Author Topic: ICE -- Zombie of the industry  (Read 10368 times)

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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2012, 09:43:02 AM »
Doomfarers and Starfollowers. Both excellent books, IMO.
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Offline markc

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2012, 11:18:31 AM »
Doomfarers and Starfollowers. Both excellent books, IMO.
I read them both a long time ago and I look forward to reading them again.
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Offline lordmalachdrim

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2012, 07:30:32 PM »

Offline Old Man

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2012, 01:06:38 PM »
** Yes, some of ROCO IV and VII is my fault. **

Offline Old Man

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2012, 01:09:53 PM »
Doomfarers and Starfollowers. Both excellent books, IMO.

I haven't read these in ages. I wonder if I still own them ... IIRC one of my favorite NPCs, a Lizard named Kisst'ha was cloned from these books. Am sure all the memorable bits will surface as soon as I hit "post."

I was a fan of Icerigger (by same author iirc) as well. Loved those boats.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2012, 04:05:31 PM »
To each their own.  I'm partial to Midkemia myself
Wow, I haven't read them in a long time. If I remember right, I liked that world too, though I only read the first 2 series set in that world, and didn't like the second one so much, which is probably why I didn't continue with the other series. (But not as much as The Wheel of Time.) I think I will re-read the first series, The Riftwar Saga.

I also read his book Faerie Tale, which I liked.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2012, 04:08:06 PM »
I always had a fondness for Coramonde, even though it never made it into a game.
OK, I just checked those out on Amazon, and I will have to see about getting them, they look like fun.
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Offline vroomfogle

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2012, 07:01:58 PM »
The Riftwar Saga is what did it for me....there's a few other series in Midkemia but none of them are as good as that first series.   It does seem a bit cliche these days - little village boy grows up to become powerful wizard....but yeah it's pretty awesome.

There were some old PC games set in Midkemia as well: Betrayal at Krondor and Return to Krondor which were great as well.

If I had the time I'd be interested in getting a license to Midkemia and turning it into an RM world.   http://midkemia.com/
Steve Abrams jointly holds the rights to it, but there has never been an RPG world for it.   There were several generic RPG supplements made (many) years ago which were also excellent. I think I have most of them: Cities, Jonril, Carse, Tulan of the Isles, Gateway to the Sunken Lands.

Offline stacktrace

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2012, 10:47:06 PM »
I just want to wish ICE the best of luck.  The timing is good, with new editions arriving or being planned by most of the major names, with the opportunity to beat DnD Next to market.

Others have mentioned the Paizo model of providing supplements, and I would like to second that notion.  Providing campaigns, adventures, world details, and stories on a regular basis.  There is no need to have huge supplements.

An iconic adventure path with a premise that captures the imagination of gamers everywhere I think would be a huge asset to have.

Though I have no real knowledge at the state and workings of the industry, so the only bit of true value I have to provide is just wishing the company the best, and that I will most certainly purchase the new RM system.

Offline Wolfhound

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2012, 11:23:34 PM »
Others have mentioned the Paizo model of providing supplements, and I would like to second that notion.  Providing campaigns, adventures, world details, and stories on a regular basis.  There is no need to have huge supplements.

An iconic adventure path with a premise that captures the imagination of gamers everywhere I think would be a huge asset to have.

Not sure how much info I should be providing on this front, but I've been in discussions with Nicholas about something that I've been slowly working on for years that may fit the bill here.  The intent is a larger campaign module of sorts; intended to take characters from the 12th-15th level (based on the number of characters) up to about 18th to 20th level.  It has a somewhat lengthy and twisted plot-line, but one that should keep the characters intrigued and on-guard.  Complete with lots of classic higher level critters and beings to deal with and challenges to overcome, with lots of options that should allow any GM using it to be able to truly provide an RPG experience that should capture the imagination of their players.  It is set in the same world as the "City of Archendurn" and "Dún Crú" modules previously published by the Guild Companion and now part of the product line of GCP. 

