Topic: Greek Fire

[RandalThor]

How do you handle molotov-like attacks in your game? You know, the good old oil flask thrown at the enemy, or things like greek fire, pitch, acid, etc...

Well, on a case-by-case basis. Meaning, it all depends upon the following (though there are likely more factors, these are just off the top of my head):

What is the situations: Heroic/dramatic? Minor/Random encounter?
The molotov, is it very add-hoc or is it built well with a quality fuel?
Is the thrower skilled at throwing? (Not a specific "Molotov ocktail" weapon skill, but a general athletic throwing capability, but having an actual grenade skill would not hurt at all.)
How well did they roll?
Where are the targets? In a field or huge room? In a small room? A hallway?

All of that has a big effect on the usefulness (or lack-there-of) of the attack. The fact that this was asked in the Rolemaster forum tells me that you mean in a typical fantasy setting use. I don't think actual Greek Fire was used in glass bottles with rags stuffed in their necks and then lit and thrown, right? So, the use that I assume you mean is, a player takes a flask* of oil, dumps it into an old bottle of booze (maybe mixing the two if not completely empty), stuffs a wrag in the neck, lights it and then throws it at the enemy. In that case, the weapon is a bit more of a morale attack than anything else, but splash damage could hurt significantly, and a direct hit upon a foe which coats with coverage from 20-50%, would likely kill them in a few rounds. Mostly though, a big splash and whoosh of fire would do more to scatter your enemy than deal damage.

The fear of fire is still hard-wired into the human psyche, and I can only imagine it is the same for most of the fantasy races in the typical fantasy setting.

*Because I think a flask is actually not glass or ceramic, but more like a skin flask made from animal hide that has been treated to be water/liquid proof.

[yammahoper]

 

but fat auto ignites at 600 or below

Then we should all be on fire?

I'm sure melted fat is covered on the burn critical table...awe shucks, ICE hasn't made a Critical Law book yet, which sounds like a great book (100 critical tables!?).  Add Burn Crits to the list.

Now, who wants to write them?

[Marc R]

It must be rather, em, warm where you are if temps are approaching 600. 

Real fire attacks tend to work best when you can set them up, or use them on fixed locations.

Like, fill the dry moat with wood, pour lamp oil on it, wait for the zombies to charge in, and light it up. . . or toss the molotov into the guard shack. . . .you'll notice when they use them on TV in riots, they tend to use them on fixed locations, or vehicles. . .it's hard to get a bottle to break on a person, and you tend not to get a vast ball of fire. . .a liter of gas is not going to make a fireball spell like fireball, much less a pint of lamp oil. (Pour actual lamp oil on a fire, it burns like heck, pour it on the ground and throw lit matches at it, and it'll put them out like a puddle of water). Pre heating the oil does wonders, that vat of boiling lard they dump off a castle wall is likely much easier to set on fire for being pre heated.

Assuming you even get fire, mostly you'll get splash damage, like it hits the hard ground and then you set a lot of ankles on fire. . .which indeed could be quite bad without another cop standing there to put you out with a handy fire extinguisher. . .the attack itself really doesn't do much, but it does set you on fire. . .never been happy with any of the mechanics for being set on fire I've seen in RM.

Good for turning a crowd back though, nothing like fire to scare people.

[markc]

  Assuming you even get fire, mostly you'll get splash damage, like it hits the hard ground and then you set a lot of ankles on fire. . .which indeed could be quite bad without another cop standing there to put you out with a handy fire extinguisher. . .the attack itself really doesn't do much, but it does set you on fire. .

 Nice profile tip, look for people with no hair on their ankles, burn marks on their legs and wrapped legs.
MDC

[Marc R]

Assuming the GM isn't being rough with the smoke rules (which would contraindicate using fire underground) throw the firebomb at the corridor ceiling to rain fire down onto people.

[Elton Robb]

I think Napalm is the spiritual successor of Greek Fire.

[Marc R]

Weaponizing flamable substances, you want something sticky, that ignites easily. So you're right, but the two come at it from very different directions.

