Author Topic: Just dumb if im reading correct  (Read 4035 times)

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Offline Sewercop

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Just dumb if im reading correct
« on: August 04, 2012, 07:31:13 AM »
 The expectation is that this public beta test will kick off in August. Copies of the drafts will be available for purchase in minimalist formatting from the OneBookShelf network and paid-up beta testers will be able to comment and discuss their playtesting results on the ICE forums.

You want people to pay for betat testing? am i reading this bull correct? if so, im done with ice

Offline pastaav

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2012, 09:38:39 AM »
Are you aware that you get the final PDF included in purchase?

It does not cost you nothing extra to be in beta testing unless you never intend to buy the PDF when the books are done.

You can most certainly decide you view it as you pay to be allowed to do beta testing. Personally I find that point of view rather pointless. A better description would be that you by participating in the beta process become a patron of the product that agree to buy it beforehand so that Nicholas and the others can get aid with funding and creative input that helps making sure the product is a success.
/Pa Staav

Offline markc

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2012, 09:43:52 AM »
Sewercop,
 I have forwarded you message to a Guild Companion Publisher rep so they can answer your questions. I have no more info than you do on the public beta.


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Offline ubiquitousrat

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2012, 10:06:16 AM »
Personally I can't wait for this playtest. We're day 4 in August already, so just watching for the launch. Bring it on!

From the perspective of "paying for a playtest", that's just what Marc Miller did for Traveller5. As someone involved, it was a great honour to "buy in" and feedback. The game just broke the Kickstarter RPG record fund and a lot of that popularity came from the positive buzz of a playtest.

To my mind, this is a great opportunity as a fan and a no problem to pay up front. Game on!

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2012, 10:17:53 AM »
A better description would be that you by participating in the beta process become a patron of the product that agree to buy it beforehand so that Nicholas and the others can get aid with funding and creative input that helps making sure the product is a success.

Or to put it another way, by committing up front to purchasing it, you get the benefit of having input into the process, thus improving your chances that the game you bought is the game you wanted. Or you can wait until the final publication comes out and hope that the folks who did the beta testing wanted the same things from the game that you did.

That's my guess, anyway. I don't actually know any more than you do.
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Offline Sewercop

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2012, 11:21:07 AM »
I do not want to pay for a product before its ready.
And for input in games ive seen patfinder burn and crash there(still a huge succses). D&d next are crashing as we speak.(thats more about horrible game desginers d&d wise) Traveller has a huge follwing atm and i reckon thats a calculated business move. Still wont pay for it before its ready.

If i get the pdf or not does not matter to me. Most likely will the books be bought anyways. To have to pay to beta test are what makes me frustrated. To beta test and actually write a summary and give relevant feedback is not something you should have to pay for.

I understand some of you like the idea, for me its a gamebreaker.


Offline naphta23

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2012, 11:29:14 AM »
Unfortunately, I forgot who the user of this forum was, who had or has the greatest signature I have ever seen: "don't throw stones - offer alternatives."

No, I am not a representative of ICE, Guild Companion or anything in that vicinity, so I do not know if you understood that correctly. Or if I understood your post correctly, for that matter.

When ICE wants money from beta-testers, that is their decision. Either that is the price you as a wannabe-beta-tester are ready to pay, or it is not. This is capitalism: they offer something and it is your decision to accept it or to turn that down. Think of the Wheel of Time series; Robert Jordan's publisher offered the prologue of some of the novels some time before the novel actually was on the market. Some fans paid a lot of money, others just waited.
In my opinion, ICE and GCP have to earn money to stay alive and to provide products. It is their right to try this option. And it keeps leeches away - I know a bunch of people who would like to volunteer for beta-testing some software or RPGs and use that material instead of buying the product when it hits the shelves.

You should keep the following in mind. If the beta-testers pay money, that is not ideal, granted, but that is money that can be invested in exactly those products. With that money the producers can pay writers and artists, for example. And thus they can provide a better quality than otherwise. Just think of "Kickstarter".

Who said that the beta-testers have to pay the full price (again) if the product is finally finished and published? For example: I already bought the old HARP Fantasy books - if I am not mistaken, ICE and GPC do not want the full price and thus offer coupons and discounts for those who already bought the "old HARP" as soon as the revised HARP Fantasy is published.

