Topic: Death in Hack&Slash

[WoeRie]

During our last gaming session a player asked me when she would die by concussion hits (she had huge bleedings). I answered after you reached your constitution stat (not bonus) as negative hit points. She never came to this limit (with a stat value of 90), however it was the first time in my 2.5 years of HARP that a person was NEAR that (first) limit. Because of this I double-checked the rule in Hack&Slash again and saw that some thinks still puzzle me:

1) After a character reached his negative constitution stat he still has another time his constitution stat +5 to live. Is this a typo and should read constitution bonus +5 at the second place?

2) What exactly does the Lifekeeping spell do? Is this spell only useful if no Minor or Major Healing is available? Else it would be no problem to cast ?Stop death in x rounds? or simply heal the concussion hits above 0. Or is it just a possibility to freeze the body that later Lifegiving don?t have to be scaled that high?

I'm pretty sure that at least the first question was already answered by Rasyr some time ago, but I was unable to find it. So sorry if these questions were not asked for the first time.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The problem lies in the way things were phrased. I have to read the Death section of the HARP core rules (which says the same thing as Hack & Slash), AND the Lifekeeping and Major Healing spells to remind myself of the intent here.

When a character's hits reach [Con stat below zero], the character is technically dead. However, his soul won't leave his body for a number of rounds equal to [Con stat + 5].

If the soul is still in the body, you can cast Lifekeeping on it. That changes the character from dead to temporary coma. And once brought above zero hits (and/or the crit that caused death is healed), the character will wake up. Lifekeeping can also be cast BEFORE the character reaches the death threshold. This means that the character won't do so for the duration (though it doesn't stop any further damage from bleeding or such either)

Major Healing won't work on a character without Lifekeeping being used first if the character is past that "death point" threshold. The "Stop death in xx rounds" scaling option only applies to damage from criticals that say "death in xx rounds", it won't stop a character's soul from leaving the body.

Lifegiving is for restoring a character whose soul has left the body.

Is this making any more sense?

[WoeRie]

Better, but still not 100% sure? 

The rounds until the soul leaves the body is Con Stat + 5 rounds, regardless how the body died. This means it doesn?t matter if the person died because of ?Instant Death?, ?Death in x rounds? or hit points?

After a character has reached his Con Stat in hit points a Livekeeping has to be cast before further Healing could bring the character back to health, afterwards only Lifegiving can help.

?Death in x rounds? can simply be healed by the ?Stop death in x rounds? scaling of the Healing spell as long as the x-rounds are not reached (no further healing necessary).

If the x rounds are reached without healing or after an ?Instant Death? result it would be still possible to heal the character with Lifekeeping (and then with an appropriate healing) as long as the Con Stat +5 rounds are NOT reached?

So, as a summary Lifekeeping will freeze the body in a state where it could be properly healed WITHOUT any Lifegiving, but it has to be cast within the Con Stat +5 time.

Puhhh? the rules are a bit unclear at this point.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Better, but still not 100% sure? 

The rounds until the soul leaves the body is Con Stat + 5 rounds, regardless how the body died. This means it doesn?t matter if the person died because of ?Instant Death?, ?Death in x rounds? or hit points?

Correct

After a character has reached his Con Stat in hit points a Livekeeping has to be cast before further Healing could bring the character back to health, afterwards only Lifegiving can help.

Yes, once he is at negative con stat in hits, he is technically dead, but there is that small window where Lifekeeping can put him into a kinda coma (stasis for the soul, so to speak).

Once that window is passed, he is dead and only lifegiving can revive him.

?Death in x rounds? can simply be healed by the ?Stop death in x rounds? scaling of the Healing spell as long as the x-rounds are not reached (no further healing necessary).

That scaling option only stops death in xx rounds that is caused by a critical. It does NOT heal that critical, it only heals enough to get rid of the "death in xx rounds" portion. All other damage from the critical remains.