Modern gasoline ignites at low temperatures, but is very thin, so they add detergent like agents to thicken it. This gives you a substance slightly more stable than gasoline, napalm. You need not worry more about carrying it than you would carrying gasoline, like I wouldn't play with it while smoking for instance.

Ancient oils were already thick and sticky, but as I said above, they don't ignite at casual temperatures, meaning usually you'd need a "Flask of almost boiling lamp oil" to get a fire bomb to work. The exact formula is debated, but the key active ingredient is unslaked lime. Water is usually not the best choice for fighting an oil fire, but mixing lime into the oil means that when the mix hits water, the lime's violent exothermic reaction with water heats and then ignites the oil. . .and wetting down your ship before a fight or throwing water on the fire just makes it hotter. . . .I wouldn't want to live next door to a building storing greek fire though, even though the oil kept the lime "dry" even atmospheric water could set the lime off. . .I'd definitely consider it more dangerous to use or store than napalm. . .and no need for a flaming rag with it, it'll light up almost immediately if there's liquid water touching it, and even just a bottle of it breaking anywhere with humidity in the air will heat up to ignition temperature over a minute or two. . I'd be really nervous carrying around breakable bottles of that stuff in a combat/adventuring scenario.

[Elton Robb]

This forum has a lot of knowledgeable people in it.  How wonderful that I started to miss it.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I'd be really nervous carrying around breakable bottles of that stuff in a combat/adventuring scenario.

There was a magic item called a Shoola, a little pottery figurine that, when broken, did a Cold Ball centered on the figure.

I told the guy he really shouldn't carry around a belt pouch full of them as sling ammo...

 

[Marc R]

I saw a high level fighter combust on a bad slap to the floor with 3 large bottles of super acid in his backpack.

[yammahoper]

Yamma, meat burns at 1400, but fat auto ignites at 600 or below. . .and that's "vaporized and flame" it'll burn a lot lower than that with a wick effect. . .I rarely use realistic fire in gaming, but when you do it's super ugly. . .starting at "Can't breathe" and ending at "After one round of the enemy firing the flamethrower into the hole you were hiding in, you discover your body fat is liquified, soaked into your uniform, and afire."

In game I tend to scale the size of the fire, and apply a crit level to it akin to wall of fire effects. . .If I'm feeling mean I apply holding breath for smoke issues, or if really mean, poison RRs vs smoke with every 10% failed equaling a round of stun.

Exactly.  So once the fuel is exausted, new damage ends as the flesh itself will not ignite.  We have to assume the critical deals properly with the damage.

[Marc R]

Definitely. . .but it's why I avoid going much beyond the criticals, because actual fire is nasty.

I wouldn't want to get into progressive escalation, like paper, kindling and wood, you light the paper with a match, paper lights kindling, kindling lights wood. Despite the match not burning hot or long enough to ignite the wood, it can cause it.

Most "Spontaneous Human Combustion" cases turn out to be some variation of:

68 year old woman has a stroke, collapses on tile kitchen floor, cigarette lights the cuff of her shirt on fire. . .shirt fire is hot enough to start melting fat. . .melting fat soaks the ash of the burned shirt, then the still burning pants ignite the fat  (like the ash wick of a colman lantern essentially), fat burns long and hot enough to get the flesh burning, flesh burns hot enough to get the bone burning.

Cops show up, find a large scorch mark with some ash in it, an oily soot stain on the ceiling and some fragments of the ends of the bones where they are densest, some shattered tooth enamel, and nothing else. (Sometimes with skinny people they just find the arms and legs, which didn't have enough fat in them to get the cycle going). . .

Much like an 18 inch thick green log, it's hard as heck to get a human body burning, but once you get it going. . .

I'd love to see an "On fire" mechanic I liked, but I've yet to see one, and the blindness from smoke, inability to breathe and poison mechanisms that would make fire real are just too ugly.

Hence, like you I mostly just stick to the critical table.

[Arioch]

I saw a high level fighter combust on a bad slap to the floor with 3 large bottles of super acid in his backpack.

This remind me of a dwarf in one of our parties, he was carrying several flasks of oil when he had a close encounter with a Narauk...