Topic: Naguzi and Tough Hide - a Big Mistake?

[jasonbrisbane]

Hello,

All of my players want to play nagazi - because they are a different race than others they have played. I dont have a problem with that. Several of them want to use Martial Law for the Combat tables - they are more deadlier and dont have any problem with the increase chances of dying.

The problem comes up when using talking about the Naguzi and their Tough Hide (Minor) racial ability. This gives them a +20DB - the same as Stoneskin/Steelskin base spell. Now as a player they can buy soft leather, 6 ranks in Steel/Stoneskin (assuming correctly class) and be a Nagazi. For NO penalty they have +60DB.

This seems to be a big flaw to me and against the ideas that HARP has developed around. The bonuses come from a variety of sources, and this is before anyone develops Shield Training and picks up a shield!!! 

Now the problem gets bigger when you figure in the adjusted Martial Law rules - No Armour = =+10 hits, +1 bleeder, stun, etc. Plate armour = -10 hits/crit, less bleeders and stun because the armour soaks the damage.

The Skin Spells and Armour count as padding so does this mean they have the +60 armour bonus and take damage as per the Chain modifier in Martial Law? What if they decide to wear Chain? Does this now become the same as FullPlate? What about when they wear Full Plate+Spell+Tough Hide+Shield+whatever else? 

How does the Martial Law combat Critical modifiers count when dealing with Tough Hide and Physical Armour?

Does the bonuses for Spells count too, since the Spell Steelskin is hardening your skin the same way that Tough Hide, or Soft leather does? 

Now a method of looking at it might be to say that Tough Hide cannot stack with soft leather. But Rigid Leather is essentially this, isnt it? Chain is supposed to be chain with a backing of leather that it is woven/sewen onto so how does the armour NOT stack? 
Does the stacking armour issues mean that the person has a +60Db but soft leather Martial Law penalty? Does the toughest penalty apply in terms of Critical Modifiers? 

EG If Sean of the Dead has Tough Skin (Minor) (+20DB) and has an Active Spell of Steelskin (+20DB) and wears Chain Armour (+60DB) then he gains the +100DB, but any critical he receives is modified as per Chain Armour as that is the toughest armour he has.

But if you wear Tough Hide(Minor), Steelskin (+20DB) and Soft leahrer, then you have three bonsues to armour, so why DONT they stack, giving all the benefits of +60 Chain??? 

Can someone please explai this to me and provide a definitive answer for the HARP rules in Cyradon?

(and yes, I have thought of the rule: Rocks Fall, Everyone dies!    )

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

1) Your players are all wanting to min/max the system.  Keep this in mind..

2) Since Nagazi already have tough skin, and since the Steelskin spell basically toughens skin, you could rule that the spell has no effect upon the Nagazi until the bonus is above +20...

3) The wearing of any sort of armor is going to have an adverse effect on the casting of spells (i.e. it will cost more PP and require more skill ranks). Armor DOES have a casting penalty.

4) Tough skin and Steelskin are not armor, thus when using the Martial Law tables, these both count as not wearing armor at all.

5) Nagazi are a civilized race, and are not likely to wear armor often. And even when they do, they will take the natural protectiveness of their skin into account and trust it. This means that in those rare times that they do wear armor, they are most likely going to wear only helm, bracers and either shirt or cuirass (my bet is on cuirass) (HARP Armor by the piece, page 89 of core rule book), not full suits.

6) They all want to be Warrior Mages? Okay, what sort of campaign are you running? Personally, for a group just being introduced to Cyradon, I would limit the playable races, for the majority of the group, to those from Anias. This allows you to have a group of people with a reason to explore their new world to find out what is out there. If they are all playing Nagazi, that means that some of them will already have the knowledge about the world around them. IMO, it would be quite alright to limit first time characters to those from Anias, at least until they have played through a number of adventures.

7) If you are using the "Grayson forms adventuring teams for exploration" premise, then while he will accept some of the Cyradon races into the teams, he won't actually form a full team from such.

Grayson and his people will not allow more than one or 2 non-Anias people on any of the Cyradon Teams.

9) Grayson and his people are, at the compact signing, given rulership over all of the Devastation. (The Restored Lands, specifically, but the Arali doubt that the humans can restore any more of it, so they gave them all of the Devastation in a gesture (which they will later regret mightily).

