Topic: Shadow World/RM Poll

[Cory Magel]

SW is a high fantasy setting and RM is a low magic system.  The disconnect and disparity in power is frustrating for players

I suspect you're going to get some wild variations on opinions as to whether RM is high or low magic.  I hear that it's high magic more than I hear that it's low magic.  Personally, I find it to be neither - it's just a matter of your groups style and what the GM allows.

[zyax1]

Late to the party as usual.

I love Shadow World but find it difficult to introduce new players to it because the races, cultures and histories are too disjointed to pick up & play.  That is the reality of my gaming now- there's not enough time to immerse yourself in the larger picture of Shadow World. 

Typically, I use a couple of very specific locales and end up having to ignore the larger scale material because otherwise I end up having to dictate history like a prequel to their adventures. So, I use only Jaiman with Norek, Quellebourne, and some customizations in between to make SW fit into a more low-level and less epic story driven game.  Oh, and Xa'ar.  I have cut & paste a history document out of the PDFs I own and give it to players to read...most of them don't because even it is a little long!

To me this is Shadow World- all the rest is in a universe far far away...

One of my great frustrations with SW & RM is that they are seemingly partnered up; but neither one represents the best of each other IMO.  SW is a high fantasy setting and RM is a low magic system.  The disconnect and disparity in power is frustrating for players-

So, basically to run higher scaled games, I have begun using SW with other game systems;  Specifically HERO and D6.

Low magic system? What is a high magic system for you if you think RM is low magic? In our group the only complaints about RM is that its too high on magic and maybe complex and too detailed which ends up in a slow combat system and problem to involve new players. I should mention that I have almost only played RM2 with companions and other add-ons and this makes the high magic game even more so.

[adanost]

RM is a system that can be fitted for low-magic and high-magic. The rules allow for both of them and all the range from one to the other. Each GM can adopt what he finds better for his world and playing-style. After all, even in high-magic worlds (like SW) the regular man doesn't see magic at all. A peasant in Rakhaan will not see much of magic, except maybe some local healer, that can be as well mumbo-jumbo with no real magic. Even in towns magic is not a regular issue.

[Cory Magel]

...and maybe complex and too detailed which ends up in a slow combat system and problem to involve new players. I should mention that I have almost only played RM2 with companions and other add-ons and this makes the high magic game even more so.

Individual character binders and Combat Minion!

From the start with MERP, then RM, we took binders with dry erase sleeves and setup out characters.  That helps with combat speed.  We also have players look up all their own results so the GM isn't doing it all.  Of course, just having players that pay attention during combat is a huge factor in the first place.
1st/2nd pages are character info.
3rd/4th are skills.
5th/6th are combat sheet info and, if needed, experience tracking sheet.
7th/8th (and however many needed two page combos) are weapon or spell attack table and corresponding crit chart.
9th/Etc Then come the spell lists you know.

[egdcltd]

I posted in the Shadow World forum regarding what sort of low-level, everyday magical (like AD&D cantrips) would be commonly seen. A high magic setting should, I think, see a lot of what appear to be minor magics that could have a noticeable cumulative effect.

A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe touches on this.

[Witchking20k]

I suspect you're going to get some wild variations on opinions as to whether RM is high or low magic.  I hear that it's high magic more than I hear that it's low magic.  Personally, I find it to be neither - it's just a matter of your groups style and what the GM allows.

Indeed I will.  But, I am just the messenger.  Most of us have been playing ICE games for a long time and have customized it and house-ruled the areas required for our games.  I guess when I see a request for feedback from an Author I want to give it based on the face-value of how the work reads.  For a new player- Shadow World reads High Magic.  For a new reader Rolemaster reads Low-Magic. 

As note the RM reading like Low-Magic is largely due to the Spell Classes (Type I-III) and lack of "attack" spells.  Lets face it- its a game and you want to be cool right away.

In my opinion the partnering of SW & RM would be well served by an official adaptation of the RM spell casting system to reflect SW.  I think the SW material as written is interesting, and different than any other setting out there- but the aspects of it that make it interesting are largely unavailable to PCs...so, find a way to bridge that gap a little so that players from levels 1-10 can become involved in these interesting aspects that define SW.  My observation is that Magic is a gap that needs to be bridged.

I am not of the opinion that starting at higher levels is a solution. I'm an "its the journey, not the destination" kinda GM...I want players to struggle through the first couple of levels and get a feel for the tone of SW.

Aside from magic, I also mentioned that the multitude of races/cultures is too much to navigate for players, and that I end up pairing the setting down to a bare-bones setting.  I assume that this is a fairly common practice as well; but, felt I should mention it as building a feeling of continuity in games is very important.  I realise that much of the SW material was written under license and so wasn't under Terry's watchful eye...but, it still exists and throws sneaky curve balls for those of use still running games in 2014!  I also think creating a canon list (if it does not already exist) and a GMs guide similar to the players guide would be really helpfull.

[egdcltd]

In my opinion the partnering of SW & RM would be well served by an official adaptation of the RM spell casting system to reflect SW.  I think the SW material as written is interesting, and different than any other setting out there- but the aspects of it that make it interesting are largely unavailable to PCs...so, find a way to bridge that gap a little so that players from levels 1-10 can become involved in these interesting aspects that define SW.  My observation is that Magic is a gap that needs to be bridged.

How would you do this? Would it be simply making the spell names less utterly boring, or some other way?

[Witchking20k]

I think adapting spell casting should up to the Author- as its basically trying to make sure that the system is aligned with his vision of how magic works in Shadow World.  Maybe we should run a game for him as a level 1 Magician and see what he thinks!  That would be fun!

Off the top of my head I would say adopt some sort of variable casting time rules....I think the Express Additions had one.  (I use the ones from MERP).  And make overcasting spells possible with a penalty based on the difference between caster & spell level.  I think RMSS had huge chart for this....

