Author Topic: Skills, Ranks, Levels  (Read 8591 times)

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Offline Crypt

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Skills, Ranks, Levels
« on: October 15, 2007, 04:00:45 PM »
Is there any technical objection to that :

Skill progression: 5/3/2/1
Maximum starting ranks = 6
Maximum ranks in one skill when gaining a level = 2.
(this may be considered optional as some people use the standard (3XLvl)+3 maximum rank even for newly acquired skills, even after character creation.)

Bonus tends to stay the same as for the standard version but ranks tends to be lower, mainly at higher character levels. Thus this slow down the effectiveness increase rate of effects relying on ranks (spells, combat actions...), delaying the moment when players will feel forced to access to new classes.

edit:
favoured categories= 3 DP
others = 6 DP

instead of 2 or 4.

3 X total DEV points at first level instead of 2X.

This way two first level characters with one using the standard rule and the other using this rule would be exactly the same.



Level 1 ==> max ranks 6 ==> bonus 30
Level 2 ==> max ranks 8 ==> bonus 40
Level 5 ==> max ranks 14 ==> bonus 62
Level 10 ==> max ranks 24 ==> bonus 88
Level 15 ==> max ranks 34 ==> bonus 104
Level 20 ==> max ranks 44 ==> bonus 114 ... etc

instead of

Level 1 ==> max ranks 6 ==> bonus 30
Level 2 ==> max ranks 9 ==> bonus 45
Level 5 ==> max ranks 18 ==> bonus 66
Level 10 ==> max ranks 33 ==> bonus 83
Level 15 ==> max ranks 48 ==> bonus 98
Level 20 ==> max ranks 63 ==> bonus 113 ... etc
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 08:11:46 AM by Crypt »


Dr_Sage

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2007, 05:10:22 PM »
I believe you just stole one of my ideas  :laugh3:

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2007, 05:18:32 PM »
just make sure that your players know that you are making such a core change to the rules.

However, due to level limitations, it should be (lvl x 2) + 2 ranks, not 4. The +3 ranks in the core rules is because the character does 2 levels of development before being called first level.

Plus the core progression rate is 5/2/1, not 5/3/2/1

That would give us a comparison along the lines of the following....

[tabular type=1]
[row] [head rowspan=2]Level[/head] [head colspan=2]Standard Progressions - 5/2/1[/head] [head colspan=2]Crypts - 5/3/2/1 - (lvl x 2)+4[/head][head colspan=2]Crypts - 5/3/2/1 - (lvl x 2)+2[/head][head colspan=2]5/2/1 @ (lvl x 2)+2[/head] [/row]
[row]  [data]
Ranks
[/data] [data]
Bonus
[/data] [data]
Ranks
[/data] [data]
Bonus
[/data] [data]
Ranks
[/data] [data]
Bonus
[/data] [data]
Ranks
[/data] [data]
Bonus
[/data][/row]
[row] [data]
1
[/data] [data]
6
[/data] [data]
30
[/data] [data]
6
[/data] [data]
30
[/data] [data]
4
[/data] [data]
20
[/data] [data]
4
[/data] [data]
20
[/data][/row]
[row] [data]
2
[/data] [data]
9
[/data] [data]
45
[/data] [data]
8
[/data] [data]
40
[/data] [data]
6
[/data] [data]
30
[/data] [data]
6
[/data] [data]
30
[/data][/row]
[row] [data]
5
[/data] [data]
18
[/data] [data]
66
[/data] [data]
24
[/data] [data]
62
[/data] [data]
12
[/data] [data]
56
[/data] [data]
12
[/data] [data]
54
[/data][/row]
[row] [data]
10
[/data] [data]
33
[/data] [data]
83
[/data] [data]
24
[/data] [data]
88
[/data] [data]
22
[/data] [data]
84
[/data] [data]
22
[/data] [data]
72
[/data][/row]
[row] [data]
15
[/data] [data]
48
[/data] [data]
98
[/data] [data]
34
[/data] [data]
104
[/data] [data]
32
[/data] [data]
102
[/data] [data]
32
[/data] [data]
82
[/data][/row]
[row] [data]
20
[/data] [data]
63
[/data] [data]
113
[/data] [data]
44
[/data] [data]
114
[/data] [data]
42
[/data] [data]
112
[/data] [data]
42
[/data] [data]
92
[/data][/row]
[/tabular]


Offline Crypt

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2007, 05:49:33 PM »
Quote
However, due to level limitations, it should be (lvl x 2) + 2 ranks, not 4. The +3 ranks in the core rules is because the character does 2 levels of development before being called first level.

but in the other hand young people tend to learn faster than older ones and, more honestly, it would be a little hard for new characters to be allowed only a 20 bonus from ranks in their skills.