10) Being a very civilized and lawful people, the Nagazi would not go exploring without the permission of those who "own" the land, and this means that they would have to ask Grayson, if they wanted to mess aroun within the Devastation or Restored Lands, then that means getting permission from Grayson, and he will say no, unless they are willing to join human teams (thus busting up their "all-Nagazi" team.

11) Nagazi leaders will also respect what they give the humans. This means that they will require all Nagazi who wish to go exploring in the Devastation and Restored Lands, to report to Belynar, and join with Grayson's teams (this being part of the deal made in the Compact that all of the races signed). To do otherwise would make them criminals in the eyes of the Nagazi, and thus no Nagazi would there-after  be criminals in Nagazi society.

That should give you a bit of ammunition...

[asdohol]

1) No were not. It's more a case of having a racial ability that is a bonus as opposed to playing a human in armour

2) Agreed though it had not yet been discussed at the game

3) Fully aware of that and certainly don't have a problem with that

4) Makes sense

5) p82 Cyradon "In times of battle, they will often augment the natural toughness of their own hide with leather scale armour (rigid leather) or light chain." That passage kind of suggests otherwise. Mind you, wearing armour by the piece will keep the PP cost down

6) There is only 1 Warrior Mage, a Monk (who is already self centred and a meanie),  a Ranger and a Shadow blade. The ranger is not a Nagazi.

7) Why not? Grayson will need Belynar cleared as soon as possible, so he should be happy with any group that volunteers to help.  Then again given the initial language barrier, a refugee is highly recommended as part of the group.

9) Figured as much

10) Possibly, but if as a team we do well in the city he will most likely grant permission for the lands outside

11) None of us (players) will have any issue with that decree from the leaders, actually that would kind of been the point in playing in Cyradon, all those possibilities within the devastation

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

1) No were not. It's more a case of having a racial ability that is a bonus as opposed to playing a human in armour

Please note that my comments are and were colored solely by the information that Jason provided in the first post. From the description he gave, it DID indeed sound as he had a group of players trying to min/max the system. All Nagazi, All with Steelskin (a Warrior Mage spell), etc...

Going back an rereading it, after reading your post, I can see that perhaps I may have made some presumptions based on the overall tones of his post that were incorrect. My apologies if those were incorrect.

2) Agreed though it had not yet been discussed at the game

Any rules changes should always be discussed and the group should at least know about any changes to the core rules. I have stated something along this line many times, so I wasn't telling Jason to exclude you guys from such a decision. 

3) Fully aware of that and certainly don't have a problem with that

Ahh... But I was reminding Jason.    Besides, I was also under the impression that all the Nagazi were Warrior Mages....

4) Makes sense

It should.  That was the official ruling given on it when Martial Law first cam out...

5) p82 Cyradon "In times of battle, they will often augment the natural toughness of their own hide with leather scale armour (rigid leather) or light chain." That passage kind of suggests otherwise. Mind you, wearing armour by the piece will keep the PP cost down

Light Chain = not full chain = shirt or cuirass most likely. That was my thought process. I then extended it down  into the reinforced leather category as well.

Also, as I was attempting to explain, the Nagazi are intelligent, they will realize that they when they have to don armor it is to protect vital spots more than anything else. They know that their skin is tougher than most of the other races that they will encounter.

Also remember that I was talking about the general mind-set and attitude of the race. Individuals may vary from that norm quite easily.

6) There is only 1 Warrior Mage, a Monk (who is already self centred and a meanie),  a Ranger and a Shadow blade. The ranger is not a Nagazi.

Again, a mistake on my part based upon how Jason phrased his initial post... 

7) Why not? Grayson will need Belynar cleared as soon as possible, so he should be happy with any group that volunteers to help.  Then again given the initial language barrier, a refugee is highly recommended as part of the group.

Look at it from Grayson's point of view. He has spent the last several years fighting a war, only to barely escape with both his life and the life of those in his charge. Since arriving, he has been outright threatened Arali and defeated an attempt by the Desnians to take control of them.

He is not going to be fully trustful of ANY of the Cyradon races, not this soon after arriving. He will want one of his people in charge of any group. And he is going to want more of his people on teams than outsiders..

Of course, there could be exceptions, but again, I was describing general attitudes overall...

9) Figured as much

 

10) Possibly, but if as a team we do well in the city he will most likely grant permission for the lands outside

That is a possibility...

