Topic: Skills, Ranks, Levels

[Dr_Sage]

Way to go jurasketu,

you handle DPs the way my group handle the charactedr backgrounds. We setle a basic background and then finish it during game play. MOst TV Shows work like this right? You find out about characters past way after the series begin. The writers usually use audience as guidance for that.

Regarding your idea, I suggest only ONE limitation: if the character had already demonstrated that he does not possess the skill -  for example: already drowned on 1 metter deep pool,  I think would not be cool if he suddely had 10 ranks on swim. 

[jurasketu]

Thank you for the Idea Points!

[pemerton]

I allow my players to spend DPs whenever they wish on skills and spells they already know, could reasonably know or provide a story suitable explanation why they could know. I allow this to be done even in the middle of combat if a player so chooses - even to purchase a fate point if they wish. I allow them to purchase as many ranks as their level allows per the standard rules. The story rationale is this - the player suddenly remembers they know how to swim or ride a horse. Or secretly have been practicing Turn Undead.

I know it sounds insane - it goes against everything RPGs have ever been.

I think it's actually quite consistent with contemporary trends in RPG design: having the character build mechanics be an expressly metagame set of rules designed to give players a degree of narrative control (somewhat similarly to how Fate Points give players a degree of narrative control in relation to the action resolution mechanics).

You might be interested in the system of Fate Point Development that I wrote up for The Guild Companion: instead of DPs, Fate Points are the mechanical reward for accomplishing goals, and these can be cashed in for 5 DPs at any time.

[jurasketu]

Ah. Interesting (just finished reading the article).

I like that idea almost as much as mine. (I would claim the advantage of mine being that other than changing the timing of when the DPs can be spent, the rules are unchanged). Its definitely good to know that other folks are thinking along those lines. That reminds me. A few years ago, I wrote my own set of RPG rules and used them as my gaming rules for a year before the herculean effort of having to create everything myself overwhelmed the oatmeal I use for brains. Anyway, one of the interesting features was its use of Adventure Points (styled very much along the lines of your fate points). I got the idea kernel from the old James Bond game that used "hero" points.

Quoting myself:

"Adventure Points represent not just training or experience, but also sudden insight, divine intervention, dogged determination, good fortune, and "rising to the occasion"."

So, naturally I approve of your fate points system.

One of the amusing uses of adventure points was the "Batman Rule" - for an Adventure Point a player could claim to have or find laying nearby a mundane piece of equipment or good they might "need" at that particular moment (a shovel for example) but hadn't bothered to 'acquire' in the normal course of the game.

Robin

[jurasketu]

I followed up by reading the other article you wrote for that Guild Companion Addtional Fate Point Options

And that gets two thumbs up from me.

Robin

[pemerton]

Jurasketu - thanks for the thumbs up!

[Crypt]

Even slower progression rate =>

rate: 5/4/3/2/1

1st Lvl max rank= 6

Max rank/lvl =
    2 at even overall level
    1 at odd overall level

favoured categories= 3 DP
others = 6 DP
instead of 2 or 4.

3 X total DEV points at first level instead of 2X.


Overall level --Max Ranks --Total
1 -----------------6 -----------------30
2 -----------------8 -----------------40
3 -----------------9 -----------------45
4 -----------------11 -----------------54
5 -----------------12 -----------------58
6 -----------------14 -----------------66
7 -----------------15 -----------------70
8 -----------------17 -----------------78
9 -----------------18 -----------------82
10 -----------------20 -----------------90
11 -----------------21 -----------------93
12 -----------------23 -----------------99
13 -----------------24 -----------------102
14 -----------------26 -----------------108
15 -----------------27 -----------------111
16 -----------------29 -----------------117
17 -----------------30 -----------------120
18 -----------------32 -----------------124
19 -----------------33 -----------------126
20 -----------------35 -----------------130
21 -----------------36 -----------------132
22 -----------------38 -----------------136
23 -----------------39 -----------------138
24 -----------------41 -----------------141
25 -----------------42 -----------------142
26 -----------------44 -----------------144
27 -----------------45 -----------------145
28 -----------------47 -----------------147
29 -----------------48 -----------------148
30 -----------------50 -----------------150

In order to keep the same average number of modified skill at each level increase, costs (3/6) and starting DEV Pts should be increased by 25%. But this would not result in round numbers. Without that the only consequence is that at each odd overall level the player would have to modified twice more skills than at even levels. I think this is not a real problem.

[janpmueller]

Concerning the very nice ideas of jurasketu: Just as an additional input, I have the urge to limit the option of "belated development", if I may call it that.
I would set one limit like
- Pay a fate point to be able to spend DPs on any one skill midway in a level.
- You can only keep back a maximum of 5 DPs each level.
- You can only spend 2 DPs on any one skill midway in a level.

