Topic: attack reaches ?

[reywind]

Howdy ..

I have been playing MERP and we use Al/CL and spell law from RM witht the corresponding crit tables .... I do have a question.

I am planning a dragon encounter, super large creature ..... But in the stat block or even in the MERP rules I am having a hard time determining how far this fearsome creature can reach.

Can someone clarify the rule for me?

Thank you

[yammahoper]

my rule has always been if it can melee the players, the players can melee it.  i dont use battle maps.

[reywind]

i do use battlemats and 3d terrain for almost this exact purpose. The problem with your system is that is too simple and your are penalizing, in this case, the dragon from having an advantageous reach over medium sized adventurers.

Or look at it in reciprical .. you are giving an unfair advantage to the medium sized being able to engage a super large creature with no threat at all.

I appreciate your suggestion, but I would rather know what the rule is or where I can find the rules governing this topic.

thanks ....

[Arioch]

For armed combatants, Arms Law gives you the lenght of each weapon, and for creature, page 10 of RMC Creatures & Treasures gives you the reach of each creature based on its size.

[reywind]

I have everything ICEW has ever produced in respects to MERP, but the only RM supplements I own are Arms Law/Claw Law, Spell Law, War Law and Character Law.

I do think I own Creatures of Middle Earth ..... Somewhere ....... Maybe it is also listed in that tome as well, but I will have to look for it.

Thanks for you assistance.

[markc]

  I do not think the info is in ME as it was not designed as that heavy weight rule system. As Arioch said it should be in RM2 Creatures and Treasures but I have not looked myself.
  In the past I have used the weapon info in AL to give reach and then using the map as well as Cr&T to decide if the creature can attack.
  I do not remember any such info in War Law but I believe you if you say it is not there. It has been awhile since I have used that product.
MDC

[yammahoper]

If the dragons claw of tail can hit, then the tail or claw can also be hit.  Sever either and the battle is probably over.

Unfair is assuming a creature can melee and not be hit back.  Missiles are a different story.

[GrumpyOldFart]

But that only works correctly if you do hit locations. "Vicious strike pierces the heart" makes sense when you're being slapped by a paw the size of your torso, equipped with claws the length of short swords. But when you're the length of a 20' foreleg away from the dragon's torso.... not so much the other way around.

[yammahoper]

A critical with the result of "pierces heart" would be applied as stabbing through the hand/paw of the dragon.  Damage would be lessened, but still apply.  In this way, the dragon still gains an advantage by not being instantly dead.  Bleeding, penalty to activity for the wound, some stun for the wound.

OTOH, it is only a lack of imagination to see our fighter ducking under the paw and rushing in to deliver the killing blow.

Tomato, tomatoe.  RM is not a HP system and the 10 second long melee rounds are provide the system the romance it needs to make the combat work.

OTOH, if you want REALISM, no human will ever battle a 5+ ton dragon and beat it in melee. 

Problem with realism, for most it is not very heroic.  So we aim for simulation instead.

[providence13]

We use a table top grid too.
I think it really helps with these issues.
Have fun whatever your preference.

Specifically to your question, I'd bet MERP does have tail length. From this, you might be able to extrapolate claw reach, bite, wing size. Might vary depending on if it can fly or not. Maybe longer leaner flyers, more compact non-flyers. IDK. Just a thought.
For normal people melee, I give them a step and weapon reach without actually using Movement. 6 sec rnds here. This is only if it really matters. Melee is a fluid, move around situation.

For something as large as a dragon, one step and weapon reach would be far reaching. 

[GrumpyOldFart]

Exactly. IIRC, a boxer's 'reach' is defined as fingertip to fingertip. Extrapolate that to an animal whose "arms" are 4 times the length of your body, and you have something it's hard to get out of range from... although it's pretty easy for it to have everything except "hands" out of range of you.

The above assumes a dragon capable of squatting on its hind legs, which frees up upper body motion. A dragon that maintains a 3 point stance would probably have a shorter reach except for lunges, but would also probably be more mobile for turns, reducing the advantage for flanking or striking from behind.

And it would still be difficult to get out of its range.

[reywind]

Reach rules does not necessarily imply a lack of imagination, a combat maneuver could be performed by a man vs a dragon, and it is not necessarily a suicide mission to try, especially if the warrior were to possess magical items that aid him in such a maneuver and if he possessed say a dragon slaying weapon.... magic is the equalizer. But that is not the point.

I do have the dimensions of the dragon, but a 30' tail would not suggest a 30' reach. I just thought that there was a simple chart based on size that give a general parameter. I could make assumptions based on size and dimensions and just use the GM is God rule to justify it, but if there is a printed set of rules I would like to use them.

Thanks for all your input.