Topic: Tale telling vs Public speaking

[Faustized]

recently in the group in which I am playing we started using, in more detail, the skills under the influences category ... and arose a problem:

Tale telling can be used to influence and / or convince people? The other use of entertaining with stories or fables is clear .

Unfortunately my English is not very good and my interpretation of page 124 of the "School of hard knocks" is not accurate, at a first reading it seemed to me that tale telling and public speaking skills were equivalent and the only difference resided in the number of people who had to influence, if so how does it work exactly? how many people can affect the most?

[RandalThor]

I think that the key word in the description of Tale Telling is entertaining. This skill is used mostly to entertain, but I would say it could be used to implant, mostly subconsciously, some minor/general feelings about the subject. Public speaking is about changing hearts and minds right now(!).

Think Grimm's fairy tales (tale telling) vs. a speech by the late Dr. Martin Luther King (public speaking). The first will give you general feelings about something (good, evil, ogres & witches are bad, etc...), while the second just might get you to immediately join a march/movement.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I'd say the difference lies in the fact that Tale Telling is almost certainly a prepared piece, with the occasional ad lib around the edges to better fit the tale to the audience. Public Speaking, while it uses many of the same techniques for the same reasons, will tend to be no more than a basic outline and the majority of the 'performance' will be improvised on the spot.

Henry V is fine for eliciting contempt of the French in your audience, and it can be tweaked for anything from mere sneering all the way to violence by the specific Tale Teller(s). A Public Speaker making up his story as he goes along also has the options of compassion for the French and contempt for the English if he likes.

But on the other hand, half a millennium later the story still works, but the political argument is long forgotten. As the guy said,

Public speaking is about changing hearts and minds right now(!).

It's impromptu, but it's also short-term.

[RandalThor]

It's impromptu, but it's also short-term.

Not necessarily. Rules reasoning: Nothing in the skill description mentions a time limit. Non-Game reasoning: I don't think that the speeches MLK gave have lost their effect on many of the people who heard them first-hand, heck who heard them second, third, and on hand; they are still having an effect today.

From what I read in TSoHK, Tale-Telling is used on small audiences to both entertain and impart a "subtle message." (I could only imagine that the subtle message would be something like: Do look a gift horse in the mouth, for it may be hiding a nasty surprise. More in the line of morals, than hard-core info, I believe.) Public speaking, on the other hand, would be used for large crowds (GM determines) to sway their opinion about a specific subject, like: Hate the king and overthrow his rule, or you don't like X, you like Y.

[jaranka]

Tale Telling would be for entertainment purposes only.  It's an Artistic skill, not an Influence skill.  Public speaking could be used to influence a large number of people.

If someone wanted to use their ability to spin a wonderful tale to influence someone, I might allow them to apply the resultant bonus from their Tale Telling maneuver to a subsequent Public Speaking maneuver.  But I wouldn't allow Tale Telling to be used to purposefully influence someone.

[jdale]

I would allow tale-telling to be used to influence people, but only people who are willing to sit and be an audience.

A great storyteller can enrapture an audience with an on-the-fly account of what they had for lunch, or of the time they found a pencil. One of the best storytellers I know tells a story of how he went to class on the wrong day and then his friends threw an oreo at him. Dumb right? Amazing story nonetheless, it's as good as his story about going boar hunting with spears (in real life) (none of them were actually killed). All in the telling.

It's easier to tell a prepared story and harder to make one on the fly (might be worth modifiers) and also harder if you need to make a particular point (might be worth more modifiers depending on how complex the point and how receptive people are to it) but certainly possible.

On the other hand, tale-telling will shift people's opinions of things (including their opinion of the storyteller) for better or worse, but it's not as likely to motivate people to do things as public speaking. It's more subtle in that regard. But that's also an advantage, a listener may not realize the intent is to persuade them of something, while in public speaking people will realize. If you want to persuade people of something that is opposed their existing beliefs, public speaking will likely anger people, while tale-telling probably will not (unless you're too ham-handed about it). Public speaking is more likely to get you arrested or thrown out of town.

