Topic: Question about "casting level" from items

[MisterK]

The standard level of spell (for parameters and resistance purposes) when the spell is cast from an item (embedded spell) is the level of the spell in the spell list.

Which I find counter-intuitive. Why is it not the level of the caster who embedded it in the item in the first place ?

[rdanhenry]

As a practical matter, the "level of casting equals level of spell" answers the question for you, whereas "level of casting equals the level of the caster" requires the GM to answer a further question. The given rule is less work for the GM.

In world, it is not too crazy to assume that usually the lowest level caster who can cast the spell reliably (i.e., a caster of the spell's level) will be casting the spell for the enchantment, because higher level casters are going to be more expensive. Also, "the caster of the embedded spell" may not actually define an individual. The spell must be cast for the enchantment every day, but there is no rule that say the same person must cast the spell each time.

[jdale]

For the GM, you can always create items that cast at a higher level if you wish. In RMU, those items are created e.g. by casting Increase Power (on Enchantment Mastery) as part of the enchantment process; each use of Increase Power increases the spell level by 5.

[Jengada]

When the party pays to have an item created, I always make the item cast at the level of the alchemist they hire. I usually have that alchemist detailed out as an NPC by that point, so it's easy to figure.

For items they pick up from other sources (parties killed, etc.) I go with the level of the highest level spell it would take to make that item (the Imbed, Daily, or whatever). That boosts those a bit above the level of the imbedded spell.

This means some tracking what level a given item casts at, but the agreement is that the burden is on the party. They have to remind me that the item was custom made, or else the item will cast at a lower level.

[Spectre771]

The standard level of spell (for parameters and resistance purposes) when the spell is cast from an item (embedded spell) is the level of the spell in the spell list.

Which I find counter-intuitive. Why is it not the level of the caster who embedded it in the item in the first place ?

A 10th level mage could embed a level 1 Light spell into a candle so he never has to worry about working in the dark.  He may need to be 10th level to create/embed spells.  Alchemy Companion has much more info on that as does Spell User Companion.

Perhaps the spell in need only goes to 5th level in the spell lists like Summon Lesser Undead II.

During creation process, lower level spells require fewer PPs and that is also a factor when the item has x# of charges.

[MisterK]

My problem with the RAW is that, if I'm a level 20 mage and I want to create a device that teleports a (willing) person up to 200 miles away, I can't. I can either have one that teleports a person up to 100 miles away - a level 10 spell, or have one that teleports up to 20 persons up to 200 miles away - a level 20 spell. Even though I can teleport a person up to 200 miles away with a level 10 spell.

I don't think it's right.

[Spectre771]

My problem with the RAW is that, if I'm a level 20 mage and I want to create a device that teleports a (willing) person up to 200 miles away, I can't. I can either have one that teleports a person up to 100 miles away - a level 10 spell, or have one that teleports up to 20 persons up to 200 miles away - a level 20 spell. Even though I can teleport a person up to 200 miles away with a level 10 spell.

I don't think it's right.

I'm not sure I follow.

- You are level 20
- You want to cast a spell that sends 1 person 200 miles away
- There is a level 20 spell that lets you send 1-20 people 200 miles away
- Your level 10 spell only teleports up to 100 miles per (as you have written)

... a person up to 100 miles away - a level 10 spell...


 ... Even though I can teleport a person up to 200 miles away with a level 10 spell.

.... isn't that what you wanted?  1 person 200 miles away?  Your level 10 spell can't do that.

[EltonJ]

You could cast a ranging spell before you cast your teleport spell.

[jdale]

As noted, in RMU you would just make an item with your 10th level spell and then also include two castings per day of Increase Power, and you'd get that spell cast at 20th level for the desired range.

In RMSS/RMFRP Treasure Law, the level spells are cast at is the level of the item, not the level of the spell. Page 40, section 8.1. So it wouldn't make sense to boost that.

[MisterK]

OK, I've checked on the various sources throughout the ages of RM, and
- in RM2 (Alchemy Companion), there were four options : casting level = level of wielder; casting level = level of creator; casting level = highest level of embedded spell + 1/2 (sum of levels of other embedded spells); casting level = higher of 1 and 3.
- in RMSS, as JDale indicated : casting level = highest level of spell used in item creation (which is basically the minimum level for the item creator).
- in RMU, as JDale indicated : casting level = spell level, modified upwards if the item maker also casts Increase Power.

The rule is clear(er), but I have to ask : what is the design reason behind the various changes ?

[More generally, I think RMU, as the latest incarnation of the RM rules, would have benefited from design notes so that readers could learn the rationale behind the rules and how they were balanced. A number of published games include those design notes and they are usually more interesting than the rules themselves].

[jdale]

rdanhenry is the designer here, so I would refer you to his post earlier in this thread.

We've had literally 10 years of open playtest discussion so I think we felt like that horse got beat pretty thoroughly. But I'm happy to field questions about intent and purpose where I can if people are interested.