Topic: Did I allow a broken build for a paladin?

[Jengada]

Hi-
I posted earlier about armor getting in the way of martial arts, but I'm going to lay out more of the character build that triggered the question. The player is open to adjustment of his 1st level character, but I would welcome your thoughts on ways this build may get to be a problem.

The character is a paladin of a goddess of battle. The player wanted to have quarterstaff and martial arts sweep skills, so he bought ranks in those as well as ranks in AT9, rigid leather breastplate. The earlier post (http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=18503.0) addressed using sweeps while armored, so that's not the primary area of interest here. I cannot find anything anywhere that says a martial artist must have empty hands, or both hands and both feet, available to use the skill. The attack is unarmed (unless using a kata) but there's nothing preventing a martial artist from holding a dagger while they punch, or a sword, or a shield - except for the increasing burden on common sense.
In a round he uses sweeps, he cannot parry since he has no weapon. So sweeping definitely puts him in some jeopardy but it seems he could still be holding his staff and strike with it next round including parrying. Adrenal defense is not an issue - that explicitly states that you cannot be in armor or have any large object in your hands.

Interested in both rational points and rule-based arguments.

[Hurin]

Yes, i don't see any reason why you couldn't punch one round with your right hand while holding a staff or shield with your left. If you wanted to attack with the staff the next round, you would have to transfer it to your right hand or to a double grip the next round, or suffer the penalty for off-hand use.

[jdale]

I'm not seeing a balance problem here, since he isn't getting multiple attacks out of the deal, and quarterstaff is not the best weapon. Sweeps provides an advantage against heavily armored targets, but that's paid for in DP. Thematically, the staff could be used as part of the sweep attack. Personally, I would allow parrying too (which would reduce OB as normal).

[Peter R]

In RMC there is no requirement to have a weapon to parry. So parrying should be fine.

[Jengada]

In RMC there is no requirement to have a weapon to parry. So parrying should be fine.

That would be a change from RM2 (I don't have the RMC books.) RM2 section 4.3 says ""He must have a shield, suitable terrain, or Melee weapon. Some weapons may only be used to parry with a certain percentage of the wielder's OB."
I always figured that martial artists' equivalent to parrying was their Adrenal Defense bonus, which almost no other profession is going to have. Allowing a monk to parry with their strikes OB and have AD, too, would seem to really imbalance things.

This raises a thread tangent, but I've also been looking for anything that says whether a combatant can parry attacks aimed at someone next to them. The same section of AL&CL that I cited above never says the attack being parried must be directed at the one parrying. (I HATE arguments that revert to "as written" so I'm thinking more on actual combat arguments, I would allow some parrying but at a penalty to the OB that can be applied.)

[Peter R]

This is from the RMC Arms Law

2.2 DEFENSIVE BONUS The sum of all bonuses and penalties that affect the defender’s susceptibility to being hit and damaged in combat is called the Defensive Bonus (DB). This number is subtracted from the attacker’s combat roll.The defender’s DB is composed of bonuses for superior/inferior armor, quickness, position and cover, and special items. A defender may also parry (i.e. dodge, block and deflect.) incoming attacks by forgoing aportion of their own attack ability. The Defensive Modification Chart summarizes the factors that affect a defender’s DB.

So RMC has a slightly different wording than RM2.

[Sable Wyvern]

I've always allowed parrying with martial arts attacks. I'd presume that the RM2 wording simply failed to consider these attack forms.

In any event, I see nothing at all unbalancing or unreasonable about switching back and forth between sweep and quarterstaff attacks from round to round, as long as the proper declarations are made and correct OBs are being used.

[Malim]

Sweeps and Quater staff... why not just battleaxe?!

[Jengada]

I've always allowed parrying with martial arts attacks. I'd presume that the RM2 wording simply failed to consider these attack forms.

In any event, I see nothing at all unbalancing or unreasonable about switching back and forth between sweep and quarterstaff attacks from round to round, as long as the proper declarations are made and correct OBs are being used.

