Topic: Body Development for Hits or No?

[RandalThor]

Certainly.  I think many weapons in RM have over exagerated hits.  Bows jump to mind.  So do many of teh gun tables.  Why do i think this?

I have been in numerous fights, real knock down all out trying to kill each other brawls.  It is HARD to knoock a man out.  You can daze and stun pretty easy (though some take blows better than others), but to knock out, normally first you have to "stun", typically by a very strong blow to the head or chin, side of face or knocking all the wind out of them.  THEN you have to "put the boots to em."  Just wail on em with feet ot chair or club or what ever.  They curl up at best, or keep trying to run

Movies make killing seem very easy, almost painless.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Killing a human being with your hands or a melee weapon takes work.  Obviously, stabbing through the heart gets it done quick, but oh what a mess, and no one sits there to be stabbed.

When the crossbow was banned across Europe, it was in part because it was to good at its job.  It wasa killing machine, just like the gun is today.  It made killing to EASY.  Knights went to war knowing they may loose, but most didn't think they would die.  The wounds that would defeat a knight took him out of the fight long before they killed him, generally speaking.  The crossbow delivered wounds so severe recovery was unlikely, with death after being shot highly probable.  To fully grasp this, imagine if the nut case in Colorado had gone into that theatre with a sword and mace instead of guns.

RM attack tables deliver to many concussion hits.  MA Strikes in particular is utterly rediculous, at least against the lower AT's.  The Lock and Hold tables is well done (4 hits is the 150 result I believe?).

We RM players already know, it ain't the hits that tend to kill, its the critical damge, bleeding, etc.  The attack tables could better portray that reality.

P.S.  I have been thinking of play testing reducing hits delivered by Co mod x3 (in RMSS, would just be Co mod in RM2).  This could lower hits delivered and allow Co to truely represent the ability to withstand pain.  Not with the kids though (my current group lol).  I want a more experienced group to try such a change with.

All of this just makes me more inclined to go with a set amount of Hits that only changes when the attributes that help determine them change: Strength & Constitution. (Or the character's mass/size changes for some reason, like a spell.) I don't like the way Hits are portrayed currently - they are too D&d-ish. To reflect getting better at not getting hurt as much: increase your weapon skill and up defensive skills like Adreanal Defense.

Hits should just portray how much damage someone or something can take before dropping. That is it. They should be tied to a crature's size & mass, and their strength (muscle-mass) and constitution (basic health). Only when one or more of those change, should the Hits change. This means that 1st level characters will start off with more Hits than currently - which is good on many levels, and mean that a high-level character can get just as injured from a 20' fall than a low-level one. (With only skills and training being able to help there, not MORE HITS, which doesn't make sense when talking about falling damage.)

[ironmaul]

Certainly.  I think many weapons in RM have over exagerated hits.  Bows jump to mind.  So do many of teh gun tables.  Why do i think this?

I have been in numerous fights, real knock down all out trying to kill each other brawls.  It is HARD to knoock a man out.  You can daze and stun pretty easy (though some take blows better than others), but to knock out, normally first you have to "stun", typically by a very strong blow to the head or chin, side of face or knocking all the wind out of them.  THEN you have to "put the boots to em."  Just wail on em with feet ot chair or club or what ever.  They curl up at best, or keep trying to run

Movies make killing seem very easy, almost painless.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Killing a human being with your hands or a melee weapon takes work.  Obviously, stabbing through the heart gets it done quick, but oh what a mess, and no one sits there to be stabbed.

When the crossbow was banned across Europe, it was in part because it was to good at its job.  It wasa killing machine, just like the gun is today.  It made killing to EASY.  Knights went to war knowing they may loose, but most didn't think they would die.  The wounds that would defeat a knight took him out of the fight long before they killed him, generally speaking.  The crossbow delivered wounds so severe recovery was unlikely, with death after being shot highly probable.  To fully grasp this, imagine if the nut case in Colorado had gone into that theatre with a sword and mace instead of guns.