That way, it preserves some realism, so to speak. "What, didn't I tell you, I happen to be a master craftsman?" is a lot more of a stretch than "Well, I know some, my uncle did that".
With the fate point option, the heroism is at least reflected by a heroic mechanism.

The "in-game logic" mentioned above by Dr_Sage seems a good rule to have, too.

[WoeRie]

- Pay a fate point to be able to spend DPs on any one skill midway in a level.
- You can only keep back a maximum of 5 DPs each level.
- You can only spend 2 DPs on any one skill midway in a level.

Finally I really start to like the idea. 

You suggest to pay one Fatepoint in addition to the DP. Why not simply improve the use of a Fatepoint to:

1 Fatepoint: Gain +1 rank in any favored skill, anytime.
2 Fatepoints: Gain +1 rank in any non-favored skill, anytime.

Normally a Fatepoint cost 5DP, so I think it is enough extra cost (instead of 5DP in addition to the 2 previously saved DP) for the feature to get a new skill On-the-fly.

[janpmueller]

Good point! Reserving DPs makes the later development feel more natural, though. It's more like finding out you're good at something you never tried before. Also, players don't get better than they usually would, they just get better at the exactly right moment in the exactly right skill.
Fate Point development feels more heroic, and messes less with game mechanics, which is a big plus. Then again, it is a pretty big bonus for any one fate point (because this could really accelerates skill development more than would be available otherwise).

Somehow, the original idea sounds "more right" to me, but I can't really say why. Your cost-argument makes total sense, but somehow being able to buy skill ranks with FPs seems to cheap (because it can so accelerate character development - I might be especially sensitive, because in our group, we don't buy FPs, but earn them through roleplaying. Feels like this mixes different currencies (RP and char dev)).

Don't really know.
In my group, I'll propose reserving a maximum of 4 DPs (sorry for the "5 DPs"-option, that doesn't really make sense because of the 2/ 4 costs), and they can spend them whenever they feel like it (but only on skills they don't have - otherwise, they can spend them usually with the next level-up).

[WoeRie]

Somehow, the original idea sounds "more right" to me, but I can't really say why. Your cost-argument makes total sense, but somehow being able to buy skill ranks with FPs seems to cheap (because it can so accelerate character development - I might be especially sensitive, because in our group, we don't buy FPs, but earn them through roleplaying. Feels like this mixes different currencies (RP and char dev)).

I think if you play by the rules the 5DP fatepoint for a 2DP skill rank is ok, but you are right about the mxing of currencies. I don't allow to buy fatepoints either and give them as an award only. However they are still (or because of this) seldom and valuable enough that they won't be used too often for something NON lethal. 

[kazapp]

I don't allow the purchase of Fate Points either 

[jurasketu]

I understand your point. But don't you think HARP fate points are pretty mild in effect? I mean, a +50 is not that impressive and in Hack'N'Slash is unlikely to prevent a debilitating injury from an open-ended role - it might take 2 or 3 fate points to actually have light shine out your behind and blind your enemies. Other systems (Warhammer for example) give a lot more power to fate points and so those need to be earned. HARP fate points are relatively weak - so buying fate points seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Fate points are best used to cover up a bad roll or two at the wrong moment that could ruin an otherwise interesting character and/or campaign. Sure. I loved playing Call of Cthulhu where it was like Improv Theater - a new Investigator every week. But I like to see heroics. Fate points help make that possible.

In general, skills are a much better buy than fate points over the long haul. If you spend 60 DPs on 30 ranks for Stamina, Will and Magic Resistance, you won't need to spend a fate point every time you need to make a resistance roll. And in my campaign you need to make resistance rolls a plenty.

At the same time, I think limiting fate points as a special reward only and not purchasable is a perfectly sound idea. But I would suggest making them more powerful. Instead of just a +50, make it a +100 bonus per fate point. And allow a fate point to prevent the effects of a death critical (for example - the character appears dead but is really just unconscious and doesn't bleed to death). The latter effect is an important substitute for Lifekeeping/Lifegiving if you find the whole "Raise from the Dead" stuff a bit unsatisfying and unheroic. If you ban "Lifegiving", then characters will save those fate points for only those situations where they are going to die OR show real heroism by using their all-important fate points to stay in there fighting.

Robin

[WoeRie]

I understand your point. But don't you think HARP fate points are pretty mild in effect? I mean, a +50 is not that impressive and in Hack'N'Slash is unlikely to prevent a debilitating injury from an open-ended role - it might take 2 or 3 fate points to actually have light shine out your behind and blind your enemies.

Yes, sometimes the players have to spend two fatepoints, but most of the time -50 on the roll at least saves their life. I know of the more effective fatepoints in other systems, but I'm happy how they are. The result is that I give them away more frequently than in Warhammer. It's up to the GM if you use them as an award.

But it seems we went off-topic.