IMHO the 2 X DP pool to spend at the beginning should be considered as a whole instead of "2 levels of development" because during adventure characters improve at an amazing rate compared to pre-adventure experiences. I agree that field experience can be very effective but the ratio is so monstrously unbalanced* (that's true with all rpgs) that i think it's hard to see the beginning double DP pool like 2 real levels of development.

* eg. in a week of adventure a character may gain the equivalent of 10 years or so of youth and apprentisship.

PS: i hope it's not confusing. I have some difficulties to explain this in english.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 05:56:29 PM by Crypt »


Dr_Sage

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2007, 06:13:14 PM »
Remmember this?

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Offline black flag

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2007, 11:45:24 PM »
Hi to all Folks

To me, the real problem in the rules (honestly not a big problem... :P) is not the bonus by the ranks. I think the rule for Knowledge/Linguistic/ combat skills must be expanded to all skills. I mean that the number of ranks must give an advantage to the PC/NPC and not only a big score with the dice:
- Craft: in rules, the rank is social standing too: but no details about the money earn by day for the crafter...
- knowledge/linguistic: your efficiently increases with your ranks: a very good idea
- combat: a great hero can doing some spectacular feats of fight with a big score ranks (in ML)
- craft: in ML a good crafter can doing very good weapons/armours..
But not on all over skills.... to me a hero can doing spectacular feats not only in battles...
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Offline Crypt

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2007, 02:13:07 AM »
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yes.
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Offline Unwise

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2007, 08:29:50 PM »
Does anyone else only allow players to buy 2 ranks per level in a skill? This seems a very fundamental change to the HARP character mechanic.

So if a character wanted to learn the Light spell, they would have to spend 3 levels doing so? (I think it is a 6 point spell)

I really like the fact that HARP can see significant changes to a character per level. For instance a rogue might put almost their entire level into Poisoning and become very good at it. The player sees their character change in a meaningful way, rather than just incremental and largely unnoticable changes.

HARP is so tight on points that each point is so precious it must be able to be spent in a meaningful way. This tightness on points also stops people from splurging on one aspect of their character too often, or at least penalises them if they do.

The RM way of skill increasing only 2 ranks at a time led to situations where characters could not be bothered starting on new skills as the campaign would end before they were any good at them. For instance, a high level theif has most of the thiefy stuff he wants, so decides he wants to be able to duel-wield his daggers. In RM he may as well give up, since it will take him 5+ levels to get enough boxes to use this effeciently. He is forced to spend points where he did not really want to. In HARP he can do it in one level, as long as he is willing to sacrifice his other skills.

In the example above, the player sees their character improve in a meaningful way and is happy. The GM sees the characters fleshed out, rather than keep on spending points on the same things again and again.

--------

Regarding the rank progressions. It may have some effect in slowing down the point at which players decide to swap their classes, which is a good thing. The more significant change though would be that players now have alot more points to play with. At 10th level we are looking at 24 ranks giving the same bonus as 33 does with the orginal rules. That is a very significant lot of points saved in the characters creation to reach the same skill level.

Are you happy with more powerful characters or do you balance this with giving characters less points per level? If so how does that effect the relative cost of talents?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 08:38:01 PM by Unwise »

Offline bunny

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2007, 09:24:51 PM »
Does anyone else only allow players to buy 2 ranks per level in a skill? This seems a very fundamental change to the HARP character mechanic.

I think it's more realistic to limit progression in this way but I dont bother to enforce it - any level based system (or any system really) isnt going to mirror the way we learn skills in real life. I just close my eyes and ignore the fact that last adventure, the guy didnt know one end of the sword from another, now he's a skilled duelist. At the end of the day, these things dont come up enough to be a problem and in my experience are abstract enough that they dont present a barrier to the suspension of disbelief required when any character "goes up a level".