I'm all about branding.  So, perhaps making a few custom spell casters and lists that can only be found in Shadow World.  I know there are some Loremaster lists and Navigator lists but those are not for PCs.  Maybe some action based semi casters that would play in to the principles that make SW unique- technomancer (magic as technology tinkerer), Privateer (not a great name)(sailor/navigator), or some similar professions that would "force" the players to get into the intricacies of SW...

Again, I am just the messenger, and trying to provide some constructive feedback based on the experience I have had trying to convert players from other systems....

[RandalThor]

I know there are some Loremaster lists and Navigator lists but those are not for PCs.

I never played them that way.

While I think of Shadow World as the "default" setting of RM, I don't think that RM should have built-in SW stuff (like spell-lists and/or professions). RM needs to be available to be used for other settings without having to strip off the SW stuff, though a GM will always have some work in adapting RM to the setting they are using, they don't need any extra work.

[egdcltd]

How about a Shadow World specific supplement with such things?

[zyax1]

I'd love to make some special spell lists for my Lethys project.

[Witchking20k]

While I think of Shadow World as the "default" setting of RM, I don't think that RM should have built-in SW stuff (like spell-lists and/or professions). RM needs to be available to be used for other settings without having to strip off the SW stuff, though a GM will always have some work in adapting RM to the setting they are using, they don't need any extra work.

I did not mean to imply to adapt core RM material to Shadow World.  My suggestion is more like you could buy a players manual for Shadow World that would include customized professions from Shadow World.  Maybe region based books for a few bucks.  Part of the challenge with running a game in SW is that it is so huge and the cultures and races are so varied that you end up painting them all with the same brush to make it more playable.  A product like this would add flavour and detail as well as be a starting popint for new players to delve into SW.

[RandalThor]

I did not mean to imply to adapt core RM material to Shadow World.  My suggestion is more like you could buy a players manual for Shadow World that would include customized professions from Shadow World.  Maybe region based books for a few bucks.  Part of the challenge with running a game in SW is that it is so huge and the cultures and races are so varied that you end up painting them all with the same brush to make it more playable.  A product like this would add flavour and detail as well as be a starting popint for new players to delve into SW.

While I agree with the "region based books" idea, I don't agree with the "paint with the same brush" method. The reason SW is so cool is because of the variety of different cultures and races, and that they are not all the same - or just slightly different looking humans. (Which you cannot get away from totally, of course, as a human did create the cultures.)

So, I guess, I am confused as to what you are wanting here: Do you want different, and hence, flavorful races & cultures? Or do you want ones similar to each other, so they can be "playable"? Though, I would really love a more detailed races guide for SW (see separate thread) as you suggest here, where all the different human cultures (and some non-human ones) from the various parts of Kulthea are detailed and given "special nuggets" of game stuff (like the a fore mentioned spell-lists), so put me down as a buyer of said product if it ever comes out.

[Witchking20k]

LOL- you and me both.  I am not wanting anything in particular.  I'm just offering a perspective that may assist attracting new players...as I have mentioned, I run a game for "new" players and have observed the challenges that they have with SW & RM.

I already create a document of available races/cultures etc....but, not everyone has the time or experience to do it

[Terisonen]

Oh and for those who don't like all the high-powered aspects, I am making an effort to do more low-level/reasonable adventures in the revisions. And of course the Emer books really needed the adventure material (what there was) overhauled and expanded!

And there is the point.

For all my years of gaming with Rolemaster System, with many setting, the real problem with this system is to handle the high level in a nice manner for the players. When you reach spell level 20, you have some spell that kill you outright when failing a RR. That not fit with the style of heroic campaign when mortality has to be keep to a very low rate, and melee has to be epic. Not to say that only Rolemaster has that glitch, but I think best range for playing RM his, well, let say 1-14 lvl fot the player. Hoxever, I was not playing RM for almost 20 years, having passed to other system that IMO are more catching the flavor of the Campaign I love.For this kind of consideration, RM system his (IMO again) not fitting Middle Earth spirit. Nevertheless, i (and I wil continue) to use the ICE module, campaign and setting of Middle Earth for their are a masterful kind of work.

[Cory Magel]

For all my years of gaming with Rolemaster System, with many setting, the real problem with this system is to handle the high level in a nice manner for the players. When you reach spell level 20, you have some spell that kill you outright when failing a RR. That not fit with the style of heroic campaign when mortality has to be keep to a very low rate, and melee has to be epic.

Simple solution is give players a way to combat the spells you're worried about or, better yet, limit those spells in the first place.  As the GM you control the level of magic in your campaigns, not the system.  In 'my little world' pure casters are rare and magic is often look upon with suspicion if not outright fear.  So you need to be subtle about your magic use the vast majority of the time.  I also stated I didn't want more than one pure spell user in the group and that that character needed to really remember the 'subtle' comment (they ended up making a caster that has really few obvious spell results).

Not to say that only Rolemaster has that glitch, but I think best range for playing RM his, well, let say 1-14 lvl fot the player. Hoxever, I was not playing RM for almost 20 years, having passed to other system that IMO are more catching the flavor of the Campaign I love.For this kind of consideration, RM system his (IMO again) not fitting Middle Earth spirit. Nevertheless, i (and I wil continue) to use the ICE module, campaign and setting of Middle Earth for their are a masterful kind of work.

I have to agree that, without any limitations placed on spell use and development, RM results in a 'high magic' game once you start getting to the levels you mentioned.  Our primary two GM's in our gaming circle tended to end campaigns around 12th to 14th level or so (the lowest being about 8th level, the highest 17th) because of the problem with casters starting to rule the game without having had any spell limitations placed on them (either by house rule or in-game environment).