RMSS/RMFRP has too many skills, so I would generally allow them to overlap significantly as long as the player can come up with a reasonable explanation of how their skill applies.

[rdanhenry]

It's also harder to deliver a great speech on the fly. Most speeches are written in advance and generally rehearsed. Those who repeat a speech in different circumstances will adjust it to the situation, but that's just varying the prepared framework. It's probably easier on the whole to tell a story off the cuff than deliver a moving oration off the cuff. And the best tool for an impromptu speaker or storyteller is a load of memorized material to draw on.

[yammahoper]

Isn't Tale Telling in an Artisitic Catagory while Public Speaking is in the Influence Catagory?  That should be enough to infer the difference in skill, at least as intended by the author(s).

[JimiSue]

It depends on the subject and the audience. There aren't that many tales about the injustice of society towards a particular ethnic or religious group, so if that is what you want to talk about a speech using public speaking would suit you better. However, if you want to talk about the risk posed towards a village by a vampire nearby you would probably get a better reaction if you were to tell a tale of an encounter with one just up the hill from the village than just another lecture about garlic and crosses.

But - setting and audience is also a factor. While sitting in a tavern with an ale and crackling fire is a good place for tale telling, you might not get the same reaction if you were to pull out your speech and deliver it over the pints. Likewise, people who are demonstrating or who come to an assembly hall specifically to hear what the speaker has to say, are likely to be less moved by a tale.

For me they are very similar skills which can both be used for influencing others, and the difference between them is primarily a roleplaying one. but as others have noted, if there is a difference I would say that public speaking is used more to cause an emotional response (e.g. get the audience riled up to do something) whereas a tale appeals more to reason.

I also acknowledge that there are other uses for the skills - a college lecturer will do public speaking when she delivers a lecture, in order to deliver knowledge, and a bard will do tale telling with no aim in mind other than to entertain - but using them to influence others is more likely what the PCs are going to need rules for when they try to use them.

[yammahoper]

Tale Telling is done to get coppers thrown into your hat by entertaining.  Public Speaking is done to influence opinion and sway emotion. 

Obviously, good entertainment will sway emotions, but is unlikely to change an opinion.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I had forgotten that they were in different categories, Artistic and Influence. That makes it easy.

Tale Telling is artistic, you use it when your primary purpose is to entertain. There may be a side order of influence, but it's a side order, the entree is entertainment.

Public Speaking is an Influence skill. Your speaking may be more effective if it's entertaining, but entertainment is the side order, influence is the entree.

[arakish]

As previously posted, and my reiteration:

Tale Telling is entertainment.  "Let me tell the story of Covenant the Unbeliever."

Public Speaking is convincing and swaying a group.  "Let's build this dam so we harness the water's power, help prevent floods, and have a reservoir for when water is scarce.  Yes, it will flood the valley and destroy an environmental habitat, but we would get power, flood prevention, and a holding tank."

rmfr

[providence13]

Adding Seduction, Duping and Diplomacy can also be fun or complicate matters. Have fun.

[arakish]

Adding Seduction, Duping and Diplomacy can also be fun or complicate matters. Have fun.

Done had that laugh fest.  It was funny letting the players use all those skills along with Public Speaking.  It was so funny, we got almost nothing done that night.

rmfr

[Suzune]

Public Speaking is convincing and swaying a group.  "Let's build this dam so we harness the water's power, help prevent floods, and have a reservoir for when water is scarce.  Yes, it will flood the valley and destroy an environmental habitat, but we would get power, flood prevention, and a holding tank."

Honestly in that situation I would make you roll for leadership instead of public speaking.

I agree with the above though that Tale Telling is for entertainment. When we use in the campaign I am in, it is usually used to make some money so we can buy something.

While public speaking, although I am no expert, I would use it only if you needed to tell someone something and they had a much higher language bonus then you. Or you were trying to be polite. However this is almost always the players problem because they have to choose what they are going to say. Then the GM makes a call.