Just waiting for the Public Play Testing to start so that I can openly run some testing sessions for this series of adventures using the new rules set and make the needed adjustments to what has been written to make it compatible with the new RMU rules-set.  I had been hoping to write a bunch more smaller modules over the last decade, but with the previous management I was reluctant due to being unsure of the survival of the Rolemaster system (don't mean to cut down the Bruce and the rest, but frankly in my opinion they didn't have a clue as to what they were doing from a product management standpoint).  But with Nicholas having taken over that role, I now think Rolemaster has a chance to re-take its prior place in the RPG market, as the game of choice for hard-core gamers who want flexibility and detailed realism. 
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 11:41:14 PM by Wolfhound »
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Offline stacktrace

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2012, 12:43:22 AM »
That is most excellent to hear!  I look forward to seeing your work.  In the meantime, I will take a look at the other two adventures you mention.

Offline ironmaul

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2012, 04:05:35 AM »
Some may disagree with me but I think if you really want to sell a rpg system in a big way then you need to create an invested interest for your target audience...game worlds and adventure models don't reach that goal fully IMO. From my point of view a series of novels/stories will do this much more efficiently than some new game world...heck every GM and his dog has a game world, so what is the draw card to pick it up and purchase someone else's?
If there was a competent author that would spend the time to flesh out a novel/novelette with RM in mind then I believe there is a good chance that any product based on said story will have a better chance of sales.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2012, 07:26:15 AM »
If there was a competent author that would spend the time to flesh out a novel/novelette with RM in mind then I believe there is a good chance that any product based on said story will have a better chance of sales.
You mean like Terry K. Amthor's, The Shadowstone Chronicles? ere: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=20.0
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Offline ironmaul

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2012, 03:57:18 PM »
If there was a competent author that would spend the time to flesh out a novel/novelette with RM in mind then I believe there is a good chance that any product based on said story will have a better chance of sales.
You mean like Terry K. Amthor's, The Shadowstone Chronicles? ere: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=20.0
Yes.

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2012, 09:16:05 AM »
Some may disagree with me but I think if you really want to sell a rpg system in a big way then you need to create an invested interest for your target audience...game worlds and adventure models don't reach that goal fully IMO. From my point of view a series of novels/stories will do this much more efficiently than some new game world...heck every GM and his dog has a game world, so what is the draw card to pick it up and purchase someone else's?
If there was a competent author that would spend the time to flesh out a novel/novelette with RM in mind then I believe there is a good chance that any product based on said story will have a better chance of sales.

<clears throat> GW. Sorry, but they are really good at that aspect of marketing. So was TSR way back when (and still are if you like mopy Drow...). You have to have a world to anchor your system in some respects, and you need non-game products to draw people into your world.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2012, 10:14:43 AM »
I went a different direction with Drow, that still allowed them to be the "inscrutable evil ones" but gave them a little more depth.

Drow live in a completely encapsulated society underground. Like a spacecraft's life support system, the "closed loop" of the ecological cycle is very short, and cannot exist without magical and mundane maintenance. Society has to be intensely regulated, as a single misfit can result in every single member of the culture starving to death.

But that doesn't mean there are no such misfits. And the "humane" Drow answer to such misfits, when they feel they can afford to be merciful, is exile to the surface. In effect, shove them out the airlock. Note that whether "they can afford to be merciful" is as likely to be influenced by the need for organics in the City Compost as whether the accused actually did anything wrong or dangerous.

Therefore:

1. When dealing with "normal" Drow society, any tiniest instance of ignorance of the rules and norms they live by can result in you being killed out of hand, or at the very least arrested. And,

2. Any single Drow you ever meet, especially on or near the surface, is one who is judged by his parent culture to be criminally insane. To be sure, this may just mean he's more like you than the average Drow would be, but still...
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2012, 10:25:54 AM »
I was referring more to Salvatore's Drow creation, actually.

