Topic: Aiming?

[jurasketu]

Let me add a few thoughts...

In real life, to shoot at anything effectively beyond point blank range with any missile weapon inherently requires a LOT of aiming. When using bows in a military battlefield setting, the "target" is a large block of solders so its just shoot at the "crowd" rather than an individual which makes aiming a lot simpler and typically the shooter adjusts for wind and distance with each shot (kind of like using tracers). So HARP (and most RPG games) distort fire rates for missile weapons since its based on load and fire in a battlefield setting. In HARP, since rounds are only two seconds, aiming at a "new" or moving target SHOULD require "aiming" for one extra round per Range Increment (RI) beyond 2 - just to qualify for shooting at the target. Getting a target in your initial sights at a distance is not so easy. Correcting for wind and distance can take a number of seconds to "gauge". At any distance beyond point blank range, a called shot is essentially impossible. Ask a bow hunter at what range they like to take their shots - its generally under 25 meters.

The Careful Aim action introduced by Nicholas seems reasonable - although I'm not sure I would allow reducing the RI 8 penalty completely just because you aimed for 40 rounds... I think only allowing the penalty to be reduced by no more than half for all RI seems more reasonable.

With firearms, stabilizing the weapon by "bracing" or using a shooting tripod makes a huge difference. High quality gunsights (scopes) make an additional huge difference. Beta Blockers help as well (a heart medicine that reduces jitters and of course banned in competition shooting). Bracing and scopes allow BOTH faster and better aiming - so it should take less long with a scope to achieve "best possible aim".

Attempting to do less than lethal damage is already allowed in Base HARP with the Subdual action:

Subdual: At times, characters may wish to strike a foe
without utilizing their entire force for the blow, in an effort
to disable or subdue a target. This action receives a -20
modifier to the attack roll. Should the attack still result in
severe damaging effects, the character may adjust the result
to any other lesser critical on the same table at their leisure.

Another important point is this. IF the target is AWARE of the shooter, aiming might be more difficult because the target will use movement and cover to spoil the aim by turning their body, keeping their head and chest behind the shield, etc.

Let me illustrate an example...

I played semi-pro Paintball for 9+ years (I was a star player on a team that competed in the national tournaments), my paintgun including the scope and all the trimmings cost me a frightening sum close to $500. You can spend twice that or more. A cheap paintgun in the hands of an expert can hit a head sized target 9/10 times from about 10 meters. A high quality gun can thwack someone's head 4/5 times from about 20 meters. A cheap gun would be lucky to hit the target 1/10 times at 20 meters. So quality can make a huge difference in the effective range. I used a shorter barrel than most sacrificing long range accuracy for "maneuverability" in the bushes... The "sniper" setups in the hands of an expert could thwack people at ranges of 40 meters or more. Of course, in the woods its difficult to actually SEE anyone at 20 meters [those darn paintballs hurt - so players take pains not to be seen]. In effect, paintguns are about as accurate as a bow but much less effective at longer ranges - paintballs bounce instead of break once they lose velocity.

Anyway, at close range you can literally twist your body to avoid being shot by watching the other player's aim and trigger pull. More than a few times, I've blundered into an ambush, dodged the "aimed" shot and returned fire (commonly called "snap shooting") and marked (hit) the ambushers without being marked myself to the ambushers' everlasting annoyance. Before I played Paintball - I would have said you couldn't do that. But you can. It's a skill I and others practiced. Remaining calm and cool under that pressure is critical as well. Most players cannot. When moving under missile fire, serpentining and "juking/jiving" is also critical to spoiling the aim of enemy fire - unseen or no. It really makes a difference.

[janpmueller]

at close range you can literally twist your body to avoid being shot

You dodge bullets? That is cool... 
Would that be DB in Harp, or do we need another combat style for this (as you say it's a trained thing)?

Jan

[jurasketu]

LOL-

You know. I've always thought there should be a "missile weapon defense" skill which would give a bonus of some kind against missile attacks - known and unknown. A skilled person has a definite advantage in utilizing even minimal cover, playing the angles and "dodging bullets". The unskilled despite having 100% cover available will often leave something vulnerable sticking out and always run "straight" making them easy targets. I should cook up a skill and subject my gaming group to a playtest...

Let's see... You wouldn't want it to be a straight skill bonus equals DB (too generous and not really realistic). Hmm....

Robin

[Fidoric]

I think that practice must be related to Zen archery. I know little about this but it seems strange to me. Keeping a bow drawn for several minutes is quite a physical feat, definitively beyond the ability of the average man. However, that kind of skill requiring both intense concentration is hardly usable on a battlefield. I can't see how to transcribe this in gaming terms. Modern days archers do not aim for so long. Even a world class archer do not aim for more than a few seconds before releasing the tension. Then again, their performance would not be so high in a tense environment of if their lives were depending on their shot. A PC in a game is in a position more akin to those practicing the nordic biathlon (ski and shooting). Those shoot under stress and even the best ones sometimes miss their target.
IMHO, I would suggest a +5 bonus for each round of aiming limited to six rounds. As OB reflects the ability to deliver precise shots, it must already include some measure of aiming. Another solution illustrating the difficulty of aiming right could be to have the player roll a OB roll with a +5 bonus per round of concentration on the bonus column. The result could be apply to a second roll, the actual shot. Perhaps you could consider using strength and self-discipline as the two stats involved in shooting a bow.