Please correct me if I am wrong.  :)

*edit*
PS: And I know a lot of "beta-testers" who took the products, used them and did not offer a lot of relevant feedback. The feedback was relevant and important if you ask the "beta-tester" and was almost useless if you ask the authors. Sure, that were bad experiences, but still.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2012, 11:36:47 AM by naphta23 »
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Offline markc

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2012, 11:42:27 AM »
Lord Miller who is now Marc R IIRC was the person or is the person with the quote "don't throw stones - offer alternatives."
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[/size]MDC
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2012, 12:04:48 PM »
I can see not wanting to take part in this model of beta testing. I don't understand the "then I'm done with ICE" bit. Just wait for the final version and decide if you want it then.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2012, 12:24:19 PM »
To have to pay to beta test are what makes me frustrated. To beta test and actually write a summary and give relevant feedback is not something you should have to pay for.

Fine and good, when that's what happens.

How do you weed out those who get a beta copy of the game, give minimal if any feedback, contribute basically nothing at all, and effectively got the game for free now? Should the company just eat that loss? Keep in mind that if it's gotten as far as a beta test, the authors/designers think it's either 'ready' or awfully close.

WotC might be able to afford that, but I doubt there are many game companies out there that can.
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Offline Old Man

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2012, 12:42:32 PM »
...
You should keep the following in mind. If the beta-testers pay money, that is not ideal, granted, but that is money that can be invested in exactly those products. With that money the producers can pay writers and artists, for example. And thus they can provide a better quality than otherwise. Just think of "Kickstarter".
...

Kickstarting the product (sort of like the Open Design Patronage style of operation) might be interesting. You offer the PDFs and other pre-purchase incentives (limited ed Hardcovers, signed books, artwork, bonus adventures) and see what interest there is.
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Offline JimiSue

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2012, 01:02:44 PM »
Just wondering (since I can't remember offhand), will the beta test vouchers also be valid to redeem against the print on demand versions? Since most of us who want dead tree copies will need go go that route to purchase, that would not be disagreeable to me.

To the OP - I invite you to use your imagination. Either:

1) That you are pre-bought a copy of the books from somewhere like Amazon, and while you're waiting you're getting a preview version of the material, or
2) That you never saw anything about the beta testing process and simply wait until the books are published and buy them then.

ICE is a business, it has to make money from its products. Producing a new version of a game is an expensive business, and if you have to wait until full publication before seeing a return on investment, that kind of cashflow problem can cause a company to fold before the thing even gets started. If paying money in August rather than say, November (date selected at random, read nothing into that) helps ICE stay afloat in order to reach publication and continue to stay solvent to support the product, then this is something I am happy to do. The big boys like WotC, Paizo and Mongoose might be able to afford to give away free versions of the beta, but ICE has a more limited audience and just isn't as big (yet!). If there is a propective player base of say, 5,000, and 4,500 download a free beta and then never buy the full product, ICE would be screwed.

To me, your posts smack or someone who wants something for nothing. This is the same mentality that has caused a crisis in the music industry - so many people are getting music for free without paying for the copyright, that the industry is in danger of collapse. I always pay for original copies of games and music I like. My father made his living as a professional author, and his income came from people respecting his copyright. If no one had done that, he would have had to have stopped writing. So next time you get a bootleg copy of your favourite artist's new album, remember that every person who doesn't pay for it is contributing to that artist never publishing anything again because they can't make a living off it.

Bottom line is - if you don't want to pay for the product at beta, then guess what - you don't have to. No one is forcing you to, you are quite free to go and buy the finished glossy when it comes out. But if you want to invest in a game you enjoy, stop being such a sourpuss and put your hand in your pocket. And who knows - if you properly enter into the playtest process and find things that need tweaking, you might even be able to get your group's pet house rules into an official game.

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2012, 02:32:57 PM »
- if you properly enter into the playtest process and find things that need tweaking, you might even be able to get your group's pet house rules into an official game.

That was the point I was making. Not being official either I can't claim to be privy to all the nuts and bolts of the process, but as I (possibly erroneously) understand it you're not paying any more, you're offering to pay the regular price a bit early in return for just that, the possibility that "your group's pet house rules" end up making all the original authors think, "why didn't we think of that?" and tweak the final product to reflect your contribution.

If the chance of having the way your group does things become the way the game is played isn't worth letting go of the purchase price a few months early to you, by all means don't buy. It's an offer, not a demand. But don't blame the game company for having the nerve to offer something you personally don't want.