Drow/dark elves in my world take on a different aspect. They are followers of an older religion (after a fashion...many are descendants of the elven magicians' circle that brought on the Cataclysm), and were marked by the remaining elven gods so that they would be unable to infiltrate (or taint) current elven society. So they retreated belowground. However, the surface elves are bound by custom (and religion) to accept any dark elves who are cast out. In game practice it's more complex than that, but that's the nutshell view.
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Offline smug

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2012, 07:57:06 PM »
There's a bunch of mentions for Paizo and I've mentioned them before in other threads, but we should bear in mind that they're, by the rpg industry standards, a very big company (in terms of staff paid to produce rpg rules and support material, I guess the biggest after WotC, and expanding). They ran Dragon and Dungeon and the Star Wars magazine and when they lost those (Star Wars earlier on, but Dungeon and Dragon in the run-up to 4e) they rolled the large, expensive dice on continuing their APs as their own product (something akin to a combination of Dungeon and Dragon) and then they rolled the dice again, after the GSL was late, on their own version of 3.x. They've had a lot of money go through the company and they had a fair amount to start it, I think.

I don't think anyone else, including WotC, can match Paizo's output; they have a large body of staff and they have monthly newstand magazine experience at just about all levels. What they do from the fans' point of view which can, I think, be matched:

1) Excellent fan outreach from the top on down (Lisa Stevens posts a fair amount on the Paizo boards, as do the rest of them, and several can be found in the unofficial chatroom from time to time).

2) Relatively little slippage in release dates (it happens, but it's not terrible).

3) Pretty good relations with the bricks-and-mortar stores even though they're selling subscriptions through their own operation, plus selling their core rules as pdf for $10 a go and the entire ruleset is OGL. Thus, plenty of material in stores.

4) Pathfinder Society organised play, plus and including great presence at cons. It's easy to get a game of Pathfinder just about everywhere.

I think ICE is getting better at 1) (and John does a good job in particular in that regard), 2) is I think achievable although harder with freelancers than with salaried staff (although Paizo does still use freelancers, it has a set of full-time editors and also on-staff writers), but 3) and 4) seem to me to be pretty tough; Paizo had a springboard of 3.x, which was well-known, relatively well-liked and very successful, whereas Rolemaster seems to me to have been treading water since sometime in the 90s whilst at the same time losing it's huge setting hook (I love Shadow World, incidentally, but I am pretty sure that Middle-Earth was a bigger selling-point for a lot of people).

Still, I don't think anyone involved with ICE expects it is going to make them substantially richer, so hopefully they can muster enough effort to bring Rolemaster up to a point of sufficient prominence that the game's qualities -- and I'm assuming that the new game will be decent even if I don't play it (I have RMC, which I love and for which the Middle-Earth stuff is basically written along with MERP) -- will drive more sales. Hopefully we can see a lot of new people brought in through games played in games stores -- although they tend to be much more OK with that if they can sell the supporting material, obviously, in hard copy -- and conventions. I doubt my contribution will be much use in that regard -- I'm an RM2/C guy and I use RMX to bring new people in -- but if there's a clear path, via a basic introduction, to the next version of RM then if there's any way to persuade sufficient numbers to GM the games for new players then an approximation to my points 3) and 4) can happen, too.

The recent candid blogs Lisa Stevens has been doing, one monthly for each year of Paizo's now 10-year existence, have been really interesting; it's not been remotely plain sailing for them and they've had at least three big blows, taken a bunch of risks and seem in the end, finally, to have raked in a large pay-off. I hope ICE's story in a few years, even if it's not as large a scale as Paizo's, also makes happy reading.

Offline John @ ICE

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2012, 03:38:32 PM »
Smug:

This is a very wise analysis and while you could expand on it, its the correct view of the front facing part of the business, or the part of the business that faces the fans.  There are lots of things that go on behind the scenes (for better or worse), but ultimately we are judged upon the final execution with the community.

I think we ARE doing a better job at (1).  With Colin joining the team (our new Head of Community and Marketing), this will only get better, but he's a newbie when it comes to RPGs so can't actually add yet to the game side of the equation.  He is an expert in social media, outreach and marketing and that will help alot.  I also cant say our communication will get much better as you all know Nicholas and I have full time jobs.  We jump on when we can!

(2) will improve, but you are correct, we have "suppliers" that we are not fully in control of, unlike employees.  Our delivery dates will always stay soft and we can only really "float" people in the right direction and keep you up to date on progress.