11) None of us (players) will have any issue with that decree from the leaders, actually that would kind of been the point in playing in Cyradon, all those possibilities within the devastation

 

[yammahoper]

So...if I set up a secret shop in the basement of a building on Fleet Street were we bring Naguzi skins, could we make some armor that provides a nice superior bonus?  Hmm...guess I'm gonna have to find me a demon barber

lynn

[asdohol]

I wonder if he will take skins from others.  I could do with a new cloak, what species are you yammahoper so I know what bonuses I get.

Rasyr, I was just trying to elaborate on what jason had said and you're posts will be helpful, very, 

Also, as I was attempting to explain, the Nagazi are intelligent, they will realize that they when they have to don armor it is to protect vital spots more than anything else. They know that their skin is tougher than most of the other races that they will encounter.

so given this statement Nagazi hide and partial armour will stack or should, yes?

We Nagazi are just going to have to prove that we are trustworthy as oppossed to those pointy eared, self centred things 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Yes, the armor stacks...

Note that only the pointy eared woodsy things that came with the round eared thingys are considered trustworthy by the round-eared things.

The pointy eared, self centered things native to Cyradon are trusted much less than the Nagazi are....

[asdohol]

For the Nagazi any pointed ear thingy is untrustworthy, for that matter so might the round eared thingys

Just out of curiosity if a char wore 3 suits of hard leather each fitted one over the other, would that be three separate armour skills (each suit would be of a slightly increasing size) or can u get away with one skill. And yes I am aware that all penalties will stack.

Think of it, 10 suits of soft leather, no MP, 200db, just forget about spellcasting

NOW THAT'S MIN/MAX

[janpmueller]

10 suits of soft leather, no MP, 200db - NOW THAT'S MIN/MAX

Yeah, no Maneuver Penalty, but probably in the same way a rock has no MP.
Mr 10 soft leather: "Allright, I do nothing and just sit here"
GM: "Okay, medium maneuver, no penalty"



Jan

[jasonbrisbane]

Hello,

Thanks Rasyr! We will discuss the answers in my next game.
FYI: Asdohol is a player in my game - I've bought him every book (with my CC) in hardcover (he's chomping at the bit for those) and most in soft-cover. Oh, and the Limited editon too.... 


The three or ten suits of soft leather and armour stacking was discussed as  a furthering of trying to understand the Nagazi / leather / spells thing. Mostly I think they are trying to understand the rules as they wil all be GM'ing when my first child is born in 3 weeks - taking turns in one offs or short campaigns, etc - I wanted to introduce them to Cyradon first to get the feel of the setting. (Mid way through Adventure one).
The System they are familiar with as I used HARP for my other campaign.

My understanding from Martial Law was that the "armour mods" was because the Physical armour is harder to penetrate with weapons and so the wearer will take physically less damage. Thus no armour increases the damage on the crit table and plate reduces the damage as per the crit table. Is this a wrong assumption?

As I see it, the spell steelskin/stoneskin hardens your skin physically (albeit for a limited time), the same way  the Tough Hide (Minor) does. So it wont stack with the same bonus but could be treated as having soft leather armour, not No armour... And all while your not actually wearing any armour at all.

Can you please help me understand how the crit modifications work so I can *explain it to my players??


NB: * = rub it in my players faces - "so there!"

(Sorry Asdohol!)

Regards,
Jason Brisbane
HARP GM needing more help than I thought...

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

multiple suits of armor -- the minute you start stacking non-integral armor, you would begin accumulating maneuver Penalties (in addition to those the armor already entails). Each suit would add a bigger penalty (i.e. -10 for first suit, -20 for second, -30 for third, etc.. - so 3 suits would give you a non-reduce-able -60 MP). Then I would add in the weight of all but the first suit as an encumbrance penalty as well.

My understanding from Martial Law was that the "armour mods" was because the Physical armour is harder to penetrate with weapons and so the wearer will take physically less damage. Thus no armour increases the damage on the crit table and plate reduces the damage as per the crit table. Is this a wrong assumption?

As I see it, the spell steelskin/stoneskin hardens your skin physically (albeit for a limited time), the same way  the Tough Hide (Minor) does. So it wont stack with the same bonus but could be treated as having soft leather armour, not No armour... And all while your not actually wearing any armour at all.

Can you please help me understand how the crit modifications work so I can *explain it to my players??

Basically, the ML system presumes (i.e. deals damage as if) you are wearing Reinforced Leather of some type. The Armor adjustments reflect the damage absorbing capabilities of the armor, not their stopping power (i.e. their DB adjustment).

