Author Topic: Is the Rogue imbalanced?  (Read 5229 times)

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Offline munchy

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Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« on: October 23, 2007, 06:50:04 AM »
Having seven favoured categories, access to the universal sphere and a bonus to skills, the profession seem quite strong compared to others. Jack-of-trades well and all but still, there are only three catgories non-favoured for the rogue.
How do you handle this?
Even the adventurer has only got six.
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Offline janpmueller

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2007, 07:32:55 AM »
That's exactly why I didn't quite like HARP being profession-based, and the reason for me finding rules for a profession-less variant (see Downloads-section).
This "variant" is no big deal and boils down to balance the number of favored categories (FCs) with the available special ability of the class.

Without changing the whole system, I'd just rule the Rogue needs to drop 1 (or even 2) FC. He can choose which, so he still is pretty versatile. 6 FCs isn't so uncommon, and considering that the adventurer has 6, but also knows magic (own sphere), it seems okay to me.
 
Of course, you also could just leave it as it is - a Rogue won't specialize, so he'll never be really, really good at any one skill. The broadness of available skills might compensate for that. Then again, players could abuse that, so I understand your wish for changing the FCs a bit. Boy, am I facetted today...  ???

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Offline WoeRie

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2007, 07:50:26 AM »
I totally agree, the Rogue is the ideal profession for Munchkinism. All my players want to play a Rogue, nobody wants to play a fighter or a thief. Compared to a fighter, the +5 every 3 levels is nearly as high as the +10 to combat and more flexible and the Shield Training and Lightning Reflexes cost a mere 20DP, where Shield Training is in addition useless if you want to use TWC or a Two-handed weapon.
Somebody here in the forum even mentioned to play a Rogue and then take the Arcane Power: Magician as a talent.

Possibilities:
1) Simply forbid the Rogue as a player character. As a result we had a great Elven Thief and a Dwarven Fighter in my Cyradon campaign.

2) Just ignore the imbalance (however I would not allow the Rogue as Mage). This resulted in 2 Rogues in my Echoes of Heaven campaign, where 1 is a mixture of Thief and Fighter (what is fine for me), but the other one is simply a Fighter, with a few additional skills (like Stalk&Hide). I wouldn't allow this anymore.

3) Let all players select Rogue (a kind of profession-less HARP).  ;D

4) Do as janpmueller mentioned, just remove 1 or 2 favored categories.

Of course, you also could just leave it as it is - a Rogue won't specialize, so he'll never be really, really good at any one skill. The broadness of available skills might compensate for that.
I disagree, he can put as many ranks on a skill as a fighter. So he CAN spezialise, but he don't has to and most of the time he has the one or two most impotant skills maxed out.

Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2007, 08:50:09 AM »
I don't think there is a problem with the rogue.
As has been mentioned, although he has access to many FC, he still will not be able to equal the Fighter or Thief of the same level.
A mere 20 DP's?
Thats a lot of DP's that can be spent on other things!!!

A first level Fighter can bang better than a first level Rogue.
Maybe, at best, the Rogue could EQUAL a fighters OB at level 1, but at the expense of DP that could've been used on Thiefly skills...

The whole concept of Rogue is like Fighter/Thief, IMO,... meaning he can do both but not as well as either individually.

If a Rogue PC is sinking a lot of DP's into combat skills and performing as a fighter, perhaps he should have been a fighter to start with.

I dunno...
I just really don't see a problem with the Rogue.
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Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2007, 09:20:33 AM »
Neither do I see a problem with the rogue.
One more FC than the Adventurer, which in addition to the Universal sphere has its own Adventurer sphere, I would rather say that the Adventurer is slightly unbalanced, since you can choose some of the FCs.

The only way a rogue can equal a fighter in OB on level one, is by having better stats in ag and st. the fighter gets a +10 to a combat skill, whilst a rogue has to choose between all his FC and add a +5 to one of them, if he wastes that on combat skills, well good for him/her, but ambush? sniping? stalk&hide, very useful skills a fighter does not have access to as cheaply... balance just there if you ask me.
A fighter also has access to the Universal sphere, everyone does, of course he must pay 4 dps for a rank as opposed to the rogue?s 2, but there are more than spells in the Mystical Arts category, many which are more useful than spells, like Runes and Attunement, these are essential for magical items and deciphering runes (do'h).

Of course it can be munchkined, but that is more of a player-problem than a profession-problem, at least that is my opinion.
Rogues are good all-arounders, fair enough, but my own players have experienced the importance of having a fighter in the group, as opposed to a fighter oriented rogue, there is a distinct difference in martial prowess, perhaps not very much so at early levels, but the more levels you gain, the more the difference appear, the fighter gets faster and higher bonuses to combat related skills, whilst the rogue can choose the same, he should be tempted to put some of his skill bonuses into ambush, stalk&hide, riding, survival or tracking, something a fighter cannot, but is insanely useful for an adventuring group. In addition they will both have the same, or close to the same amount of DPs, and whilst the fighter have a more limited choice of skills, a rogue then has to spread it out thinly on all the "cheap" skills he?s got, and the players will be close to equal in power level, the fighter is the tank/killing machine, whilst the rogue can be a ranger-cross-over-thief-and-mystical-arts-jokey, or whatever is needed to fill in the gaps.

One thing though, if the player wants to play a fighter oriented character, but chooses rogue to be versatile, then ask some questions about background, where he was taught to fight and such, the fighter might not at first glance appeal to many players, but it is, in my own experience, a very powerful and useful profession. I once created a fighter, based on the spartans (300, yeah yeah... :P) fighting with a spear, sometimes combined with a shield. Believe me, I was a charging machine; two handed hold on the spear and charge equals "death to enemies", at least most of the time:D I was in fact playing with a rogue, he suffered, believe me, he suffered bad!

