie fighter 5-lvl bonus) concern PW, i'm not sure if it'll be applied to TWC.
 

To me it's one in all in. If a GM applies the bonus to a combat style rather than an individual weapon then all combat bonuses would receive the style so TWC would get the +20 as well as the PW.

OK lets flesh out the example above. A 5th level fighter, max ranks in both styles and stat bonuses of (str +8, ag +8) using +15 weapons. (PW daggers, TWC hand axe and dagger.)

PW 18 ranks dagger (max) so PW is 12 ranks (12 x 1.5 =18 so max). OB = 54 (ranks) + 20 (fighter bonus) + 16 (stats) + 30 (weapon bonus) Total is 120.

TWC 18 ranks dagger, 18 ranks hand axe and 18 ranks TWC and ambidextrous. OB = 66 (ranks) + 20 (fighter bonus) + 16 (stats) + 15 (weapon bonus) Total is 117 for each attack.  The difference is minimal for OB in the example above.

Take this out to a lvl 19 fighter.

PW OB = 90 (40 ranks max PW) + 30 (fighter bonus) + 16 (stats) +50 (Weapons are now +25 daggers) Total = 186

TWC OB = 110 (60 ranks) + 30 (fighter bonus) + 16 (stats) + 25 (Weapon bonus as above) Total = 181

In my opinion, the designers of both styles didn't want large differences in OB. What they were after was two styles that had different playability. That's why the main difference is:

PW one attack roll and bonus damage.
TWC one attack roll for each attack and 2 criticals.

If you want to roll one attack roll for TWC (or two rolls for PW) go for it, it's your game. Personally, I think it goes against the combat style design and penalises both styles but that's my decision for my game.

Nice talking to you 

[choc]

Thread hijacking

There is no penalty for PW w/o ambidexterity, prolly an advantage with ambidexterity - it's up to the GM (enhance the PW boni?).

Weapon focus (fighter) applied to a weopon group rather than to the combat style (as monks get) - most fighter combat styles concern the primary weapon, TWC can use focus seperately for TWC weapons or half it and apply it to both.

TWC is a more expensive style than PW. TWC can obtain higher OB because of many more ranks  in higher lvls. (Never ever tested PW with two weapons which apply ie an ice and a fire additional critical )

It'll be intresting to check (your example stats) on the 3 other combat critical tables (H&S, std, HB11) - i'll do this - table coming soon.


Nice to argue with you too pat

[choc]

Ok, got the table:

Same stats as you state, lvl 5 + lvl 19. Same weapons. Foes at lvl 5 + lvl 19, fighters, maxed out weapon ranks + weapon focus (single weapon 1-H), +25 shield, +10 weapons, parry 50% of their OB, chain armor(40DB), attack roll 55 (average):

[tabular type=1]
[row][head rowspan=1]lvl 5 vs lvl 5[/head] [head colspan=1]PW - 60 DP[/head] [head colspan=1]TWC - 108DP[/head] [head colspan=1]TWC with ambidexterity - 128DP[/head][/row]
[row][data]

ML abdomen

[/data] [data]

26H 3S 2B -15M

[/data] [data]

19H 1S -15M

[/data] [data]

22H 2S -20M

[/data] [/row]
[row][data]

Hack & Slash

[/data] [data]

32H 3S -15M

[/data] [data]

22H 1S -10M

[/data] [data]

30H 2S -20M

[/data] [/row]
[row][data]

Core Book

[/data] [data]

36H 2S -10M

[/data] [data]

28H

[/data] [data]

32H

[/data][/row]
[/tabular]

Next lvl 19, same as above but with power strike

[tabular type=1]
[row][head rowspan=1]lvl 19 vs lvl 19 - power strike[/head] [head colspan=1]PW - 200 DP[/head] [head colspan=1]TWC - 360DP[/head] [head colspan=1]TWC with ambidexterity - 380DP[/head][/row]
[row][data]

ML abdomen

[/data] [data]

38H 5S 3B -25M

[/data] [data]

30H 5S 3B -15M

[/data] [data]

34H 6S 4B

[/data] [/row]
[row][data]

Hack & Slash

[/data] [data]

70H 6S 6B -45M

[/data] [data]

58H 7S 6B -70M

[/data] [data]

66H 8S 8B -80M

[/data] [/row]
[row][data]

Core Book

[/data] [data]

54H 4S 3B

[/data] [data]

43H 3S 1B -30M

[/data] [data]

50H 4S 2B -40M

[/data][/row]
[/tabular]

As we can see, PW lacks of maneuver penalty, but higher initial bleeding (TWC bleeding are two wounds - easier to heal). TWC is lot more expensive to learn (DP).

[munchy]

Never would have thought that ML was not that dangerous but that's probably the armour adjustment with chain armour that's kicking in here. Isn't that a bit to the disadvantage of the core rules? Shouldn't the armour be rigid leather as that is the one that is not influenced by the armour adjustment rules from ML?

[choc]

oops, i've forgotten armor adjustment .... :S

it is -5 hits, -1 bleed, +5 man. penalty (ie a -15M becomes -10M)

(i've used power strike rules for h&s => -20OB +10crit +1 dmgcap)

(i always play with H&S - thus i forgot to calculate -10 on crit on ML and core book - bit less dmg then for lvl5)

[GMLovlie]

This went a bit over board, but then again, all this is useful information. Thanks