Natural armor and spells have the stopping power component (i.e. DB) for this system, but not the damage absorption capabilities, so they are treated as not existing (i.e. no armor) for the purpose of this adjustment.

[jasonbrisbane]

Basically, the ML system presumes (i.e. deals damage as if) you are wearing Reinforced Leather of some type. The Armor adjustments reflect the damage absorbing capabilities of the armor, not their stopping power (i.e. their DB adjustment).

Natural armor and spells have the stopping power component (i.e. DB) for this system, but not the damage absorption capabilities, so they are treated as not existing (i.e. no armor) for the purpose of this adjustment.

AAH! Now That explains it all!
 

Thank you for your insight and explanation. Its always good to be able to come back to the definitive source!

Now I am better equipped to control my players!
 

Regards,
Jason Brisbane

[asdohol]

That's even more penalties than I was expecting. But yeah that helps a lot

Jason yeah right 

[mocking bird]

So...if I set up a secret shop in the basement of a building on Fleet Street were we bring Naguzi skins, could we make some armor that provides a nice superior bonus?  Hmm...guess I'm gonna have to find me a demon barber

lynn

Earthdawn has a trollskin armor that is quite similar to this.  Oddly enough trolls don't really like seeing people wearing it.

Natural armor and spells have the stopping power component (i.e. DB) for this system, but not the damage absorption capabilities, so they are treated as not existing (i.e. no armor) for the purpose of this adjustment.

Wasn't there something in the past where the various tough hides did equate to armor for ML damage adjustments?  Major +60 = plate for example.

Aha - http://www.ironcrown.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5272&SearchTerms=tough,hide

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Hey... I am allowed to change my mind...   

No, seriously, having monster hide equate to no armor does work better overall...

[allenrmaher]

Because the animal skin armours in ML are all based on RL, for most monsters with hide bonuses I use SL or RL for base... rather than a direct correlation with DB, since DB is also the fit and form of the armour and skin has that down.

Tough Hide Minor.... SL
Tough Hide Major.... RL
Tough Hide Major.... Ch at best RL worst... depends on whether the animal is the tank type (beetle, dragon)

[jasonbrisbane]

Hi again,

One of my players pointed out how anyone creating a character would be silly to play anything BUT a Nagazi and here is his reasoning:

- They are intelligent, more so than the elves, who tend to resent them for it (as per the Cyradon book)
- There is no restriction on professions or any other "downside".
- They get a +20 Tough Hide Bonus to DB.
- They, with this +20 DB bonus, have NO penalty to cast spells, unlike a Human or elf wearing Soft leather. This effectively gives them a Bonus 2 Ranks in spells (and the DP costs of those Spells) since they do not need to  boost the spell cost to negate any armour as an Elf/Human would need to do.
- There is a Talent (I forget the name)  that costs 30 DP that gives a bonus to DB that isnt as powerful as the Tough Hide.
- A Nagazi can still purchase the other talents that humans and elves and others can buy.


With those in mind it does seem that the Nagazi is a little lop-sided compared to the other races - thee is no game-balance.

I agree that the Tough Hide counts as No armour for ML tables - any impact "absorbed" bny the armour is still part of your skin so the skin doesnt count as armour since your body has still absorbed the damage.

With the above in mind, what would others do to balance up the Nagazi?

I have a few ideas:
Nagazi find it difficult to draw upon the powers of magic and to cast thru their own skin, requiring them to expend two extra ranks per spell (as if they were wearing Soft Leather.
(While that may seem a little tough, they still get the +20DB - they just dont get the extra Spell casting ability through "armour".) This would also have the benefit of having more fighter types than Spellcasters. The above would also have a limitation on Cantrips - nagazi only gain Cantrips from Rank Three plus (as the first two are required to cast through their skin.

Any comments or other ideas to even the character playing field?

[Thom @ ICE]

Throughout the Cyradon book it also refers to Nagazi as being extremely peaceful - and the reference to their army is simply defensive.

The book does not say they are more intelligent (at least not what I found) - it says that they are more civilized.  Big difference.

For mages - the Nagazi: Zirhus tradition should most likely apply. This requires them to use a wand in casting spells.

