Topic: Demons in Rolemaster

[Mkhaiwati]

I have read the term 'beyond the pale' before.  It is a little archaic but in general it means beyond normal behavior or normal understanding.  Farther out of the pales, esoteric markings kind of, the nastier you get.

For circles of hell I don't think it was just Dante's invention but rather interpretation as having different levels of heaven or hell is not solely a Christian ideal.  Judaism has different levels of Heaven for example.

It seems I recall at one point that the area around Dublin in Ireland was known as the Pale. Sometime in the Middle Ages, around the time of Henry II.

Yep, on Wikipedia, the Pale existed around Dublin after the first wave of English warriors came. Beyond the Pale was beyond the area of crown rule.

[pastaav]

My thought is that RM has both demons and "demonic critters". In many situations it makes sense that a demon lord send out his minions in large numbers. Problem is just that if every of the demons are enough demon to be a deadly opponent for the PCs an army of them will be defeat everything.

[mocking bird]

And another favorite aspect of demons
Player reading crit "+12 hits, 2 rounds of nothing and 3 never minds a round"

[buddha]

And another favorite aspect of demons
Player reading crit "+12 hits, 2 rounds of nothing and 3 never minds a round"

While demons might be immune to stun, I'd like to quote Conan here, "If it bleeds, it can die!"

But on the other hand demon blood might be quite poisonous or corrosive or dangerous in another way, so one might not want it to bleed to much.

[jasonbrisbane]

Hi buddha,

IMO the HARP core demons are supposed to be 'designed' by the GM:
If you want to create low level demons then you could give them Reverberating Strength. (equivalent to of the pale 2, the ape demons?)
If you want Balrog type demons then you do Soul Burn and Demon Fear.

Personally, I like to attach it to something (like a flavour text effect) i.e. the Balrog roars and you quiver - make a Demon fear RR.
I love the RM Demons and have used them in HARP (as my own conversions). But as said by others, the HARP talents are overpowered -  the equivalent of giving an RM demon all the abilities of every demon - your supposed to create your own demon - the stats for a "type I" thru "type V" are given in the Harp Core Rules and the talents, etc, for each demon need to be separated.

Personally, one game I'd like to play in is a Cyradon game against Demons in the old Colosseum using RM rules!
Then the same game in HARP rules. Id like to see which one is messier... I think I'd find it was an even event, just with the blood splattering in different patterns (LOL )!

[Skaran]

Possibly you could use a variation of the Spirit Binding and Spirit Runes rules used by the Magus as a guide for binding Demons into items.

[Fornitus]

 That might work. Otherwise its going to be demon lvl x 5.

[Skaran]

Then there are the chaos lords armour and weapons lists which actually are demons.
Would banishment or control demon spells work on the chaos lords chaos armour?

[Marc R]

If I recall, there was a shamanic alchemist in the AC, you could mod those abilities to bind a demon in. . . .

[munchy]

Then there are the chaos lords armour and weapons lists which actually are demons.
Would banishment or control demon spells work on the chaos lords chaos armour?

If I remember correctly they do work on the Chaos Lord's armour. That's basically the risk factor after you managed to survive putting the armour "on".

[buddha]

Then there are the chaos lords armour and weapons lists which actually are demons.
Would banishment or control demon spells work on the chaos lords chaos armour?

I just had a quick look in RMCIII and nowhere is it mentioned that you can banish a chaotic armor. But then again it is a demon and you need to cast summon and control spells on it so it should be possible.

[Fornitus]

 Caos Armour will be available, but nothing specifies the lvl or requirements for binding the demon to an item like a ring. Still thinking and looking.

[yammahoper]

You want to look at the Shaman base list.  Shamans have spells for binding spirits into objects.  Should be easy to extrapolate from there.

Also, if objects to contain demons were made as the focus of the summoning, and properly prepared (like, made with special materials, or cavered in proper runes, or bathed in the blood of a virgin hill billy elf, which are not easy to find past the age of 13...sorry, I digress), or some simular set up that a GM would be willing to approve, then part of the ritual would be casting master demon spell on the demon/object, which would then have to be made "constant" or the active master spell could be dispelled or dismissed/cancelled...perfect for a mage who doesnt want the users of the demon bound gear to survive, bwah hahahahahahaha.

lynn

[Marc R]

Yeah, the Shaman in RoCo2 or the Shamanic Alchemist in the Alchemy Companion. . .

A lot of spells or effects in rolemaster specify by type, but are particular, but you can generalize from there.

i.e. Spirits, Elementals, Undead, Demons in types I to VI. . . .

Any spell that affects one can be used as the template for one that affects another, so the spirit binding shaman spells can be used to bind demons to objects. . .have fun with the Will checks.

[Fornitus]

 Already started setting up background with Spirits, Elementals, and Demons as just different types of summoned entitys. So, yes the crossover for controll will be possible with a neg if not specificaly for that type of creature.
 Means her Arcaine Demonologist (costs as Archmage) will kinda be like a Conjurer except no calling of natural animals. (Always buged me, call a Demon or a furry bunny- same list)

 Did I mention the negative 100 to cast ANY magic in this world?
On top of anything else?
Stops 2nd lvl casters from trying to insta a 2x shock bolt with all their PP involved in a single cast.

 Works great in Chip the Soul-Swapper world. (except I am the PC there....)
Makes LVL bonuses actualy matter.

[markc]

Fornitus,
 I think you just hit the nail on the head. Deamons, Devils, Spirits, Elementals etc; generally are very tied up in the campaign setting so the details tend to be very varable. And these varables can make or break a setting. It would be nice to have a frame work to work with but thier are a lot of options IMO that apply to each monster race.

MDC

[Fornitus]

 Ah-ha!! Found it, knew it was somewhere.......

 Demon Imbeding and Spirit Imbeding are in the Alchemy Comp.

Now just need to intragrate the resulting "attributes" for the items with the chart for Demon (Chaos) Armour in comp 3, and.....     POOF!!!!!

 Now each spirit/elemental/demon has specific attributes or penalitys for the items they may be bound into!!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!

[jasonbrisbane]

RM demons also have the "Pales" and "Beyond the Pale" designations. HARP demons, on the other hand, are not organized in that manner at all.

This doesn't mean that we couldn't create and play with them though... 

[PiXeL01]

About fear: in a group I play our GM have us making fear checks everytime we see one. This makes us resilient after a while, but the first checks usually ends with everyone running for the hills. It is the same with Undead and class doesnt matter against either.

My personal beef with Demons is there simply isnt enough variables of them in the books. In a campaign I plan on starting I have been thinking about creating the ones from Heroes of Might and Magic V as sort of a demon hybrid between the planes of Fire and somewhere else. I havent got all the information sorted in my head, but they should at least act as something that would set the old MageEmperor a part from all the other mage lords of our realms. Of course it might end in failure anyway.