Author Topic: real world quote about police tactics  (Read 3987 times)

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2013, 12:16:43 AM »
Responsible people only shoot to defend themselves.
I am around such people fairly regularly also.  Heck, I own a .45 and have a carry permit (finally just bought a more comfortable conceal holster).  The problem in this situation is that, clearly, Zimmerman is not a responsible person.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2013, 09:22:48 AM »
I disagree.  To me, he clearly defended himself.  The instigator of the violence died.  Sad, yes.  Clearly an act of irresponsible behavior, no.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline jdale

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2013, 11:16:18 AM »
Who is the instigator is the part of the story that is impossible for us to know. We only have testimony on one side.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2013, 12:04:15 PM »
The only thing we know for sure is that Zimmerman's recorded discussions with 911 and even his own statements prove he was the instigator, and an aggressive one, of the incident even after 911 told him not to be and that he killed Martin.  There's really isn't any ambiguity about that.  From there on out it's guesswork.

Now, who started the physical altercation?  No one willing to come forward knows that other than Zimmerman, who pretty was clearly determined to be provably overly aggressive in his behavior.  Even IF Martin started the physical altercation (which is unknown) if an aggressive armed man is pursuing you for minor or unknown reasons (which is known by Zimmerman's own statements) by all accounts the "Stand your ground" law applies more to you than the man pursuing you.

Based on the 911 calls and Zimmerman's own statements (which show obvious aggression, prejudice statements and poor judgement) and a silent dead boy, who even by Zimmerman's own statements merely cut through a yard or two, I've got to side with Martin.  You have a hot headed and armed adult instigating an altercation with a unarmed minor who has done nothing more than walk through a yard (by Zimmerman's own accounts), so maybe trespassing at worst (and I doubt even that would hold)?  What sucks about the trial is that the dead boy who we have no facts about other than he cut through a yard or two, was essentially put on trial, not the man we know was the armed individtual who acted hastily and emotionally against the recommendation of 911 operators.

Now, is that 2nd degree murder?  Nope.  You can't prove he intended to kill Martin, there is reasonable doubt there.  I really don't think Zimmerman went after Martin with the intent of killing him, but I think he is 100% responsible for creating the situation where he "had" to (according to him).  That is Manslaughter.  It's almost the definition of Involuntary Manslaughter (and possibly Criminal Manslaughter).
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2013, 02:31:47 PM »
Guys, let's wrap this up unless you have something new and differeent to add.    There are far too many unknowns at this time to make definitive statements supporting either position.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2013, 06:47:14 PM »
All is known unless you think Zimmerman lied.  There is no reason to think he did other than pure conjecture.  Not believeing Zimmerman is based entirely in feeling, not fact.  Six jurors agreed.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2013, 08:23:42 PM »
Agreed - if you accept George Zimmerman's word then all is known and there is no need to discuss it further.

If you do not accept George Zimmerman's word then you have nothing more than conjecture and assumption to formulate your own opinion tied to the other evidence that was presented.

All I am asking is that unless you guys have new material evidence regarding these positions, let's just drop it.  I'd rather not have this escalate and believe you've both made your points.
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Offline markc

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2013, 09:10:32 AM »
 I can say that I think of a person with a gun as if that person knew a martial art at a high level of proficiency and they have an obligation to know when and when not to use it. They have to be smarter than the other person about the whole thing or they can be charged with a serious crime.
 But that is not the law in most places AFAIK and I wish there was a better way for people to help others with these types of problems without the need of firearms. 
 Also as always it is the one bad problem that shines a poor light upon a generally good thing.


MDC


P.S. Maybe since it is in the Con of the USA we should have everyone have a gun issued by the Gov. That way everyone will be armed if they can afford it or not.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2013, 12:42:40 PM »
One of our old group members always used to say requiring everyone to own a gun was a good solution.  An armed society is a polite society! hehe
- Cory Magel

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Offline jdale

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2013, 02:44:21 PM »
The old west was known for safety and prosperity. Or shootings and lynchings, I always get those mixed up.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2013, 04:25:57 PM »
Yeah, while it's a somewhat humorous sentiment there are a LOT of people out there who really should not own guns (and I'm not referring to just criminals).  The two most important things are keeping it responsibly (i.e. no easy access for someone else - like a child or burglar- to get hold of it) and knowing when to use it in terms of both not being overzealous but also simply the willingness to use it when you have to.  A gun in the hands of someone who doesn't know they could bring themselves to use it for defense if they had to is almost as bad as one in the hands of a hot head.

