Topic: Arcane Magic Advice.

[LearningTheGame]

Hi everyone.

I'm new to RM and I'm thinking about including Arcane Companion material in game. I have some doubts and I want to read some experienced players oppinions before doing it.

Is it really so much more powerful than "standard magic" or it is just that it can produce any effect (for example, essence cannot heal...)

If other players take  "standard realm" magic users would their characters pale in comparison to the arcane caster? Is it worth playing a non arcane caster if arcane magic is allowed?

Have you included it in your game? Whats your experience with it?


By the way i have a related rules question:

If a "normal caster" develops arcane lists...Does he incur in all the penalties associated to arcane magic (Spells fail on 01-04, affect all group, power addiction...) or does he treat them just like any of his other "normal realm" lists?

What happens the other way (An arcane caster develops (for example) essence lists)

[DangerMan]

Penalties / mods are associated with the spell lists, not the caster, so a "normal caster" would still risk blowing himself up to the same extent as an arcane user.

Arcane magic is powerful stuff, but IMO not too powerful. We as good as always have an arcanist in our group, but I never felt is has broken the balance in the groups. We leave that to the talents....

I'd say go for it! Too many cool professions for that companion to be left out.

[RandalThor]

Penalties / mods are associated with the spell lists, not the caster, so a "normal caster" would still risk blowing himself up to the same extent as an arcane user.

Arcane magic is powerful stuff, but IMO not too powerful. We as good as always have an arcanist in our group, but I never felt is has broken the balance in the groups. We leave that to the talents....

I'd say go for it! Too many cool professions for that companion to be left out.

+1

I like it and think that it is good to give the PCs some power. (You have already found out that RM is a deadly game from your other thread, so granting the PCs some power is not a big deal. Especially since that power comes at a cost - the failures to properly casting Arcane spells are appropriately nasty.)

[yammahoper]

There are some very powerful base list, that is to say, the base list are much more powerful than the open and more powerful than the closed, though Blade Runes and Spell Triggers will test your mettle as a GM to be sure.

I find the arcane list tons of fun.  You will run into powerful spell combinations, but the spice of it all is just right.

[providence13]

LearningTheGame, I'd say go slow. Let new players get a handle on the 3 realms. They might need time getting used to each being a bit different.

We've just started to use a smidgen of Arcane. In the beginning, I never told the players about Arcane. "There's 3 realms of magic, Essence, Channeling and Mentalism. That's all you know. Some people don't even believe in 3. But in game terms we're starting with the basics. You have heard the term arcane, but it could just describe old, forgotten magics.." 
  These guys had been playing for years but as a new RM GM, I wanted to get a handle on some of the rules and concepts before I opened the floodgates.
(I found that they had been playing "wrong" for years.. Now we all play "wrong" but it's closer to RAW than ever! )

Soon, they encountered a potion or a ring with an odd Arcane spell. Old magic items that people didn't know how to make anymore.
It was 8-10 lvls before they had an Arcane List (with modifications).
I made more changes to fit my game, but I like a lot of the concepts in the book.

Have fun.



 

[markc]

Arcane can also mean unstable or more prone to failure if you like.
MDC

[VladD]

First off notice that arcane spells have an automatic failure number of 1-4. Second that armor works pretty well against them. The range of spells available is big, but the list in arcane companion are scaled down from the lists available in RM2 companions: which were ridiculous.
Now it is fairly regular and I included them in my games, but players don't really take any lists...yet.

A few concepts are powerful (but the same in spell law): blade runes, detection, healing and dispelling: these are the types to watch out for; otherwise: its consistent with spell law spells.

[yammahoper]

First off notice that arcane spells have an automatic failure number of 1-4. Second that armor works pretty well against them. The range of spells available is big, but the list in arcane companion are scaled down from the lists available in RM2 companions: which were ridiculous.
Now it is fairly regular and I included them in my games, but players don't really take any lists...yet.

A few concepts are powerful (but the same in spell law): blade runes, detection, healing and dispelling: these are the types to watch out for; otherwise: its consistent with spell law spells.

+1

[pastaav]

Is it really so much more powerful than "standard magic" or it is just that it can produce any effect (for example, essence cannot heal...)

In my experience the Arcane Companion for RMSS/RMFRP is in line with the other realms, this as one of the major improvements when Arcane magic was updated. There are some corner cases in Arcanist base lists where you need to be careful about the effect. In particular a spell that changes a spell to a elemental attack should not imply that you get an automatic success Absolution spell. All in all the spell lists in Arcane Companion work well.

If other players take  "standard realm" magic users would their characters pale in comparison to the arcane caster? Is it worth playing a non arcane caster if arcane magic is allowed?

This is no problem in my experience. The "problem" is much less pronounced than for instance if you give the players full access to the Essence Companion spells. The greater power in Arcane balance out with increased risks of using that magic.

