Topic: n00b questions about elemental attack spells

[willowisp]

I'm having some trouble figuring out how elemental attack spells work. Could someone "check my math" and make sure I'm doing it right? As an example, I have a 2nd-level mage who's firing a scaled-up Elemental Bolt: Air (increase attack size by 1) at a kobold. Her total spell bonus is 62 and the kobold's DB is 60. So, following the steps on p. 83 (combat overview), we have this:

1. Mage makes an attack roll of 53. Subtract the casting penalty for scaling up the spell (an additional 2PP = -10). 53-10=43.

2. 43 is not a fumble, so the spell was successfully cast.*

3. Add the mage's OB to the original roll (53+62=115).

4. Subtract the kobold's DB (115-60=55).

5. Modify the total attack roll by the size modifier (a small  critical); 55-10=45.

6. Look up 45 on the on the proper critical table. For an electricity critical, the outcome would be "Jolt to the heart. Foe takes 16 hits and is stunned 2 rounds."

Is this right?

What I find so confusing is the statement that "The caster's roll to successfully cast the spell and his attack roll are one and the same" (p. 107). It's true you use the same number twice (53 in this example), but there are two different "rolls" that need to be calculated. If I'm understanding it correctly, the casting penalty is applied only to the first roll (to successfully cast the spell), but not to the attack roll.

* What is the fumble range for an elemental attack spell? Unlike for weapons, there aren't any fumble ranges listed in the elemental critical tables. The footnote in the maneuver table on p. 66 says that 01-05 is the fumble range "for everything except weapon use." So is the fumble range for elemental attack spells 01-05 as well? (And if so, why is 01-10 listed in the main part of the table?)

Thanks for your help! 

[WoeRie]

You missed a little thing in your math. Because you scaled the Bolt from 4PP to 6PP, you have to increase the casting time of your spell to 2 rounds, or what is more realistic because you are in a stress (combat) situation, you have to subtract an additional -10 from the total, befor checking if you hit. So it should be:

1. Mage makes an attack roll of 53. Subtract the casting penalty for scaling up the spell (an additional 2PP = -10) and subtract the penalty for speed casting. 53-10-10=33.

[kasalin]

I think your math should look like:

Roll = 53
Plus: +62 (OB)
Minus: 10 (scaling), 10 (quick cast), 60 (DB), Crit size (10)


So you should have: 53 + 62 - 10 - 10 - 60 - 10 = 25

[Aaron]

Hi!

Fumbles are checked from unmodified roll, in your case 53 (not fumble), if i'm correct.

First the mage has to "roll to succesfully cast the spell". From that i'm not so sure, but i think it's all-or-nothing manouver using the spell as bonus. So roll+ skill/OB - casting penalties for shortened casting and scaling have to equal 100 or more. So in this case its 53+62-10 (-10 if mage hurried the casting) , which is 95 or 105. So if the mage was trying to cast the spell in one rounds, he/she failed the spell and no attack is made, as there was no elemental bolt.

If the mage succesfully cast the spell, then attack is resolwed just as normal weapon attack:

Total roll is original roll + OB - casting penalty for scaling - DB (- 10 for shortened casting if applicable). That makes 45, or 35, which is more than 1, so the attack hits.

THEN you subtract 10 for small critical, to 35 or 25, and check the critical table. Everything is resolved just as weapon attack.

[Aaron]

Short version:

1. Make all-or-nothing-manouver with spell as bonus, use all casting penalties. If succeeded, continue. (Remember to check fumbles too)

2. Subtract the BD of defender. It Total is 1 or more, the attac hit. Continue.

3. Modify the roll with the critical size modifier, and look at the table.

[willowisp]

Thanks for the replies! I hadn't considered the casting time, so thanks for pointing that out.

It sounds like kasalin and Aaron are using slightly different calculations, specifically with regard to the critical size modifier and when it gets factored in.

Also, I have looked at Table 9.1 on page 66, but I don't understand what the difference is between the 01-10 and 01-05 fumble ranges. When is 01-05 a fumble and when is 01-10 a fumble?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Spells fumble on a roll of 01-05 (see the note on the table on page 66).


1. Mage makes an attack roll of 53 (not between 01-05, so not a fumble). Subtract the casting penalty for scaling up the spell (an additional 2PP = -10). 53-10=43.  43 is the total roll.

