Topic: Bonus item prices & availability

[Ecthelion]

Hi,

we are going to have our first HARP session this weekend and there are some things I stumbled upon during the preparations:
Martial Law contains rules for generating prices for non-magic and magic weapons and armor. In comparison to RM these prices seem to differ quite much, so that I am unsure if I got it right. E.g. a White Alloy (+15) weapon forged by a master craftsman (+10) seems to have a price multiplier of x20 + x10 = x30, so that a +25 broadsword (base price of 1 gp) created this way would cost "only" 30 gp. Is that correct?

In contrast magical items seem to be extremely expensive. While a White Alloy Chain Mail forged by a Master smith, granting a DB bonus of +70, costs "only" 180 gp, a Dwarven Steel Chain Mail, granting "only" +65 to DB, costs a whopping 180,000 gp. And the only advantage this armor has seems to be a bit less training required to wear it, a lower casting penalty plus some small modifiers to RRs and elemental attacks. Did I miss something? For that price a character could as well equip a whole army with White Alloy Chain Mails...

Also are there any rules on determining the availability of bonus items? So how can I determine whether the PCs, after their first successful adventure, having perhaps 50 gp in their pockets, will find a merchant that has a +25 broadsword mentioned above available - not even to speak of a merchant that could sell them a Dwarven Steel Chain Mail, should they have the necessary "loose cash"? And what kind of items are the PCs allowed to purchase as starting equipment? E.g. a PC could want to buy a Superior Improved set of Soft Leather Armor for 10 gp from his 11-20 gp of starting money. Can we simply allow this as he has the money for it? And if it is allowed, what about a +25 dagger, costing only 9 gp? It seems relatively easy to buy non-magical equipment with at least a small bonus even with the starting money.

Thanks in advance

[Ecthelion]

Any help on the questions above? Are you using the ML rules for magic and non-magical bonus items prices?

[Right Wing Wacko]

I am waiting with you...

[munchy]

Not using this so far. Have mostly been using the old system, a mixture or RM2/C and HARP core rules.

The HARP prices in general seemed to be somewhat broken in our opinion. This has probably to do with HARP not using the full spectrum of currencies like RM. The only have gold, silver and copper which makes the system a bit more simple than RM. 30 gp for a +25 weapon seems too cheap IMHO.
As I said, we use the RM system because that's what we are used to and what we like. Flexibility as known from RM. :-) However, this is our only real criticism with HARP.

Can't really answer on the rest stuff.

The underlying idea about non-magic stuff being relatively cheap is probably that it is also not that usefull, although that would depend on the encounters you have in your game. Non-magic weapons would be quite usefull and rather powerful in my game as they don't encounter a lot of non-magic resistant enemies, but mostly human adversaries.

Am a bit amazed that neither Tim nor Nick or someone else of the rather active HARP community have answered here.

Am aware and sorry that my post is probably not really helpful!

[Ecthelion]

Thanks for the information, munchy. Indeed I also thought about using the RM rules for item prices. OTOH I'd really like to give the HARP rules a chance and not start with a bunch of modifications and house rules even in the first session.

[Right Wing Wacko]

I am waiting for Tims solution.

[jurasketu]

When I've confronted the problem, these questions came to mind.

First, can higher quality weapons/tools actually YIELD a skill bonus - and how large?

Second, how much more do higher quality weapons/tools really cost?

Third, should magical weapon bonuses exceed quality bonuses?

Fourth, depending on the answers to the first three questions - how do we want that to affect our game play?

Let me give my attempt at answers and let others take their shots...


Question #1: Can higher quality weapons/tools actually YIELD a skill bonus - and how large?

I think higher quality weapons/tools definitely yield a bonus above base skill. Certainly the "pros" think it does. They always buy and use the "best" equipment they can find and they will pay outrageous sums for the advantage. Balance, reliability, strength, weight and accuracy are all critical to success with a weapon or using a tool. The higher quality weapons/tools all tend to have these traits in abundance. My personal experience in construction, software engineering and paintball certainly convinces me.

I think no one would argue against +5 or +10 for quality bonus. I think its the +20/+25 that bother folks. It would seem so - but compare that as a percentage to any particular "skill roll". If you have "mediocre" skill say 8 ranks plus 10 stat bonus - that's just a 50. So a +25 seems like a huge bonus. But REALLY, the average roll is a 50 plus the skill of 50 for a total of 100. So that +25 increases the average roll by only 25%. With a weak skill bonus of 10, the average increase over the 60 is 42% which is large - but if anything innate weapon/tool reliability and accuracy are more important to the less skilled. For a master swordsman with a 120 total skill, that +25 is only an average increase of 15%. So my argument is that the +25 bonus isn't really that huge a bonus.