RM attack tables deliver to many concussion hits.  MA Strikes in particular is utterly rediculous, at least against the lower AT's.  The Lock and Hold tables is well done (4 hits is the 150 result I believe?).

We RM players already know, it ain't the hits that tend to kill, its the critical damge, bleeding, etc.  The attack tables could better portray that reality.

P.S.  I have been thinking of play testing reducing hits delivered by Co mod x3 (in RMSS, would just be Co mod in RM2).  This could lower hits delivered and allow Co to truely represent the ability to withstand pain.  Not with the kids though (my current group lol).  I want a more experienced group to try such a change with.

All of this just makes me more inclined to go with a set amount of Hits that only changes when the attributes that help determine them change: Strength & Constitution. (Or the character's mass/size changes for some reason, like a spell.) I don't like the way Hits are portrayed currently - they are too D&d-ish. To reflect getting better at not getting hurt as much: increase your weapon skill and up defensive skills like Adreanal Defense.

Hits should just portray how much damage someone or something can take before dropping. That is it. They should be tied to a crature's size & mass, and their strength (muscle-mass) and constitution (basic health). Only when one or more of those change, should the Hits change. This means that 1st level characters will start off with more Hits than currently - which is good on many levels, and mean that a high-level character can get just as injured from a 20' fall than a low-level one. (With only skills and training being able to help there, not MORE HITS, which doesn't make sense when talking about falling damage.)

+1. That makes a lot of sense.

[Nortti]

This talk of hp being more related to size, STR, CON than body dev is starting to make sense to me.

I guess it would be more realistic that hit points would not accumulate so fast every level, instead there would be more hp in the start. These would be based on size, muscular strength, basic health.

I play with this idea here:

Lets say that you could have for example half (60) of your maximum hp at lvl 1, so you could at maximum double (120) that by using DP to body dev. Maybe in lvl 10 you would reach that maximum. Your hp could also rise if your physical attributes would change. If your CON would get higher you max hits would get higher and you would get more hp due to higher CON.

This would change the balance of the game somewhat. Depends on how its done but I guess that magic-users would have more hp in the start, like 30 at lvl 1. It would also make it very important to fighters to do all you can to get that CON higher.

[intothatdarkness]

Not sure how I feel about this one. I've always considered Body Development to be something of a combination skill, including it being an abstraction of how a character learns to "play through the pain" and deal with injuries.

[jdale]

Limited hits is more realistic, I think -- there should be some room for people to be tougher but maybe not 10x as tough. But being tough enough to survive accumulated injuries is part of the fantasy genre just like it is for action movies. I'd be hesitant to change that too dramatically.

Also remember that the same effect is tied in to numerous other aspects of the game. For example, heavy armor is designed so that you take a lot of concussion hits, but fewer, less severe criticals. That only works because the high level fighters who can wear heavy armor also have more concussion hits to soak that damage up. So unless you also fix the combat tables, limiting hits breaks heavy armor.

Another example is healing. Healing spells heal more hits at high levels because characters at those levels have more hits to be healed. Likewise, the herbs characters can afford to buy at high levels heal more hits. Etc.

All that said, it might be interesting as a set of optional rules or, dare I say it, an article in the Guild Companion, if you figure out how to address the big picture. Other systems have done similar things, e.g. the Grim & Gritty combat rules for D&D 3.5. (Here's a summary of one version: http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Grim-N-Gritty_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Simplified_Rules )

[yammahoper]

The current system is very playable.  I have no problem with it.  I would like it better simulate reality, but I have been all over the place in my game with this issue.

Things I have tried; no body dev skill, hits are equal to Co stat (hits never change).  Hits only delivered via crits.  The hits delivered by weapon are instead a negative penalty to action for next mnv to represent the pain of the blow (I tried no reduction to this penalty and Cox3 as a bonus against the penalty.  this rule actually worked very well).  some overly complex bs to calculate starting hits, hits increase by 10% of Co each level increase, no body dev skill.  a truely monstrous set of rules that calculated hits by base Co and athletic/outdoor skills developed (back when I adored complexity  ). 