[janpmueller]

You know. I've always thought there should be a "missile weapon defense" skill which would give a bonus of some kind against missile attacks - known and unknown.

Can you, by the HARP rules, dodge or sudden-dodge a missile attack? I see nothing speaking against it, but I also see nothing speaking against parrying a missile attack with full OB, which seems funny... what's the current ruling for this?

Anyway: If yes, you can dodge/sudden-dodge missile attacks, I'd say these maneuvers cover it, and you can even train Acrobatics to get better with it (or invent a subskill Acrobatics: "Be like Neo"  ).

If it's not covered by the rules as they are (I GM a campaign right now, but I really wouldn't know how I would play this), I see two ways:
(a) Just allow Dodge (known missile attack) and Sudden-Dodge (unknown) to all characters. Whoever trains their Acrobatics skill will profit from this.
(b) Make "Bullet-Dodging" a talent (15 DP?), allowing the Dodge and Sudden-Dodge actions versus missile attacks, with a special bonus of +10.

Any good?

[jurasketu]

You know, Jan, I think you're right. The Parry says "melee attack" while Dodge says "one attack". Which implies any attack including elemental attacks. And doing a search seems to back that up... Funny how I didn't realize that after playing for many months now. Probably my many previous years of RM where you couldn't do that... Let's see if I can find the best reference. Here from Rasyr:

One thing that the old RM also did not have was Dodge and Sudden Dodge, which are Combat Actions that may also be applied to missile and directed spell attacks.

In general, COVER is better than dodging. But I'm guessing Dodging would have some effectiveness given the ability to use Acrobatics.

There IS a missle parry combat action in Martial Law - but that's not what I mean - that's just using a weapon as a shield - which is reasonable and "cool".

But I still think "using cover" is a separate skill and so I'll give it some thought and try some experiments.

Robin

[Fidoric]

I agree with you. I think hiding behind a wall is the best way to deal with missiles. However, while doing so,you're pinned down. Dodging gives the possibility to boost your defense and keep on moving, but it comes at a risk. That's exactly the way it is with modern firearms. The slower rate of fire of bows (compared to automatic rifles) allows you to move between the missiles at no risk. If the ennemy fires every other round, you can also give up your cover for so long.

[janpmueller]

Ah, thanks for pointing out the "parry is only for melee" thing. So dodging works by the rules, that's great.

@ jurasketu
What do you mean by "using cover"? Page 86 in the rulebook gives a table with four different types of cover (Half Soft Cover, Full Soft Cover, Half Hard Cover, Full Hard Cover) giving DB bonuses.
Or do you mean using cover while walking, jumping, etc. through any foliage.

If yes, you mean the latter, I'm waiting for your experiments - there are several ways to make that a skill... I believe I'd make it a contest of skills between archer and "cover-user". The cover-user rolls the skill, and the archer must beat the bonus column or suffer a penalty. Something like that.
Whoof, I'm tired... It's midnight over here. Good night, and good luck experimenting!

Jan

[jurasketu]

That's partly what I meant. A skilled user of cover should be able to play the angles to get a better bonus from the available cover compared to an unskilled user.

[Fidoric]

It may be only that foliage and the likes provides you with bonuses to dodging maneuvers, thus making you harder to hit. I can't see the need to have a specific skill to get cover... It's more a reaction than a trained skill for me, maybe a Quickness or Agility maneuver versus the attack, which IMO is rather close to a dodge...

[jurasketu]

I have to respectfully disagree...

Using cover actually requires significant training and experience. The inexperienced will THINK their taking cover when literally their behind is hanging out or worse and they'll get picked off. And the skilled can turn 25% cover into 50% or even 75% by taking the right "angle" and positioning the body just so. Trust me on this one - I spent years taking cover from literally 100,000s of paintballs [that's not an exaggeration] and I've fired 100,000s of paintballs at folks behind cover. The inexperienced players were always easy prey because they didn't know how to use the available cover.

Now, its perfectly well to argue its too much trouble and adventurers should have enough experience to take full advantage of available cover. But I'm just saying a cover skill to get full bonus and with higher cover skill gain a better bonus might be something to playtest. So I'm gonna experiment.

[Fidoric]

You are right, maybe practice may help... Exactly what your average PC will not have... You have learnt how to use cover through intensive practice. Try that with arrows (even blunt). Your situation is IMO not possible in most fantasy environments.

[jurasketu]

I was making the point I had a lot of experience witnessing good and bad use of cover. It doesn't take THAT much experience and it is a skill that can be readily taught. I used to teach the finer points to my friends and most benefited quite a bit. Simple stuff like how to tuck in properly against a tree or rock. How to keep the behind and legs from splaying out and into the firing lanes. How to judge firing lanes. Et cetera. So, I think its a skill that can be taught and learned. Acrobatics turns Dodge into a skill. It seems like an analogous situation.

Robin