If a "normal caster" develops arcane lists...Does he incur in all the penalties associated to arcane magic (Spells fail on 01-04, affect all group, power addiction...) or does he treat them just like any of his other "normal realm" lists?

What happens the other way (An arcane caster develops (for example) essence lists)

I say you get the worst penalties so an arcane magic always imply arcane risks and an arcane caster can not cast the spells in a more safe fashion but most always suffer his penalties.

[yammahoper]

The issue that can make arcane more powerful than all the other realms is if arcane maagic cannot be dispelled with dispell ment/chan/ess spell, but requires a dispell true/cancel true/or other dispell that affects all three realms at once (such as arcane dispells).

I persoanlly like this about arcane, but it should also mean spell holds, bending spells vesus mana and void bolts, etc, will be useless, along with normal protection spells from chan/ment/ess list (cleric protections spell will either provide zerp bonus to rr or 1/3 bonus at GM discretion). 

As you can see, depending on how you interpret and implement arcane magic, it can be very powerful indeed.  I have tried, and liked, UM spell failure of 4% for arcane spells up to level 10, UM 6% up to level 20% and UM spell failure of 8% for all arcane spells over level 20.  You can allow UM spell failure to be lowered by 1% per round of prep over rounds needs to auto cast a spell without SCSM, down to a minimum of 4%.

[VladD]

As I said: I haven't played with the new arcane lists before, but I'd rule the other way around:

Dispelling Arcane is easier because it relies on its 3 realm "legs" and taking one out will destabilize the spell, therefor ending it.

So its a potatoe/ potato issue...

I like the 2% failure rate per 5 lvls: it feels right, especially if you can prepare the failure rate down. I'll be sure to include this in my houserules!

[LearningTheGame]

Finally, I have decided to leave arcane magic out of the game.

I dont feel confortable with its background:

 Arcane users tap from the 3 realms at once (that is arcane magic). If channeling's power comes from the gods...Archmages are "priest-mages?". Makes no sense.

A little question, the "archmage abilities" trait from talent law states that, if  not using arcane companion, you develop spells as an hybrid spellcaster.

How does it work with the different class categories?

If you are a non-spellcaster...do you develop spells at a normal hybrid cost? what if you are a semi-spellcaster? Do you get the previous bonus? Do you choose one extra realm...or two extra realms? What about if you are a pure spellcaster or you already are a hybrid spellcaster?

@.@

[Marc R]

There's an issue there, where it is unfortunate that two concepts of magic got the term "Arcane" applied to them.

Primal, pre realm magic, in which all three realm stats apply merely because those are the three ways in which people use their auras to interact with essence. By tapping raw essence, rather than the derivative "flavors" of essence filtered through elements/caster's body/a diety, the effects are limitless in scope, and of high intensity. . .but also more unstable and risky due to the chaotic nature of raw essence.

Tri realm hybrid magic, which would fall into what you mean about someone who is a magician/priest/mentalist, who takes all three "flavors" of filtered realm essence, and in re-combining them can achieve effects impossible to any one, or even two of the realms.

I think close to 90% of all references to arcane in RM sources are the first, primal, type, not the latter, tri-realm type.

Primal type arcane would exist outside of the concepts of the realms, existing befor they were defined, so an Archmage wouldn't be a priest bound to a diety, they directly tap into the raw essence field, they don't get it from an "other". The drawbacks of arcane are chaos and risk, not a god tie.

The realms themselves are efforts to create "easier" and "safer" magic, by using a less pure, less chaotic, and less dangerous form of the essence. . .so merely re-combining three strands of base realm essence would get you more scope and power, but it would still be less powerful and more safe than the primal raw kind.

Does that help at all?

[VladD]

What I am about to relate here is all conjecture, hearsay and my own elaboration, mostly!

Realms are not: this comes from the gods, that comes from your mind...Magic is Essence. Essence is in everything and everyone. Call it the Essence field, Essaence, Magic energy, wonder stuff... whatever.

Realms deal with how Essence is formed in to spells:

Essence deals with it directly: somehow, using symbols, hand gestures, words and devices, the Essence can be gathered up and shaped in to a spell.

Channeling realm is about getting the power to shape the Essence via the gods, so you pray to Harry, the god of mundanity and he grants you the power to fry an egg, or fold laundry, using essence.

Mentalism is about the mind. A mentalist is shaping Essence (perhaps coming from within) using his mind and not symbols and gestures.

Each realm has its strengths and weaknesses.

Essence is wonderful with destruction, widespread effects and dealing with material. It cannot heal, work with nature or bless people and things.

Channeling does encompass destruction and material a little, but mostly it deals with the soul and spirit. Healing, blessing, dealing with holy and unholy business and nature. It does not encompass coercing people directly, or wide scale destruction.