I wondered about the wording, too. But it very specifically states "Melee weapon" as if to distinguish it from Missile, and presumably martial arts. Plus, that same exact wording appears in RMSR. That said, I think Martial Arts Companion is one of the most useful non-core books in the system because it very carefully and consistently lays out a martial arts structure that beats the canon system any day. It has a section (14.3.1) that explicitly says martial artists "can parry attacks from weapons without penalty." So at that point, I would say, the ambiguity remained. What's in RMU, anyone familiar with those rules?
(And I still worry that allowing martial artists both Adrenal Defense and parrying will make them un-hitable. Though they still can't wear armor with AD...hmmm.)

[Jengada]

Sweeps and Quater staff... why not just battleaxe?!

For one, iron is expensive in this part of my world. For another, Sweeps is the only chart that gets easier to crit someone in heavier armor. So a sweeps+weapon combo gives a balance of armored vs unarmored strength. The party already has a monk with really high sweeping ability, he's their lawn-mower. He goes in and trips and flips everyone, then the armed fighters follow him with weapons and beat on the unbalanced or prone targets.

[jdale]

For RMU, there are some situations in which your ability to parry is restricted, e.g. an invisible or incorporeal foe. In these cases, you only get half the benefit of parrying. This applies to unarmed combatants "parrying against someone with a weapon, unless the unarmed combatant has an item or armor with which to parry (e.g., bracers, small shield, or a large metal mug)."

Regarding the question of who you can parry, RMSS was very clear you can only parry someone you are attacking. RMU will allow you to split your parry against any number of foes. I think the latter is more realistic.

[Lorgalis]

Posted by: Peter R
« on: March 03, 2018, 01:50:18 AM » Insert Quote
In RMC there is no requirement to have a weapon to parry. So parrying should be fine.

This is from RMC Arms Law pg. 15:

• They must also have a shield,
suitable terrain, or a Melee weapon to
get full benefit of parry. Some weapons
may only be used to parry with a certain
percentage of the wielder’s OB.

Pg. 19/20:
Engaging in combat without weapons
falls under “unarmed” combat. Since attempting
to stop a weapon with your body is
essentially the same as being struck, unarmed
combatants have limits to how they can parry.
To reflect this difficulty, any OB used to parry
a weapon is cut in half. (So 50 points of
unarmed OB used to parry a weapon would
only grant 25 points of DB.). This does not
apply against other unarmed attackers.

Pg. 20:
If the unarmed attacker is holding an
object or wearing armor that can be used to
deflect weapons, then they can parry normally
without penalty. The GM must decide
if the object or armor is suitable. As a rule of
thumb, it should either be mobile enough
to put into the way of a blow, like a buckler,
arm armor or a stool, or it should be large
enough to hide behind, like a shield or the
shell of a creature like a turtle. (The object
need not be rigid, a cloak wrapped around
your arm would do against a light weapon.)

[Majyk]

Good get, Lorgalis.
I remember there being a 50% Parry limit with MA, too, but maybe only spelled out in RMC vs RM2.

That said, as OP notes they are into common sense, too.

I’d allow 50% vs unfettered MA parrying due to the unforgiving nature of not being able to use fleshy bits to truly intercept a dangerous melee weapon, unlike something else that is held and can be used to “take the hit”.
Sure, arguments for blocking/deflecting other body parts holding the dangerous weapon can be made, but even highly trained(IRL) Masters tell their students to RUN when facing a weapon...
 

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Always considered that a  character using a proportion of their "Sweeps & Throws"  MA skill OB to parry is simply blocking the movement of the opponents weapon by targeting the block against an arm (or hand) of the opponent... it shouldn't be seen as an attempt the put a limb directly in harms way of the weapon... unless the character was trying to disarm or break the weapon, both of which are attacks.

Doing so unarmed without such training should incur some sort of penalty though, since Striking MA OB is primarily offensive.

[Majyk]

Always considered that a  character using a proportion of their "Sweeps & Throws"  MA skill OB to parry is simply blocking the movement of the opponents weapon by targeting the block against an arm (or hand) of the opponent... it shouldn't be seen as an attempt the put a limb directly in harms way of the weapon...