If the x rounds are reached without healing or after an ?Instant Death? result it would be still possible to heal the character with Lifekeeping (and then with an appropriate healing) as long as the Con Stat +5 rounds are NOT reached?

If the x rounds pass without healing or with an instant death crit, using a Lifekeeping spell will give you extra time to come and heal this person, so long as Lifekeeping is cast within the proper amount of time.

So, as a summary Lifekeeping will freeze the body in a state where it could be properly healed WITHOUT any Lifegiving, but it has to be cast within the Con Stat +5 time.

Exactly... It is basically an "emergency stasis" spell. To allow you the time to properly heal the character.

[WoeRie]

Great, many thanks, after 2.5 years I finally understood this spell. 
I'm pretty sure this totally unused spell will start to be far more popular in future gaming sessions.

[black flag]

to me house rule for minor bleedings (no more than 1-3 hits:rnd): all the ten rnd, the bleedings are reduce by 1: if a character bleeds by 3h/rnd, after 10 rnd, he bleeds at 2h/rnd, 10 rnd after 1h/rnd, and 10 rnd after 0...
Why this is minor bleedings and don't forget the coagulation effects!
if You bleed from nose, you don't bleed to death (fortunately )

[WoeRie]

No, I don't think that bleeding 1 hit/round is comparable to nose bleeding. We are talking about a real wound, which is deadly if not treated. Nose bleeding and things like that would be handled by normal hits loss.
I think it is pretty simple to close bleeding with the Healing skill and bandages in HARP, have you ever tried to do this in real life?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Bleeding is always considered to be a serious wound and is something that can cause death over time. It is not limited to blood loss either, it includes any sort of continuing damage, such as broken bones raking your innards, frostbite, burns, etc...

A nosebleed might be 1 or 2 hits, but it would not be "Bleeding" of any sort.

[choc]

?Death in x rounds? can simply be healed by the ?Stop death in x rounds? scaling of the Healing spell as long as the x-rounds are not reached (no further healing necessary).

That scaling option only stops death in xx rounds that is caused by a critical. It does NOT heal that critical, it only heals enough to get rid of the "death in xx rounds" portion. All other damage from the critical remains.

Hum .....

Let's take a look at the slashtable:

V: Foe falls to the ground unconscious, to die after 7
helpless rounds as his blood spurts like a fountain.

W: Glory strike leaves chunks of foe lying on the ground. He dies after
5 helpless rounds.

Except the normal concussion hits loss V states "blood spurts like a fontain" - if death in xx rnds has been healed, what other damage remain? 1h/rnd? 10h/rnd? Nothing?
W states "lying on the ground" - if death in xx rnds has been healed, the delinquent just has to stand up again? Or am i barking up the wrong tree?

(Except 9 to 38 hits for V or 19 to 41 hits for W which must be healed seperately)

[jurasketu]

If Rasyr and WoeRie don't mind my interjection...

Well. By the Rules, magic healing is immediately effective. And so yeah. The guy should be able to pop right back up. It IS magic after all.

In my game, however, if a character/monster/animal goes "down" and was going to die or be at least temporarily disabled without the magical healing, I rule that the character needs a period of recovery depending on the injury from a few hours to a day or even several days.

The effect being that if the character was able to carry on fighting, the injury wasn't that "bad" and so magical healing really ought to be able to restore them to perfect health.

But if the character was disabled or going to die - then even though the magical healing cured the injuries - the body needs a bit of time to recover from the shock. In theory, additional spell casting could negate the recovery time. But I like to make the characters need recovery time if they've nearly died. Adds a nice bit of complexity if the characters have to drag a recovering comrade around for a while.

[WoeRie]

Let's take a look at the slashtable:

V: Foe falls to the ground unconscious, to die after 7
helpless rounds as his blood spurts like a fountain.

W: Glory strike leaves chunks of foe lying on the ground. He dies after
5 helpless rounds.

