Topic: Spell Scaling Question

[Witchking20k]

Hi. A quick question on spell scaling. Can you scale a spell after it has already been cast?  For example, the PC casts Blur for 3PPs then a few rounds later wants to scale it up by 2PPs for a higher DB.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Short answer is "No".

Now, IIRC, there is one spell that specifically says can scale it after you cast it, but that is the exception, not the rule. The intention was that once cast, you cannot alter a spell

[WoeRie]

Look at the scaling rule of the HARP Rulebook page 108:
"This means that you can alter them from their base forms at the time of casting by deciding upon the alteration you wish to make and paying the additional power points to effect the alteration."

I think this is pretty clear and means that you are only allowed to scale the spell at the initial casting.

[maikeru]

Of course, me personally, I probably wouldn't mind allowing players to do this as a house rule on a few selected spells. I wouldn't allow say a bolt or something to be scaled mid flight for example. But, spells like armor and others that have a "duration" I would probably ok it as a house rule. YMMV.

--mike

[Witchking20k]

I was thinking the same thing. A bolt or such is gone at the end of the round, therefore could only be scaled  upon casting.  But, many spells could be altered after the fact. I'll give it a test drive.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Scaling after casting has a number of issues associated with it...

If you are going to allow scaling after casting, you will need to have players record their casting rolls, and then retroactively apply the casting mods for those scaling options to the original casting roll to see if the spell can survive being modified (it might make it too unstable and the spell might collapse).

I would also require that double the PP of the scaling option be expended (but only the mod for the scaling option be applied to initial roll) to change a scaling option.

I would also suggest requiring some sort of roll to see IF they can successfully change the option at all (I would suggest a Hard or Very Hard skill roll, using the spell's skill bonus) -- This is NOT a casting roll, this is skill roll!!

I would also not recommend that this be allowed on ANY type of attack spell. As pointed out above, changing the scaling options used would change the original attack roll as well, thus invalidating the results achieved in that initial attack. So, just don't allow it to be used on any attack spells, and you won't have to worry about trying to retroactively change the results of attack spells.

[mocking bird]

You might also want to limit it wrt duration only as opposed to spells which have much different effects as scaling option like mage armor, animal forms or nature's strength for example not to mention blur in the original post.

[maikeru]

I like the idea of the skill roll to see if it is even possible. I can live with double pp cost. "Should have though about it in the first place."

I agree with the no combat spells as mentioned above.

Now, say the PC wants to increase his mage armor, and fails the skill roll does he just waste the PP and the spell stays as is, or does it go out completely?

--mike

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Failure on the skill roll --

Depends on how badly he failed, I would say. Failure by just a few points would most likely leave the spell still active, and he just wasted the PP.

Failure by a whole lot (i.e. more than 25), and bye-bye spell. Failure by more than 50, and hello spell failure roll.... and so forth....

Not to mention, his initial casting roll needs to have been good enough to have succeeded with the scaling option for a basic successful skill roll to adjust the spell.

Plus you can do the reverse of the failure as well....

Succeed in the skill roll by more than 25 and yes you implemented the scaling option even if its inclusion in the original casting roll wasn't good enough to support it.

Succeed by more than 50, and it is as above, and the scaling option does not cost you double PP, but only normal PP + 1 (i.e. if you were upping it by a scaling option that cost 4 PP, you would normally have to expend 8 PP in doing this. With success of this magnitude, it only costs 5 PP (4 + 1).)

And don't forget the skill roll for implementing a scaling option AFTER casting should most likely be Very Hard (or perhaps Extremely Hard, if implementing the bonuses for success I just described).

[maikeru]

I like this. Do you mind if I write something up one this, possibly for GC or self?

--mike

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Go right ahead. It's not something that I would ever make official. 

[Witchking20k]

I had many of the same thoughts as you folks did.  But, I am content with making the Player roll a second spell casting roll, penalized by the scaling mod X2, and adding the PP value X2 to the fumble range.  If they survive that....go ahead...

So, a player wanting to scale her armor up by 3 PPs would be penalized at -30 for the spell casting roll, and +6 to her fumble range.

[Fidoric]

I'm experiencing fits of power monging tonight...
What happens when a Mablung Trallen (-5 for any 2 PP above the base) buy the Enhancement Talent (which states precisely the same).
1. The two cannot stack, thanks for having tried powermonging !
2. ?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I'm experiencing fits of power monging tonight...
What happens when a Mablung Trallen (-5 for any 2 PP above the base) buy the Enhancement Talent (which states precisely the same).
1. The two cannot stack, thanks for having tried powermonging !
2. ?

HARP core rulebook, page 48, left hand column, second paragraph, first sentence.

Unless otherwise stated in the description of the talent, a character may normally acquire a talent only once.

It then goes on to talk about how race and profession abilities are the basic exception to this, and can give multiples of the same ability.

[Fidoric]

That's perfectly clear, thanks. It can be seen as the same talent, even if the Trallen ability, applying to all spells, is a little bit larger.

[munchy]

Is it possible to buy a talent several times for different spells or is even this not possible if it isn't stated in the talent description that it can be bought again for different spells .... probably answered my own question just then .

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Is it possible to buy a talent several times for different spells or is even this not possible if it isn't stated in the talent description that it can be bought again for different spells .... probably answered my own question just then .

Yeah, you likely did...

[munchy]

Whoohoo, having a good run tonight!