Custom made-to-fit gloves, clothes, boots and armor almost certainly work better and increase the effectiveness of the wearer's skills. The same applies to weapons made to fit a particular hand, stature, style and strength. Its gotta be beneficial in maintaining balance, control and confidence which are critical to success.

Question #2: How much more do higher quality weapons/tools really cost?

Most tools come in "crap", "average", "premium", "professional grade" and "custom fit super professional grade".

As best I can tell from experience and looking around, professional grade costs no more than 2 - 10 times more than average depending on the type. Custom fit, super high grade, clearly will cost a lot more.

Question #3: Should magical weapon bonuses exceed quality bonuses?

By the rules, the maximum quality bonus and maximum magic bonus seem to be capped at +25. I assume this is for arbitrary game balance and nothing more.

Question #4: So how does this matter in game play and campaign mechanics?

One easy thing to do is to rule that you can't get +20 or +25 without being CUSTOM FIT for the tool/weapon/armor. But otherwise, a multiplier of 10x, 20x, 30x for basic stuff isn't unrealistic or unbalanced. In terms of money, I think of 1 CP ~ $1, 1 SP ~ $10 and 1 GP ~ $100 in modern purchasing power. So instead of paying $100 for a generic broadsword, our adventurer decided to go for quality and bought the $3000 broadsword instead custom-fit for his/her fighting style and size. It doesn't seem unreasonable at all that it should yield about a 15-40% advantage over the crappy Wal-Mart version. And 30 GP seems like a large outlay for a beginning adventurer. What about a horse? Survival gear? Daily food and lodging?

So. I think in general - quality is NOT overpriced. And should be readily available. The professional adventurer is going to buy the better equipment. IF the adversaries are "pros" - they'll have better quality as well - so that should balance out. Thugs and goblins have to make do with "average" weapons? Let them eat cold white alloy steel.

Magic weapons/armor and items? By the rules (as found scattered across LOOT, COM, ML, etc), I think they are often WAY overpriced.

Let's examine the rules from COM:

"The spell casting cost is given by the following formula: Casting Cost = Total Imbue PPs x number of imprints to create x Complexity Multiplier. The total Imbue PPs refers to how many PPs are needed by each batch of required Imbue spells. The number of imprints refers to the total number of castings required to create the item. The Complexity Multiplier represents the inherent danger of spell-casting to the enchanter. If all Imbue spells re in their base form, the Multiplier is x1, if any have to be scaled, the multiplier increases to x5."

This works great UNTIL the last clause there. Without the complexity multiplier, magic items are seriously expensive but not too outrageous. So I've dropped the complexity multiplier in my campaign but otherwise use the rule as written.

Overall, the quality bonus is a better "deal" UNLESS you need to fight monsters like undead where magical weaponary is a substantial benefit. And I'm fine with that.

I think players should spend their "magic" budget money on REAL magic and not on "plain jane" weapon and armor bonuses.

Robin

[Ecthelion]

jurasketu, the above questions are all valid when creating rules for bonus items. My hope is that they were all considered when the rules in ML and Loot - A Field Guide were created, and I only wanted to know the reasoning behind some of the rules.

Currently my approach is that we are going to completely ignore the rules for bonus items from ML and only use the rules and prices from Loot - A Field Guide. We'll only have to find prices for the different levels of bonus items (I-V) as AFAIS only the price for level I items is listed. Perhaps we'll double the price for each category increment, so that a bonus item V is eight times as expensive as a bonus item I.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Availability -- Sorry, but no, I don't think that there are any rules regarding availability. That is something that is and should be dependent upon your setting and the details of it.

You should also adjust the price multipliers according to the availability of your setting as well. Magical materials should be much higher than non-magical materials (even if the bonuses from them are comparable or even less than non-magical counterparts).

The prices reflect its basic rarity, PLUS inherent power level, and encompasses ALL of its abilities, not just its OB or DB mods.

If a material is more common in your setting, then lower the price multiplier. If it is more rare, then increase the price multiplier. As the GM, you are the one who has to make the final determination.

One other point, it seems that we are missing a note in that book. There is a note that mentions that magical materials basically are required to be Master crafted items, and thus those bonuses are already figured in. What we are missing is the note that says that the special non-magical materials are supposed to be of superior workmanship, and that those are already figured in as well. (i.e. you could raise a white alloy item from superior to master, and get 1 bonus increment, but that is all).

As for starting equipment - I would not recommend allowing equipment that has material bonuses (I might allow them to purchase items of superior workmanship, but nothing more than that).

For the most part, high end items are going to be required to be commissioned and paid for BEFORE the work is done. You should rarely, if ever, find such items for sale in a market place.

You want an item made of White Alloy? Then you have to find a smith who can work the material, and knows its secrets, and then get him to make you the item and wait while he makes it (several days at least, more if he does not have the material on hand). And magical materials should be even rarer....

[Ecthelion]

OK, thanks for the information.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Yeah..Thanks