Mentalism is a little of both channeling and essence, except it does it mostly subtly: coercing a single person, healing and hasting oneself, some minor buffs on self. Subtlety is a strength in itself, but reading the mind, posing a suggestion and being able to heal is pretty good. Mentalism is just not that good with souls and nature.

The realms are specializations on working with Essence. Arcane realm is not a specialization: its the basic Essence crafting skill. Where specialization leads to safety and control, Arcane is dangerous, but also quite powerful, because it is not constraint by the things mentioned above, so an Arcane user can heal, destroy, bless and investigate, without bothering to go in to specific rituals, praying to higher beings or contemplating the inner mind. In fact an arcane user is doing WHATEVER it takes to get the effect he is extracting from the Essence.

It is taking a big ass stone hammer and applying it to building a swiss watch... when it works: it works like a charm, when it fails, destroy the watch and probably your hand in the process...

But when you are not comfortable with using it, that is fine. I usually don't allow it in the beginning as well and my players either discover it slowly, or some enemy uses it on them, during the course of a campaign. It is completely modular.

Fun is the only thing that counts!

[DangerMan]

I usually don't allow it in the beginning as well and my players either discover it slowly, or some enemy uses it on them, during the course of a campaign.

If your players are not that familiar with RM this could be very cool; Let them discover a secret source of very potent but risky magic.

[Marc R]

I think you're on canon there Vlad, except for the Essence realm thing, what you're describing there is primal Arcane, tapping into or shaping the raw essence field directly.

The actual Essence realm uses Essence that has settled into the stuff of the material world, i.e. rather than tapping into raw essence to power your spell, you tap into the essence that has settled into the stuff of the universe. By using this essence that has settled down into the elemental structure of the physical world, you are dealing with energies that are easier and safer to control. They've been stepped down and made more tangible already.

(i.e. Arcane is tapping into a pseudo other dimensional energy field directly, while essence is tapping into the energy from that field that has shifted into synch with our existence and settled down into the structure of things already.)

It doesn't help in explaining this stuff the whole "essence is the raw magic energy" and "Essence is one of the 3 realms" either.

[RandalThor]

Arcane users tap from the 3 realms at once (that is arcane magic). If channeling's power comes from the gods...Archmages are "priest-mages?". Makes no sense.

That has been one of my complaints about the description of Arcane magic n RM.

For me, it is like this (and I tend to use Shadow World as my basis):

Arcane is Essaence and it is the major flows and nodes of the world. (Also called Pure Essence.) Though like Marc R just wrote, it can be tapping the energy directly from its source dimension, that works fine too.)

Essence is the little bit of Essaence that bleeds off the flows, and nodes is present in all things - both lving and non-living - and is more easily used/tapped. (Also called Ambient essence.)

Mentalism, is using the inherent essence that resides within oneself. (Everything that lives in a world bathed in Essaence/Essence is so saturated, and is also called Inherent Essence.)

Channeling is a very contolled/restricted form of essence use granted by a diety in return for worship and service to their cause, but the gods tap the Essaence (Arcane). (This can be known by as many, or more names as their are gods, but universally called (Un)Holy Essence.)

So, Arcane magic is not "all three", but it is the original, much more powerful source of all three. That is why I go with it being stronger and harder to cancel than either of the other three. (Not the "tripod" metaphor, but more of a tree, with the three "realms" being branches and Arcane being the trunk and, even more aptly, roots; it is usually easier to lop of a tree branch, than to cut the whole tree down, certainly than digging the tree up out of the ground.)

I like to think that why essence users and mentalism users have such different abilities has more to do with their training and preconceived notions on how it is supposed to work, than on the nature of the magic itself. In other words, a mentalist is limited in how many people they can affect and in what way has more to do with what they believe, and not because of the way (method) they tap their personal essence instead of using the ambient essence in their environment. Understanding this, is the first step on the road to becoming an Arcane magic user. Channelers are different because pretty-much everything they can do "magically" is dictated by their god, so they don't tend to every worry about the what's & hows of spell casting, ony the why (for their god, of course, I didn't say it was a difficult question  ). (In game terms: 1 PP = 1 PP, 10 PP = 10 PP, etc... so the varying effects are not power related, but mind/belief related. If you believe that a spell will do X, then when you cast it, it will (and hopefully not blow up in your face), and if you don't believe...)

[Temujin]

To ease the priest-mage dychotomy a bit, you can see things this way:  Priests draw their powers from a source.  That source is typically a divinity.  Arcane users also draw their powers from a source (or more than one), however that source typically isn't sentient: Nodes, etc.  If you read some spells dealing with sources in the Arcane Companion, you can clearly see that to Arcanists, there really is no difference from a natural well of power (a node) and a sentient one (a deity).  Of course, the natural well of power tends to complain far less when you tap it for power without asking.  Heck, one could argue the only mechanism deities have to control channelers is Grace:  You don't actually need to actively do the bidding of your god, so long as you don't go against his base teaching and earn corruption points.