(Note: spell takes 2 rounds to cast, unless you also take another -10 modifier -- not really important to the discussion, but something to keep in mind as it must be decided BEFORE casting roll is made, not after)

2. Add the mage's OB to the original roll (43+62=105).

3. Subtract the kobold's DB (105-60=45). 55 is greater than 1, so the attach succeeded and hit the target. Go to the next step to determine damage done.

4. Modify the total attack roll by the size modifier (a small  critical); 45-10=35.

5. Look up 35 on the on the proper critical table. For an electricity critical, the outcome would be "Blast leaves foe's sleeves smoldering. Foe takes 14 Hits, is stunned 1 round, and is at -10."


In short, the modifiers affect how powerful the attack is, and thus are added into the roll for determining whether you hit and/or how much damage you do. When you scale up, you raise the potential amount of damage you can do, but the spell is also less controllable, and therefore it is harder to hit a foe with it as well.

[wargamer66]

Why would I ever scale up the damage then?  If I leave it as a tiny critical, the roll is 53.... +62 OB, -60 for goblin DB, and then another -20 for a tiny critical.  Same answer, damage is 35.  By scaling up the spell to small damage, I only expended an extra 2 PPs and made the cast time longer, for no additional result.

Am I missing something here?

[wargamer66]

Scaling damage up increases the damage cap?  Is that the answer to my own question? 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Scaling damage up increases the damage cap?  Is that the answer to my own question? 

Yes. Scaling up increases the damage cap, allowing you the potential to do greater amounts of damage overall. It doesn't guarantee that you will do more damage, and that is where some folks tend to get stuck. 

Just remember though, to use those higher scalings, you also have to have a higher skill rank, and thus higher skill bonus as well (and you can always hope for better rolls also hehe).

[willowisp]

Scaling up increases the damage cap, allowing you the potential to do greater amounts of damage overall. It doesn't guarantee that you will do more damage, and that is where some folks tend to get stuck.

Yes, that's precisely where we got stuck.    Hence my mangling of the rules. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Aaron]

Hmm... Is it really so, that if the mage doesn't fumble, he always succeds in casting it, just doesn't hit anything with it? Pretty weird IMHO. Are elemental spell so easy to cast? That and statement "The caster's roll to successfully cast the spell and his attack roll are one and the same" (p. 107) are why i thought caster should succeed in all-or-nothing first, before even resolving attack, as if mage fails to cast elemental bolt, there is no attack, is there?

Or is it balance issue?

[WoeRie]

You should consider the defensive bonus of the opponent. If the target has high defenses (e.g. armor, shield, scales, of if he is very fast/agile) it will get pretty hard to penetrate it. Let's use your example, but don't use a Kobold as an opponent but a Sabretooth Tiger:

1. Mage makes an attack roll of 53 (not between 01-05, so not a fumble). Subtract the casting penalty for scaling up the spell (an additional 2PP = -10) and -10 for quick casting within one round. 53-10-10=33.  33 is the total roll.

2. Add the mage's OB to the original roll (33+62=95).

3. Subtract the Sabretooth Tiger's DB (95-110=-15). A miss.

This is a very hard opponent for your Mage, normally you nearly always hit in HARP (even with weapons), it is much more important to do a high amount of damage (and stun) to down or at least disable the opponent.
For elemental attack spells you should also consider to use cover to protect against them, they function basically identical to missile weapons and do approximately the same amount of damage.

[Aaron]

I realize that spells are resolved just as normal attacks (check my previous post in this topic) but i still think mages should succes an all-or-nothing before resolving attack. And's it's no extra math, just check if total is more than 100 before subtracting defenders DB.

It may make mages less powerfull, but i still think i still demand mages to succes the manouver... It helps to make magic more mystical IMO. And then spellcasters might lean towards the less flashy spells... Not fireworks, but mystic.

[choc]

# Utility spells have a test roll of 71
# Attack spells have a test roll vs WW
# Elemental attack spells have a test roll vs DB

rolls beyond 05 are fumbles -> absolutely no success (and in case of the following roll is open ended it's a fatality for the involved mage) 

[jasonbrisbane]

HI,

Just as FYI:

if the attack ruins the targets shield (A Crush crit does this I think) or a armour (one of the  fire attack crits?) then you need to reduce the Goblins DB appropriately. Thus his DB will come down and the results on the attack will be greater.

Plus if you roll open ended 120 (+62-60) for a total of 122, then you really would have wished you had scaled up the spell to Huge to do the extra damage. if you leave it as small, he gets stung but is still kicking. THATS why you scale up!

Hope you like and stay with HARP!