So, all in all, I see no big issue with the profession as such, but I can understand reservation towards it, if players intent is to munchkin and min/max in a bad way, but this can be done with other professions too, like the monk and cleric too. It is my opinion though that this is not a game balance issue as such, the professions only need, perhaps, better players ("better" as in not intent on munchkining and power gaming) and more details on background and character concept.
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Offline choc

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2007, 09:41:28 AM »
In our settings only fighters are allowed to learn (the most) combat styles. (and monks are allowed to learn MA styles only except wrestling, strikes and sweeps). Only fighters are allowed to use expert and legendary combat actions.
Exception: a thief is able to learn a specific TWC (2 short blades or knive & whip). Thiefs allowed to learn piano string as a weapon :P
Thiefs p.e. has some advancements in some subterfuge skills (under some circumstances) like the ranger in herbcraft.

The only problem i have with the rouge class is professional adaptivity. You can only choose one feat and the rogue only has one.

Offline GMLovlie

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2007, 10:03:10 AM »
The only problem i have with the rouge class is professional adaptivity. You can only choose one feat and the rogue only has one.
What do you mean here?
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Dr_Sage

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2007, 11:48:34 AM »
The only problem i have with the rouge class is professional adaptivity. You can only choose one feat and the rogue only has one.
What do you mean here?

LOL I think this is DnD.

Offline choc

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2007, 12:41:02 PM »
my fault.

I mean additional profession :/ ->
Quote from: core book
The character
may select and gain one professional
ability from his new
profession. This is the only professional ability that he gains from adding the new
profession.

This implicits you can choose another profession first, get all prof abilities and in lvl2 or 3 take rogue an level up with the rogue only.
It's cheaper do this way i.e. fighter first than purchase lightning reflexes and shield training (and another +10 on a weapon)

Offline munchy

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2007, 01:10:35 PM »
Right, then I'm calm again and will enjoy the rogue being played.
Thanks for the great ideas and great comments on this one. Really helpful and gave a lot of insight!
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Dr_Sage

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2007, 01:20:08 PM »
my fault.

I mean additional profession :/ ->
Quote from: core book
The character
may select and gain one professional
ability from his new
profession. This is the only professional ability that he gains from adding the new
profession.

This implicits you can choose another profession first, get all prof abilities and in lvl2 or 3 take rogue an level up with the rogue only.
It's cheaper do this way i.e. fighter first than purchase lightning reflexes and shield training (and another +10 on a weapon)

Its perfectly inside the rules, but I just hate it.

Usually I think a professin is more than a bunch of numbers.... but its just me. ;)

Offline choc

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2007, 02:00:51 PM »
That's true sage. I don't like this either.
I prefer to build the background first, take a look at the scenario and then choose a suitable profession.

I just mentioned that the rogue has only ONE prof ability. (and i played a rogue only once - in a caribean scenario - pirates and galleons) On the other hand the adventurer is a really mighty profession ('cuz our campaingns lack of high magic - non favorite mysticals aren't able to cast spells)

Dr_Sage

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2007, 02:16:32 PM »
I get it.  ;)

Technicaly the Avdentures and Druid are mega imba compared to others, but I don?t think its a big issue if you work with archetypes.

Regards.

Offline Crypt

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2007, 08:15:09 PM »
i have no problem with the Rogue.

Perharps because i do not allow Universal spells nor Cantrips for characters who do not have a spell casting sphere...
« Last Edit: November 06, 2007, 03:20:38 AM by Crypt »


Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2007, 01:00:48 AM »
This implicits you can choose another profession first, get all prof abilities and in lvl2 or 3 take rogue an level up with the rogue only.
It's cheaper do this way i.e. fighter first than purchase lightning reflexes and shield training (and another +10 on a weapon)

That's the only problem I have with the Rogue. Per se the profession is IMO quite balanced as the Rogue does have quite a lot of Favoured Categories but OTOH has no special Talents except for a +5 to a skill every three levels. But exactly this makes the Rogue the ideal secondary profession. It is kind of the only profession where you get all its professional abilities when you select it as second profession on later levels.

Offline black flag

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2007, 02:54:40 AM »
Hi All Folks there!
Like CRYPT: I have no problems w/ Rogue.
No rules are perfects but , to me HARP is a very balanced game. If someone thinks that rogues are unbalanced, how think about fighters w/ their great bonuses in weapons? Monks w/ JET LI Martial Art styles? Magicians with elemental attacks?  Vivamancers w/ powers on lifegiving? Necromancers with awfuls spells....and on, and on....
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Offline WoeRie

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Re: Is the Rogue imbalanced?
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2007, 04:54:25 AM »
Ok, I think I said not exactly what I meant  :(
I do not mean that the Rogue is more powerful then the other classes but far more flexible and therefore preferable for most (or at least my) players.

Normally my players don?t tell me what HARP Profession they want to play, but they describe what kind of character. Like a Barbarian, an Assassin, a Hunter or a Knight and we then discuss what fit best. Of course the Fighter is best suited for a standard tank, but even then most would like to have a high skill in Stalk&Hide and for the above concepts we would need other skills in addition, which would be non-favored for the Fighter but favored for the Rogue.

Bringing a single non-favored skill to 20 ranks costs you 40DP more than for a favored. This will give you Lightning Reflexes, Shield Training and an additional 20DPs for other skills.

However, I hope this will change after I introduce the Skill Flexibility talent (see TGC Dec 2006 or HARP SF), because most of the time it is only one or two skills. So looking forward for my next campaign when I firstly introduce this talent.  ;D