Personally, while I am against almost all of the anti-gun movements, I do think that a gun should be treated like a car.  It has a title that must be transferred when sold and you have to take a class teaching you how to use, clean, and store it responsibly.  If it is under your ownership when used in a crime you are charged with at least a misdemeanor unless you had already reported it stolen or (in the odd case you might not know it's gone yet, which is possible but unlikely) bring theft charges against the person who used it.  For example, the mother of the son who committed the mass shootings in Sandy Hook should be tried with related charges due to her knowledge of her son's 'personality' and, more importantly, his ability to obtain her guns.  You should have your guns securely stored when you are not on the premises and if you have a family member (or someone who is often in your home in general) that is not 'quite all there' they should have access to them.
- Cory Magel

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2013, 02:59:14 AM »
All is known unless you think Zimmerman lied.  There is no reason to think he did other than pure conjecture.  Not believeing Zimmerman is based entirely in feeling, not fact.  Six jurors agreed.
Actually, not to cause trouble here Thom :), the six jurors in fact did not really agree, but rather had to come to a consensus in order to avoid a mistrial.  Since more were for acquittal than guilty he was found not guilty.  It's pretty common for a jury to effectively be told "go back and deliberate more because we need everyone to agree on the end verdict itself or we just have to start over again".  I've been through that process (as a juror).  Got my eighth jury summons just last week (while it's interesting I'm getting a bit tired of it).  All must find someone guilty for them to be convicted.  Only one needs to find them not guilty to prevent it.  I'm not sure or how many mistrials they must have before they give up after repeated hung juries (which is what causes a mistrial).  And why on earth would one imagine Zimmerman is doing anything other than tell the truth???  ;)  Believing him is no less feeling that not believing him.

I recently found out part of why he wasn't convicted of manslaughter.  Manslaughter can be slightly different in different states.  Apparently the jury was told in order to find him guilty of manslaughter they needed to believe he killed Martin intentionally and the killing was not justified.  So it's slightly different than in the manslaughter law I'm familiar with where if you end up causing the death of someone due to poor choices on your own part, even if not intentional and possibly even well meaning, you are still potentially guilty of it manslaughter.  So, for example, where I live drunk drivers who end up killing someone are sometimes convicted of manslaughter.  They didn't kill the person intentionally, but their poor choices led to it.  They aren't vicious killers or horrible people, but they did something stupid that resulted in the unintentional death of someone else.  This is much more the case when they are repeat drunk drivers.
- Cory Magel

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Offline markc

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2013, 07:59:01 AM »
jdale +1
Cory Magel +1


  I also had a crazy idea that there should be a firearm Tax, now hold on a second and hear me out. it would be $100 per firearm but only $5 (or less) per firearm if you took that firearm to the range every year and shot it at least once. It would require a licence as well as an exemption for older weapons and maybe one for "exotic" arms as well.
 I can see it having a positive impact on the firearm manufactures bottom line (+ for NRA), Positive for ammo makers (I do not know if they are aligned or pay into the NRA), people get to shoot (can be seen as bad as they have to shoot), people get better with their firearms, people have to (should) clean their firearms so they will be in good working order and repair (good for many areas) and positive boost for shooting ranges in fees and traffic (again do not know if they are affiliated with the NRA).   


 Just a thought
MDC
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Offline KacyCrawford

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2013, 11:03:56 AM »

I think the quote below is very good for RPG'ers to remember. The quote is from Mr Root at the George Zimmerman trial.[/size]

"[People in law enforcement] have a golden rule. If you have not successfully completed the fight, if you have not won the fight in 30 seconds, change tactics because the tactics you are using are not working," said Root.

[/size]MDC

Cool!

Offline yammahoper

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2013, 02:15:16 PM »
Quote
Since more were for acquittal than guilty he was found not guilty

They were not FOR acquittal, the evidence demanded acquittal.  A few were emotionally apposed, but it was not compromise that led to the verdict, rather the evidence that TM assaulted Mr. Zimmerman.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2013, 05:34:10 PM »
Quote
Since more were for acquittal than guilty he was found not guilty
They were not FOR acquittal, the evidence demanded acquittal.  A few were emotionally apposed, but it was not compromise that led to the verdict, rather the evidence that TM assaulted Mr. Zimmerman.
Uh, there was no actual solid evidence.  It was he said she said between a living man and a dead minor.  It was the inability to prove either way due to a lack of it that therefore left reasonable doubt.  Which is, like it or not, how it's supposed to work.

I just got done with Jury Duty last week.  The last group I was with I was the first one excused by the prosecuting attorney because of one answer I gave.  Without going into a long explanation a man was being charged with drunk driving.  They had no breathalyzer and no witnesses to say his driving was impaired.  Someone had ran a red light and hit HIM and the cop smelled alcohol on his breath - so they charged him.

So my answer to a question was: Well, if he didn't cause the accident, you have no witnesses to testify that his driving was impaired and you have no blood alcohol level then you really don't have a case do you?

I'm pretty sure he was legally drunk, but no one could legitimately say he in fact was.
- Cory Magel

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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2013, 07:38:24 PM »
Guys, let the case issue drop.
If you want to discuss the quote that Markc originally referenced and Kacy commented on  - no problem, but let's move on beyond the trial and verdict.

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: real world quote about police tactics
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2013, 01:43:23 PM »
Guys, let the case issue drop.
If you want to discuss the quote that Markc originally referenced and Kacy commented on  - no problem, but let's move on beyond the trial and verdict.
My sentiments exactly, I have refrained from this discussion because of the direction it had taken.

As for the original quote, I like the concept and the idea of encouraging its application in-game. Anything to help get the players engaged and away from the "I attack with my sword" and repeat ad nausea. Players instituting tactics show they are into what the game and what is going on, and that is when it is really enjoyable for me.
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