Author Topic: Disengage questions  (Read 3411 times)

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kazapp

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Disengage questions
« on: November 15, 2007, 03:47:42 AM »
Regarding "Disengage from Melee" (p92):

1) Does Disengage work against several foes or is it only intended for a 1:1 fight?

2) Disengage says "this is not the only way to disengage from melee". What are those other ways? Is there a complete listing somewhere?

3) Where does the rulebook discuss what happens when you don't use Disengage? I mean, I have a vague idea just moving away means each foe gets to make his attack on you, but what and where is the actual rule?

Thanks,

Offline Blakkrall

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Re: Disengage questions
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2007, 05:59:06 AM »
2) Disengage says "this is not the only way to disengage from melee". What are those other ways?
May be Death could be one way  ;D
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kazapp

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Re: Disengage questions
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2007, 08:09:52 AM »
Good... yes... Winning the fight is another...  :)

But somhow I think that's not what this passage had in mind.

Offline janpmueller

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Re: Disengage questions
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2007, 08:10:34 AM »
1) Nothing speaking against it technically. The character would have to "Multiple Parry", splitting 50% of his OB between his foes (because he *has to* parry - at least that's how I would handle it. If a char only parries one of the guys, the other will keep after him). Of course, I'd allow the 2 foes an easy perception roll to see through the maneuver. Then, they could close in on the character from 2 sides. It should work with animals or stupid monsters, though.

2) Acrobatics? A spell? I guess this only means that a GM shouldn't prohibit good ideas and say "No, you have to disengage". Think Pirates of the Caribbean for innovative ways to disengage :)

3) What do you mean? If a character just moves away (with move and attack, or with move), the combat continues. To run away from a combat, you first have to disengage (getting some distance between you and your foe), then you turn and run (not saying that your foes won't catch you).
If you just turn to run, your opponent will take the time to make an attack (with +20 for rear attack), probably using full OB or even a Power Strike. You would only get flat DB (no parrying). Nobody would want that :)
"What's in the box?" - "Pain."

Offline janpmueller

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Re: Disengage questions
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2007, 08:11:40 AM »
PS to (3): There is no actual rule, because it just means the normal combat rules apply.
"What's in the box?" - "Pain."

kazapp

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Re: Disengage questions
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2007, 03:43:08 PM »
1) Disengage specifically says you need to make what amounts to a Full Parry.

What I was asking about was if the boon of Disengage (that you autowin initiative in the 2nd round) can be applied to more than one foe (that is, if by disengaging you can autowin initiative against both A and B provided you take no damage from either in the 1st round)?

2) I was asking because some games say "if you leave combat your foe gets a free attack". By making it somewhat cumbersome to leave melee the game makes "entering melee" more meaningful - you're committing yourself. Besides, the "you go then I go" nature of many rpgs doesn't capture well the real difficulty of leaving combat safely.

3) What happens if you wait until you win initiative and then simply move away?

(You say you need to first disengage and then turn and run. Where is the rule saying you need to disengage as opposed to simply leaving combat by moving away? Where is the rule that says you need some distance between you and your foe before you can start running?)

Thans for your help  :)

Offline janpmueller

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Re: Disengage questions
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2007, 07:44:52 AM »
1) Ah, I see... Wouldn't know if that's stated anywhere officially. I'd rule: Yes, it does work against 2 opponents. Fending them both off is harder than fending off one foe (because you have to split the OB), so that's penalty enough. Making leaving combat even harder serves no other purpose but making your characters easier to kill in an ambush.

2) I think if you just leave, your foe does get a free attack (see below). Disengage helps you to put enough distance between you and the foe (or make flight possible through some other combat trick, I suppose. More distance is just the one that seems most logical to me).

3) I wouldn't know a rule, it just makes sense to me that way. Iniative is a very abstract thing. Let's say your player gets initiative 18, the opponent gets 14. Assuming the PC chose to move (I'd definitely let players choose their actions for a round and then roll initiative), he starts moving first.
But the opponent is just a little slower. If your PC turns and moves, I'd just state that of course the "move & attack" of the foe comes in time. Especially because he sees that the player is about to leave, he'll probably hit extra hard.

To me, initiative is a very narrow thing. Keep in mind that Raysr always points out that a single attack roll doesn't mean there's one single attack. It could mean many swift attacks, a back and fro between opponents... anything that fits in 2 seconds. So a won initiative roll means you're a little quicker that round, and maybe can hurt your opponent before he can hurt you. If so, he loses his action.
But walking (or even running) away doesn't seem to fit in that tiny fragment of time.

Try to think it through in real life. If you're wrestling with someone, even in play, whoever is quicker will be able to gain a better position in the fight. That's initiative, allright. But what's your friends chance to just get away from you? Very low, I'd say, unless he pushes you away somehow before he tries to run. And that would be a perfect example for a disengage maneuver :)


Don't try to work hard to be within the rules. Try to make the rules work hard for you, so you have a better gaming experience. They should reflect reality to a certain extent, so just interpret them in the way that makes the most sense to you. My interpretation is the one above, but I assume there could be others.

Best regards,

Jan

PS: If you want disengage to be a little tougher, try a bonus on the initiative roll next round (say, +10). Only if the player moves before his opponent, is he free to run. Otherwise, it didn't work.

Edit:
Quote
What happens if you wait until you win initiative and then simply move away?
Ah - that shouldn't happen. You have to declare your action before you roll initiative. Otherwise, you use meta-knowledge to your advantage. (In a real fight, you can't wait to see if your opponent attacks or plans to parry, at least not in time to decide what you do. Everyone just starts doing what their doing, and then - chaos. There are just very few exceptions (sudden dodge, instant spell), otherwise you have to stick with what you chose).
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 07:50:06 AM by janpmueller »
"What's in the box?" - "Pain."

kazapp

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Re: Disengage questions
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2007, 02:34:47 AM »
Don't try to work hard to be within the rules.
Thank you. Though first, I would like to know the rules (as officially intended) before I can know which ones to break...  :D

So, to repeat what's been said so far:

1) Is the official position of the rules that you can use Disengage when fighting two (or more) enemies, only that you can only defend yourself against one of them, hoping simply the rest will miss (against your base DB)? And if they do, you'll win initiative against all of them round #2?

2 & 3) Regarding "other ways of combat" I didn't mean things like winning/losing the combat; using trickery or special spells/skills. Not primarily at least, as I can see all those things. Sorry if I weren't clear.

Instead I'm asking if the designer had any specific rules mechanism in mind? A different combat action perhaps?

And oh, what is the official sequence of events if you just leave combat? What happens if you just move away?

And finally, if you can do that (without added risk), then what is the purpose of Disengage?

Yes, if I had to summarize my questions into only one, it would be: could anyone detail the exact benefits of Disengage as opposed to the generally available alternatives?


regards,
kazapp