2cp
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Offline pastaav

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2012, 03:53:48 PM »
I dont want pet fudging rules. If i wanted to play the way my group plays why the hell would i even care. I want a game that actually have consistent rules. Thats why you beta test, to make sure the rules works as intended. Are there any here that has even beta tested before? Its not like its to try a scenario and say its darn cool mate. Its actual work. Other games are fudging desperate to get beta testers in ttrpgs, here they want money?

Are you aware that this set up with public beta that you pay for have been used by Ironcrown for games like Harp SF?

Personally I think you are damn right about beta testing being hard work. As a hobby writer I run into pretty much the same with finding people to proof read my material. The sad truth is that most people lack the discipline for providing useful beta-feedback. They give a general "I think it can need some improvement", but never manage to provide actual suggestions for improvement.

Or to put it otherwise, to provide people material for free and hope you get good feedback require very large number of receivers because most people will lack motivation enough to participate. Asking people for up front payment for the product to get to participate is smart because it creates more motivation to put effort into responding. You get more "return" on your money the more you contribute to improvement of the game. If you spot an issue then you better report it because the number of beta tester are limited and you might be alone in seeing that. In a free beta the risk is great that everyone thinks "this issue is pretty obvious...surely somebody else of all the beta testers will report this".
/Pa Staav

Offline naphta23

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2012, 03:59:14 PM »
If you go to a casino and play roulette or blackjack, ideally you play with money you can afford to lose. At the end of the evening you go home with a whole lot of won money or you go home a bit poorer, but not painfully missing the lost money.

Mayhaps I am mistaken, but I assume that ICE has not any money to play with. I am sure that they would love to pay beta-testers and provide them with the beta-material and the finished product as a thank-you-gift, if they can afford it.

And I guess that is the whole point: it is quite a possibility that they cannot afford it, even if they want to. Any company with a large budget can ignore some IP theft, but frankly, I do not perceive ICE or GCP as such "upper tier players."

Sewercop, I can understand your disappointment, especially if there are many examples with other well-running businesses, but if ICE and GCP go this way, there should be a reason for that and I do not think they are liking it.
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Offline JimiSue

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2012, 04:20:12 PM »
Various uninformed and entirely incorrect ramblings.
I had a response typed out but there's no point since this is already feeling like the Special Olympics.

I have no more time for this troll. He clearly doesn't understand the first thing about copyright or business finance, so let him have his little strop and go away. Frankly I'd rather have that than have him pollute the hobby ;)

Offline providence13

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2012, 01:24:33 AM »
I will invest in an idea. I believe the sincerity of the company and can't wait to see what happens.  Even my players are excited and they hate change..

I've never found a game that was "ready" as is, straight out of the box.
The new system will likely be similar and that's not being negative. I know what I want from a system. If some aspect is missing, I'll fix it for my game. But I have a really good feeling about this..

The OP is likely speaking from past frustrations.
"I don't want to pay for a product until it's ready.."
For myself, I don't care if they want to spend 1/2 a page talking about how Umber Hulks can use shotguns or how in the world sleestaks actually made anything with those claw hands.
If the rules mostly make sense, I can use them. :)
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2012, 06:53:01 AM »
I'm not going to bother with someone who doesn't think I rate a civil response. Once I get cussed out for daring to disagree with someone's opinion, that's all I need to know, I'm done.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2012, 07:33:09 AM »
Let's take this back to a discussion and drop the cursing and name-calling. The original poster made some clear statements about his opinion, and he's fully entitled to those opinions.  Others have responded with their own opinions.  If this conversation can't be conducted without violating Rules of Conduct we'll need to lock it.


Getting back on topic...
I am sorry that someone would take such a strong popsition against ICE for doing something that is common in the industry.

We're also pretty confident that the version that gets released as beta will be pretty similar to the final version, and we want to expand the playtesting to any contributors who are interested in helping.  We welcome input from the fanbase to ensure the final product is the best possible, and by calling this publicly a beta we ensure we don't end up having to adjust the rules and re-release in 4 months because we missed something - especially when considering print runs and print on demand.  That could lead to a lot of dead tree copies with little value and lots of cost.   If you want to participate we'd love to have your input - but if you are not interested in doing it at a cost.... then wait for the final product. 
Email -    Thom@ironcrown.com

Offline markc

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Re: Just dumb if im reading correct
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2012, 10:35:22 AM »
Moderator note: No cursing in your posts or they will be removed.
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