Correct. 
That is what I was saying also(poorly) but my reasoning for the 50% max swap into DB is that a Martial Artist expert will always have to worry about getting the block/deflection of an enemy’s wrist/non-weapon body part, perfectly, vs someone with an actual weapon.
The “armed” parrier just has to shrug if his weapon hits the flesh of his foe during a parry.
The MArtist’s “weapon” used to parry is their actual body taking damage vs not in the case of using anything but flesh for theirs on not being more careful and exacting...

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

It's the neverending problem with how RM defines "parrying" (defined in section 4.3, p12, of AL&CL as "A combatant may wish to sacrifice some or all of his Offensive Bonus (OB) with the weapon he is presently using, in order to increase his DB (see Section 4.4). Such an action is called parrying, though it may be thought of in many combat situation as dodging"), where it's sometimes akin to dodging (so no physical contact with the opponent's weapon is necessary) and other times to actually blocking an attack (so a physical contact is necessary).

Rules are also unclear on whether an unarmed martial artist is considered armed in regards to parrying options. Whilst the rules mention that an individual "must also have a shield, suitable terrain, or a melee weapon to get full benefit of parry", section 13.3.1 of the Ch&CL, p81, has an example that mentions Vemtar (in the "multiple attacks against the same foe" paragraph p82) and says that "he may use part of his OB to parry" which implies that, yes, a martial artist may "parry", even when unarmed (as the weapon kata rule only comes after this paragraph.)

Probably something on which RMU should be clear...

[Majyk]

Yeah, here’s hoping RMU is amazingly awesome.  If not, our hardcore community will make it so <3

For parrying, I have always allowed MA’s to be considered armed, persé.
It just wasn’t spelled out better until RMC annotated it and quantified parrying using MA skills.

Now, here’s a good question you might get multiple answers on:
What MA bonus do you allow to be used for parrying regarding Rank 1-4?
In most cases, MA skill users have cascading boni for R1-4(e.g. Rank 1 = +20, R2 = +15, R3 = +10, R4 = +5)
Adding average Stat boni might be another +10 to +30more.
Do you allow Parries with MA skill to use the R1(larger bonus) or R4(more restricted bonus)?

I think most would say, “whatever MA Rank bonus was used to attack with” for said PC, so this might be a dumb question, but how many players cheat the system in those scenarios(the ba$tard$) and use their R1 Bonus instead, if full parrying!

We don’t ask, during declarations, which Rank is used then that I’ve seen.

Either way, use and abuse whatever rule(50% max Parry a la RMC or not) you like that fits for you and your group.  As long as everyone is abiding by it and it is still fun, you can’t go wrong.

[jdale]

RMU requires that you have something to parry with, a weapon, armor (e.g. bracers), etc, when parrying against a foe with a weapon. Otherwise your parry DB is halved. On the other side of things, you're not prohibited from wearing armor when using adrenal defense, but the DB is reduced by any encumbrance/armor penalties. So wearing a pair of bracers is often going to be fine (especially light ones), but a full suit of heavy armor is effectively out of the question.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

What MA bonus do you allow to be used for parrying regarding Rank 1-4?
In most cases, MA skill users have cascading boni for R1-4(e.g. Rank 1 = +20, R2 = +15, R3 = +10, R4 = +5)
Adding average Stat boni might be another +10 to +30more.
Do you allow Parries with MA skill to use the R1(larger bonus) or R4(more restricted bonus)?

I think most would say, “whatever MA Rank bonus was used to attack with” for said PC, so this might be a dumb question, but how many players cheat the system in those scenarios(the ba$tard$) and use their R1 Bonus instead, if full parrying!

Using the R1 bonus seems the right thing. Otherwise, you'd have the weird case where a person who only developed R1 to, say +50, may parry up to 50; he then starts to develop R2 to, say, +10, and suddenly becomes worse at parrying!
The thing IMO is to restrict the attack level to what was used to parry, so if a character has +W in R1, +X in R2, +Y in R3 and +Z in R4, with W >= X >= Y >= Z then:

• If he parries with less than Z, he may perform a R1, R2, R3, or R4 attack,
• If he parries with more than Z but less than Y, he may perform a R1, R2, or R3 attack,
• If he parries with more than Y but less than X, he may perform a R1, or R2 attack,
• If he parries with more than X (but of course less than W), he may perform a R1 attack.