Except the normal concussion hits loss V states "blood spurts like a fontain" - if death in xx rnds has been healed, what other damage remain? 1h/rnd? 10h/rnd? Nothing?
W states "lying on the ground" - if death in xx rnds has been healed, the delinquent just has to stand up again? Or am i barking up the wrong tree?

(Except 9 to 38 hits for V or 19 to 41 hits for W which must be healed seperately)

Point taken, but this is a general H&S problem. Have you ever found a broken bone or any other injury except of plain numbers.
So far I played that the "Death in x rounds" spell healed the critical (except of the hits) but I use my house rule that it takes at least 4 hours to heal, so it is not really an issue of magic but of time.
Maybe you could request the "Heal all damage" option to properly fix death criticals.

In my game, however, if a character/monster/animal goes "down" and was going to die or be at least temporarily disabled without the magical healing, I rule that the character needs a period of recovery depending on the injury from a few hours to a day or even several days.

I also use a house rule that healing costs time (see here: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=4986.0), so I think about adding a rule that it takes an additional 12 hours to heal "near death" (required Lifekeeping) damage in addition to ALL additional healing.

[jurasketu]

Well. Hack N Slash doesn't have that many broken bones and other stuff. But REALLY I always that was a little silly in the Base Combat Rules. From personal experience and observation of sports, it seems like that injuries that result in broken anything beyond a finger usually put the victim on the ground and not able to do much of anything besides moan in pain.

In the Crush Attack Table, critical results L, M, W, X, Y, Z all result in broken bones. So I'm not sure what you're asking.

[WoeRie]

Ok, I have to correct me, there are broken bones, though very seldom.
Normally it is not always clear what did the kill or you have a result like on the slash table (my most used table).

With a flash of your blade, foe goes all to pieces, literally. He is quite dead and quite messy.

I'm pretty sure that here are also broken bones involved, but...

[choc]

If Rasyr and WoeRie don't mind my interjection...

Well. By the Rules, magic healing is immediately effective. And so yeah. The guy should be able to pop right back up. It IS magic after all.

No problem w/ magic. Got only a problem w/ minor healing doesn't fir a slash-U and major healing doesn't fir the maneuver penalty of en U (except heal all damage scaling option)

And a V or W is imho more critical than an U.

You can handle a slash-Z as healed but in pieces - like in an old ali baba story

[Right Wing Wacko]

IMO, if a critical states "death in x rounds", and gives no other details beyond that as to damage, then a "stop death in x rounds" will prevent the PC from dying, but the PC would be out of it and probably unconscious. Note that it "stops death"... not heal damage...
I guess you have to think about "stopping death" and healing damage as two (2) separate things.

[Ramoran]

What if a body is pulped, crushed, incinerated, eviscerated, flayed, dismembered, or otherwise obliterated at the time of death?  Does the soul leave instantly?

[Right Wing Wacko]

No, the soul sticks around for the aforementioned period of time... whereupon it departs for whatever afterlife it deserves because the body is in no shape to receive it. Perhaps if the mess could be "healed" to be able to contain life, then the soul could return.
But who would want to return to a body that would have to be horribly scarred and mangled ...with corresponding horrible minuses to just about everything? 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

If a crit gives "death in xx rounds" and list no other damage, you can presume that at the damage and trauma were severe enough that the body will be a its negative Con value at the end of those rounds. You can also presume that there is also other related damage, in accordance with the attack.

And that the damage is such that there is also massive organ damage and so forth.

There are also a few crits that leave little or no remains to ressurect....

Just hope you don't receive one of those.. 

[Ramoran]

This is sort of related, sort of not.  It has to do with death, anyway, so I'll bring it up.

I was playing an ICE system a few weeks ago, and they told me I needed to roll high or roll a 66.  What is the significance of rolling a 66?  They never really explained it, and I somehow ended up not asking.  Must have gotten sidetracked.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Most likely you were rolling for a critical result.

On the critical tables, high rolls and 66's are almost always deadly (or at least EXTREMELY painful to target).