Offline Unwise

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2007, 10:48:22 PM »
Agreed Bunny.

Normally I find the characters that put alot of points into a skill do so for a good reason. For instance they are now in an area and don't speak the native language. They have been fighting against a Lich King in an ongoing campaign but never bought undead lore and have been suffering for it etc. Looking back I can easily picture the character having been training heavily in these skills during the last level.

Dr_Sage

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2007, 11:55:17 PM »
Remmember this?

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yes.
What did you finally choose ?

LOL

I still didn?t make any changes becuse the campaign isnt over. I dont like to change the rules during the game. :/

Offline choc

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2007, 01:37:35 AM »
I disapprove of the limit skill progression particulary the enforcement to use the skill wanted to improve.

There are skills, you cannot use before a certain amount of ranks (or did you ever use magical ritual with less than 10 ranks?). Or look at spells, you cannot cast them before you reach a limit of ranks.
If you restrict skill progression you force the players to invest dev pts in skills/ranks they can't use. The unlimited progression is one of the huge advantages of HARP compared to RM. You are able to learn sth at any time (level progression) instead of calculate each possible required skill at character creation.

There are exceptions - but these should be compensate by roleplaying behavior.
(ie language: no more than 1-3 ranks under normal conditions, but wherefore not 6 ranks if you have a (ore more) superior instructor(s) and invested a lot of time)

Offline Crypt

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2007, 02:34:21 AM »
Skill progression: 5/3/2/1
Maximum starting ranks = (2XLevel)+4
Maximum ranks in one skill when gaining a level = 2. (this may be considered optional as some people use the standard (3XLvl)+3 maximum rank even for newly acquired skills, even after character creation.)

and
favoured skill = 3 DP
others = 6 DP

instead of 2 or 4.

This way the final costs of 2 ranks stay the same as the standard 3 ranks  and players are not forced to spend DP in a lot of skills (which would counter the fact that new classes access tendancy is delayed.)




Quote
I disapprove of the limit skill progression particulary the enforcement to use the skill wanted to improve.


What limit skill progression do you speak about ?
Is it the "maximum 2 (or 3 in standard version) ranks per skills when a level is gained" ?

If so i must say i really dislike the idea that a character could gain (Level X x)+y ranks during  just one level increase in a skill he didn't previously know. IMHO, this would be an horrible non-sense. I simply refuse to apply that. I would never do that in any rpg, whatever it is. This is evil and one of the worst rule i ever seen.  ;D



But if you speak about the slowed progression rate => i think this is a matter of taste and not to be used with every campaign.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 02:52:39 AM by Crypt »


Offline uberyoung

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2007, 07:22:12 AM »
I was thinking about applying a 3 ranks/lvl buying limit, on the proviso that more than 3 ranks CAN still be learnt if you spend time (and maybe money) on an instructor / teacher (i.e. roleplay it).
Depending on the skill level of the instructor / teacher, you could cap ranks purchased, i.e.
Max. ranks buyable = ( Teachers Ranks - Students Ranks ) / 2, for example.
That way, a far superior teacher could impart a lot of knowledge (i.e. ranks) into a newbie, but if the teacher and student skill ranks are close, the student will not learn much.
If you track time, you could say 1 Rank / Day of instruction, and 1sp (or whatever) tuition fee...

This method also makes Skill Ranks a little more important (than just adding into a bonus) for all skills, because it can represent your 'teaching capacity'.

The instructor / teacher could be a scroll or book for certain skills or spells.
The Spell Scroll could 'teach' up to it's maximum ranks of the form it is written in (basic, scaled etc.)
A book would have a Max. Rank value associated with it depending on it's content...

Offline Alwyn

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2007, 03:55:36 PM »
One house rule that I use is that a character can only learn a new skill when they are some place that it can be taught. 

If they go up a level and are in the middle of the wilderness and want to improve an existing skill they already have, that's fine.  Otherwise, if they want to learn a new skill they hold on to their DPs until they can find an instructor, master, academy, or some such to teach them the new skill.   
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Offline jurasketu

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2007, 11:11:12 PM »
I have enjoyed this thread. I like the ideas. But I just have to share what I do. Its slap crazy - but let me explain.