Hits heal far to quickly.  the sort of deep bruising a 15+ hit blow would leave would take a day or three to heal fully, and I mean so there is no more pain, not just the cosmetic bruise going away.  Something I have always had dificulty expressing in game is how a wound heals enough to not limit activity but just bumping it can be debilitating. 

In the end, I always accept the stabdard rules for hits and move on...until the bug to try something new happens...again.  The current rule set is very playable and follows a thematic most are familiar with.

[pastaav]

I think many weapons in RM have over exagerated hits.  Bows jump to mind.  So do many of teh gun tables.

I think you are spot on here. The number of concussion hits from distance weapons reads out like they are some kind of repeated attacks rather than a single missile.

One interesting set up would be that missile attacks deliver minimal concussion hits against unarmed targets and just give a nasty critical. Against armor the arrow would either deliver substantiell concussion hits or a critical.

The motivation would be that if your plate armor managed to resist penetration the energy in the arrow must go somewhere and you take concussion hits. If the arrow do penetrate your armor then the shock transmitted through the armor is very limited since the energy went into the critical.

I would also very much like to see a special critical table for missiles punctures.

[pastaav]

In the end, I always accept the stabdard rules for hits and move on...until the bug to try something new happens...again.  The current rule set is very playable and follows a thematic most are familiar with.

+1

[RandalThor]

This talk of hp being more related to size, STR, CON than body dev is starting to make sense to me.

I guess it would be more realistic that hit points would not accumulate so fast every level, instead there would be more hp in the start. These would be based on size, muscular strength, basic health.

I play with this idea here:

Lets say that you could have for example half (60) of your maximum hp at lvl 1, so you could at maximum double (120) that by using DP to body dev. Maybe in lvl 10 you would reach that maximum. Your hp could also rise if your physical attributes would change. If your CON would get higher you max hits would get higher and you would get more hp due to higher CON.

This would change the balance of the game somewhat. Depends on how its done but I guess that magic-users would have more hp in the start, like 30 at lvl 1. It would also make it very important to fighters to do all you can to get that CON higher.

All of that is what I have done, except the last part; even a mage at first level is going to have around - probably more than - 100 Hits. (Assuming human-sized/mass.) But they would only change, up or down, with the characters attributes and/or a special reason like having an arm cut off, or getting a permanent magical shapechange into a grizzly, etc... Which means that a characters Hits would not significantly change from 1st level.

Not sure how I feel about this one. I've always considered Body Development to be something of a combination skill, including it being an abstraction of how a character learns to "play through the pain" and deal with injuries.

Which is exactly what I am trying to go away from here. If you want to reflect that, then grab the skills that do so. (Like Stunned Maneuvering/Removal.) If this is going to be a system focused on skills (and you cannot claim otherwise with RM), then do so, don't go halfway.

Hits should only reflect how much damage an individual can sustain before dropping, period. (Not including crits which are the real killers, as we all know.)

[intothatdarkness]

Which is exactly what I am trying to go away from here. If you want to reflect that, then grab the skills that do so. (Like Stunned Maneuvering/Removal.) If this is going to be a system focused on skills (and you cannot claim otherwise with RM), then do so, don't go halfway.

Hits should only reflect how much damage an individual can sustain before dropping, period. (Not including crits which are the real killers, as we all know.)

So we clutter the system with more skills (which is one of the complaints about RM to begin with) and more dice rolls to use those skills (another complaint)? Not something I really want to get into, as I tend to feel that the system is too cluttered with skills as it is (primary and secondary both). 100 hits for a 1st level character seems high to me, but it's all good if it works for your game.

[RandalThor]

You don't need more dice rolls to use them. They could be used just like the armor skills, as modifiers.

Anyway, either go with a skill system or don't, don't go halfway, and you are not adding more skills: minus Body Development, add Pain Management equals same number of skills. Minus Body Development, use Stunned Maneuvering equals one less skill.