(3) We have a plan for this and its likely to happen sooner than you think though the roll-out of coverage will take time.  But I am involved with other online retail businesses and I can tell you if you start there, they are destroying B&M.  Now, that being said, strong B&M gaming shops that provide a SERVICE (gaming tables, advice, teach-ins, etc.) beyond JUST selling product will survive and be supported.  We need to be in those shops. But make no mistake, I view it as marketing, nothing more. I assume every product I put into the shops I will get little or no return on because we pay so much away to distribution.  BUT even if thats true, it is like a billboard sitting in the shop and I am happy to do it. Ultimately, I think the vast majority of sales will migrate online.  Put it another way, do you really think there will be many B&M book shops left in 20 years?  I don't.

(4) We were discussing cons recently.  Positive is that you are out, upfront with the fans and they are hardcore and that's how you get the best word of mouth.  the bad news?  Hugely time intensive and somewhat (though not insanely) costly.  The time aspect is the killer.  BUT should we be at GenCon?  Yes.  By when?   Hrmmmm...I'm going to go out on a limb and say next summer, but its not a promise AND this is purely a hopeful target of mine and I'm not sure where Nicholas's would be on this, so its hard to say.  (And actually, its pretty expensive as Nicholas and I need to some from the UK!). Not sure if you noticed but we do and will support people with game product giveaways as prizes and something for the GM if you run a game at a local con.  I think that notice Colin just put up.  So we are trying to cover these bases, but we need to crawl before we run.
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Offline Wolfhound

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Re: ICE -- Zombie of the industry
« Reply #59 on: September 10, 2012, 04:55:38 PM »
Is Colin interested in participating in RPG's (getting his hands dirty/bloody so to speak)? 

As if so, I'm in the process of organizing a couple of play-test groups for the product that I'm working on for RMU and will be running at least one group via Fantasy Grounds once the open-beta rules are released and I have time to read them over and make any needed adjustments.  I must have missed the announcement about Colin, as I knew you guys were looking for someone, but had not heard anything about progress towards choosing anyone yet (but then again I'm only semi-active here on the forums).  He can contact me via PM through the forums if he wishes (or Nicholas has my email address).

Also, depending on his location (real-world that is), there are a couple of other GM's who will be play-testing this module once I make a little more progress on getting it organized and run the current groups at least part way through it. 

Also, yes the B&M stores are really a necessity (even if the profits are low or only break-even) as with them growth will likely occur more quickly (one of the play-test groups I'm running is in a local store, with the owner saying that if these generate much interest that he will carry at least a few copies of the core books).  On that note, I've already got 4 confirmed participants at the store (with only one of them ever having played RM before, and the other three all having a fair bit of D&D experience, but all three being disappointed with the current direction that D&D is taking and having talked with two of them myself, they sound like they are really looking forward to experiencing RM.  The first session is planned for just under two weeks away (will start them off with RMSS for now, until the open-beta rules are released, just to bring them up to speed on the basics of RM and get started with the campaign modules storyline). 

But on that note it would be nice if we had some indication as to when the open-beta material will be released.  Last we heard it was going to be in August, which has obviously been delayed, as Nicholas said that it needed some more work.  Which is fine as editing can be a daunting task (I know from experience with the GuildCompanion.com E-zine, we often struggle to get things in the shape they need to be in time, and we are usually just dealing with small articles or short stories), but can we get a rough estimate as to when it will be ready?  September yet?  October?  Later? 

When it comes to Conventions, I would be more than happy to help (as would many others I'm sure).  Be it running sample games (had seriously thought about doing that this year, but ended up not going as a couple of people who had said they were interested in splitting a room backed out or refused to go unless someone else would pay their way), or helping out at the booth.  And in so doing I'm not looking for all my costs to be covered, I'd be willing to do it just to help support the product lines (although if some aspect of the cost was covered, I'd not complain, but with the costs involved and the extremely tight margins that exist within most of the RPG industry I'd be willing to volunteer some of my time just to help out the cause. 
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Cur. projects: RMU Creature Law 1 & 2, No Quarter Under the Crown (campaign module for RMU)