Let me first provide context. I think that one of most difficult chores for a gamemaster is making sure an adventure scenario can be accomplished by the players. If its impossible, that's bad. A self-designed module has to take into account the skills and spells the players currently have to provide the right level of challenge. With a published module, either you have to "hint" the players to take a particular skill or spell (and hence give away something) or modify the module. What's the point of purchasing a module if you have to spend hours editing to make it suitable?.

So. I allow my players to spend DPs whenever they wish on skills and spells they already know, could reasonably know or provide a story suitable explanation why they could know. I allow this to be done even in the middle of combat if a player so chooses - even to purchase a fate point if they wish. I allow them to purchase as many ranks as their level allows per the standard rules. The story rationale is this - the player suddenly remembers they know how to swim or ride a horse. Or secretly have been practicing Turn Undead.

I know it sounds insane - it goes against everything RPGs have ever been. But it has many advantages. Since I encourage players to hoard their DPs until they need them, many new skills are born in the context of an encounter or story obstacle. This gives most skills and spells special story context and history. I like that. It allows players to be creative and actually take relatively obscure skills because the context allowed the skill not to be a potential total waste.

For my many years as a player in Rolemaster (I own a tattered, stained copy of the original Arms Law) and Chaosium games, I was always frustrated that there were all these interesting skills available that I wanted to take - but knew that the odds of any single skill proving useful was practically zero. Still, I would waste a few points here and there on obscure skills and then go through stupid gyrations to try and work the skill into the game.

Instead, this way - during the adventure, the odds of SOME obscure skill being useful is actually quite high. And so players have an incentive to take them when its useful or even critical. Its a nice way to give a character extra color without having been penalized for trying to do so up front. Plus, adventuring teams "balance" themselves out over time without having to do careful planning four and five levels in advance.

Its also a great boon to the GM. Purchased modules can be run practically "as is". A particular skill or spell is critical? Players don't have that skill or spell? No problem. Just spend the DPs, keep going. Self-made modules can be created the way they "should be" instead of trying to make sure the team's skill mix will work. Before I came up with this idea, I would provide an NPC with the critical skill if necessary - but that's kind of like playing solitaire RPG... And mind you, I don't make suggestions or tell the players what skill to take on the fly - they have to do that thinking for themselves.

It also works for NPCs (friend and foe). The GM can pick a NPC level and profession, allocate how many ranks the NPC would have (although typically I start the NPC with 25% or more ranks allocated to endurance, perception and resistance skills and 25% on their "basic" combat package just so I have an adequate feel for the character). And then select other skills and spells on the fly. The players don't feel cheated because they can do the same thing themselves. Plus, the hour you spent creating a sophisticated, interesting NPC background isn't totally spoiled by the fact you forget to give them Arcane Lore Demons like you intended. More fun, less preparation. This is important when you use Oatmeal for Brains.

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Offline Kenstrel

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2007, 03:51:24 AM »
Very good ! You win an Idea Point !

That is not insane, it's a very good House Rule to change the way we (me and my players) play RPG. I didn't say we will use it in each HARP campaign, but that can push my players to be more Hero?c in our actual campaign, that give a tool (a game tool) for them to be more active in their actions, and it's a better house rule that mine : i give fate points freely, in each level up.

I like this and i will try to propose this rule to my players (if we ever play again  ;D ). I know that most of my players will enjoy it (cause that is fun and interresting for our campaign) but some of my players will find it strange cause they are dinosaur rpg players and that hurt how they see logical in RPG... but i don't care, i like to shake old rolplayers habit  :evil2:



EDIT : no attack from me about dinosaur roleplayers, I am an old roleplayer with with old (and dinosaur) habit  :D
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 04:11:31 AM by Kenstrel »
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Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2007, 07:21:21 AM »
Good thing you posted that edit... I was about to get "offended" by being called an old dinosaur...
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Offline Thos

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2007, 03:48:25 PM »
That is a VERY interesting way to deal with DPs and leveling up, Jurasketu! I would never have thought about doing anything like that before. I'm tempted to give it a try someday... Idea point for you!
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Offline Blakkrall

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Re: Skills, Ranks, Levels
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2007, 12:41:54 AM »
One more idea point. I do really like people who break free from rules.  ;)
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