Also, in D&D 100 Hits (HP) is a lot for a 1st level character where you have to get through all of them, but in RM it really doesn't matter at all. CRITS are what kill. A single hit to a 50th level fighter with 250 Hits can kill him dead, just like the same crit to a 1st level fighter with 45 Hits. The only difference is that it is generally harder to do against the 50th level fighter due to their greater abilities. Please, lets stop carrying over the D&D mentality to RM.

[JimiSue]

While I'm not adverse to getting into the nitty-gritty of things, tghere are some points that just aren't worth going into, and exactly what hits represent is one of them. Yes, it's ludicrous that a level 20 fighter has a lot more hits than a 1st level one - the body cannot sustain any more damage and is still wounded in the same way by the same things.

For me, hits represent a combination of a lot of different factors. These include (but are not limited to) luck, general combat sense, and attitude. As a fighter grows in experience, he becomes better able to realise when he's out of position, can roll with the blow better, even anticipate attacks he can't see coming (I've had personal experience of this - back when I used to train karate, the sensei sometimes had us train and spar blindfold - yes, a lot got through, but it's surprising how manyu attacks were blocked). As I've seen quoted - "The trick is not that it doesn't hurt, the trick is not minding that it hurts."

As there is no other mechanism in RM to account for these factors, having the abstraction of hits works for me. Yes, a well-placed crit can bypass all of that, and I think that makes it so much more realistic than systems that rely on abstracted hits solely. A fighter who has taken just hit damage will be bruised and scratched, with pulled and torn muscles, but still essentially functioning pretty well at maximum effectiveness.

I see no reason to make the change - at most it would just be about renaming the Body Development skill to something like Combat Awareness.

[pastaav]

I don't really get the problem with Body Development. What is the gain of renaming Body Development to Pain Management?

The real problem here is that the bleeding mechanics as written is flawed and give a set of concussion hits lost per round rather than the more realistic "percentage of concussion hits" per round. The idea that you can bleed slower from punctured artery because you are well trained is ridiculous and have been covered to death on the mailing list and forum.

Fix this flaw and write the critical result like "punctured artery, will bleed to death in 20 rounds, take 10% of characters nominal concussion hits in damage each round" and IMO there is not one single known problem with the Body dev and concussion hits.     

[RandalThor]

I don't really get the problem with Body Development. What is the gain of renaming Body Development to Pain Management?

For me, it is a problem - though a small one, admittedly. I just think that it is unnecessary and just a hold-over from the D&D ideology. (Likely to give the appearance of similarity so as to encourage D&D-ers to come over an play RM.) And, you don't need to rename BD at all, just get rid of it and go with a set amount of Hits based upon a character's race/size and their Strength & Constituition stat mods, plus anything special (i.e. talent-related). The only time this number changes is when their stat changes, or some other special thing happens. But, for the most part, a character's Hits won't change greatly over the course of their career - except when hurt/healing.

The real problem here is that the bleeding mechanics as written is flawed and give a set of concussion hits lost per round rather than the more realistic "percentage of concussion hits" per round. The idea that you can bleed slower from punctured artery because you are well trained is ridiculous and have been covered to death on the mailing list and forum.

Fix this flaw and write the critical result like "punctured artery, will bleed to death in 20 rounds, take 10% of characters nominal concussion hits in damage each round" and IMO there is not one single known problem with the Body dev and concussion hits.

And this would be fixed, as well. without the increase in Hits by increasing in BD, you get a more realistic bleeding rules.

[Marc R]

Hits and crits do allow for a logic where you account for the fact it's a lot harder to beat Mike Tyson unconscious than to beat me unconscious, but his bodily improvements have less of an impact vs getting stabbed or shot.

I'll admit the bleeding issue has bothered me off and on for a while, but I don't see adding another pool of points like hits being a benefit (how many people already ignore Exhaustion Points?). . .and "You lose 1% of your total hits per 1 bleed per round" might work for me, but for some, any use of division or multiplication is asking too much apparently.