As for the rest - if you find them imbalanced then there likely is an imbalance.  I am surprised you did not point out their total stat bonus is +11 compared to:
Human +8
Gryx +9
Halfling +9 (not in Cyradon)

For the talents (racial abilities) -
Humans get Professional Adaptability (20DP), Bonus Skill Ranks (10DP), Skill Specialization (10DP) = 40 DP
Gryx get Lightning Reflexes (10 DP), Dense Musculature (25 DP), and Night Vision (25 DP) = 60 DP
Arali get Spirit Sense (15 DP), Night Vision (25 DP), Internal Stability (10 DP) = 50 DP

Nagazi get Tough Hide (minor)  (30 DP est), Night Vision (25 DP), and Natural Weapons (Claws) (10  DP est.) = 65 DP

They get the highest combined stat bonus, the most powerful racial abilities, and their one drawback is that they are generally peaceful. It does also state that if they or their families are threatened they will use wrathful violence.

Effectively - Nagazi are Lizardmen with greater civility.  Interesting thing is... Lizardmen are listed in HARP as a 4th level monster.  Yes - there is an imbalance here compared to other races.  Effectively HARP does not maintain equal balance between races.

Even look at standard HARP -  Elves vs. Dwarves - Stat Modifiers are both +11
Enhanced Senses (10 DP)
Quiet Stride (20 DP)
Night Vision (25 DP)

Dark Vision Greater (30 DP)
Dense Musculature (25 DP)
Stone Sense (15 DP?)

Elves get 55 DP in their racial abilities, while Dwarves get 55 before Stone Sense is even considered.
When the basic races in the core book are not mathematically balanced it tells me that the game designers are looking beyond min/max numbers and making the races fit the expectation regardless.

In other words - yes, the Nagazi are imbalanced and have greater game bonuses - but considering who they are in the world of Cyradon - they should.   If you bothers you, feel free to change it.

By the way - The talent you are thinking of is Instinctive defense. +20 to DB if attack is known - +10 if not. Cost 30 DP.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

As Chosen DM pointed out, they are more civilized, not more intelligent... (i.e. think Italian Nobles in the height of the renaissance period versus French and English Nobles of the same period - the French, while civilized, were still nearly barbarians in comparison

Also, they are a very religious race, with the 7 Sages permeating most every aspect of their life while also not dominating it, except for a small few. Read pages 109-110 carefully. These 7 deities do influence every aspect of Nagazi life.

Also read the Nagazi section on page 120 and then the Zirvak Alumni on page 123 for a sample House of magic.

These two sections means several things....

Magic cast by a Nagazi is NOT subtle or sneaky. The tip of the wand glows, and casting without one's wand gives a minus. (broken wand? oops! -10 until you can return home to fashion a new one from the proper materials located in the stores of the Academy you graduated from).

Academy obligations will also be part of the system....

Also, as Chosen DM pointed out regarding the nature of the Nagazi, they will not go looking for trouble. They will defend themselves, but they will try to reason or talk their way out of it first. After all, that IS the civilized method of resolving problems. Fighting is a last resort tactic to the Nagazi.

And don't forget the part about Neith in the 7 Sages, how mis-use of magic can have a magic user stripped of their magic (and yes, the Nagazi elders DO know rituals to do that, on both a temporary and/or permanent basis). And since it is a ritual, sympathetic magic can be used to affect mages who aren't even present. The teaching of magic is so orderly and constrained for very specific reasons - Mages and other magic users can get a swelled ego, and thus the elders have a way of dealing with that, and they do keep tabs, especially on those away from home, to make sure that they do not succumb to weakness or vanity.

So, yes, while Nagazi may be slightly better stat-wise, they are balanced out via their roleplaying limitations predilections.

Oh, and regarding Instinctive Defense, I would not allow that for any character with an innate DB bonus or who wears armor on a regular basis. The reasoning being that armor (and tough skin) create a psychological frame of mind that has the character slightly less aware of their actual surroundings, they subconsciously rely more or the armor than on their own sense and instincts.

And also, the more civilized you are, the less likely you are to be in tune with your instinctual side...

Remember, as GM, you have final say on the Talents that may be purchased. If you don't think a race should have a given talent, then it is quite alright to rule in that manner, just let players know in advance..

[asdohol]

Would a Nagazi warrior mage use a wand as a focus or his weapon?

I'll have to remember to try and negotiate with the rats before we get eaten.
Last Sat night 1 in every 3 rolls was not a fumble, so fighting the rats was fun, climbing the walls was worse.