Topic: Greek Fire

[Arioch]

How do you handle molotov-like attacks in your game? You know, the good old oil flask thrown at the enemy, or things like greek fire, pitch, acid, etc...

[yammahoper]

Flesh ignites at around 1400f.  As such the body itself isn't burning, the fuel is.    So the question is, how long does the fuel burn?

As long as the PC is on fire, a heat crit is appropriate.  If the fuel burns so hot the flesh ignites...game over buddy.

A molotov can ignite cloths to, and if the PC is in lots of clothing, shedding them will probably end suffering taking heat crits.  If the fuel is on the skin, then crits are suffered until it burns out or is extinguished.

Critical severity for clothing on fire should start at A and B crits.  As the fire spreads, the severity goes up.  Basically, base the crit severity on how much of the PC is on fire.  Each increment increase in crit should be for every 10% or 15% of surface area that is burning.  Additionally, damage will increase the longer the fire burns and builds heat.  Every two rounds on fire, increase crit severity by one.  If target runs in fear or panic, increase severity every other round instead.  100% action can reduce flame enough to prevent critical increase, and with a successful mnv, shrink the fire/critical severity by one, unless the fuel is still burning, in which case spreading is stopped and the fire contained, but it keeps burning.

A think a molotov will burn up its fule in 2-12 rnds.  Assume a succesful hit (or possibly splash) indicates target is on fore and fuel will burn off in 2 rnds.  Increase duration by 2 for each severity in crital achieved.  I have used the crush attack table to resolve attack without applying hits or actual crush crit (and no size restrictions...I might use brawling in the future), though a bottle to the head could really hurt.    The grenade/missile table could be used too. 

Does the bottle break?  St mod x3 plus "hits" delivered in the attack plus d100.  Over 100, bottle breaks.  Mods for the container are on you ( a wiskey bottle is harder to break than a beer bottle, a wine bottle easier than a beer, bottle, a flask very hard, etc).  If the container doesn't break, roll another break check at +20 for hitting the ground.

Things get nasty if the PC with alchemy or chemistry decides to add soaps and invent/produce napalm. 

Against heavy armored foes, this is a VERY deadly attack.  Plate maile wearing warriors can rarely get out of armor without help, and heavy chain isn't much better.  Armor may slow down the burning damage for a round or three, but eventually its gonna hurt.  Be fair, discuss the reality and physics of it as needed with players, and let the dice do the talking.

[jdale]

Of course a molotov cocktail is made using refined gasoline, and maybe some motor oil to make it more sticky. The good old oil flask, filled with oil meant to burn in a lantern, actually won't even ignite under most circumstances. It certainly won't burn like napalm. More on this http://antiledo.blogspot.com/2011/04/lamp-oil-doesnt-burn.html

That's not to say that there weren't nasty flame-based weapons in the fantasy period, but they really need to be concoctions that are made for that purpose, like Greek Fire. Not common household materials. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_thermal_weapons has a pretty good overview, and I highly recommend http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Poison-Arrows-Scorpion-Bombs/dp/158567348X if you want to read more.

[intothatdarkness]

Of course a molotov cocktail is made using refined gasoline, and maybe some motor oil to make it more sticky. The good old oil flask, filled with oil meant to burn in a lantern, actually won't even ignite under most circumstances. It certainly won't burn like napalm. More on this http://antiledo.blogspot.com/2011/04/lamp-oil-doesnt-burn.html

That's not to say that there weren't nasty flame-based weapons in the fantasy period, but they really need to be concoctions that are made for that purpose, like Greek Fire. Not common household materials. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_thermal_weapons has a pretty good overview, and I highly recommend http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Poison-Arrows-Scorpion-Bombs/dp/158567348X if you want to read more.

Perhaps not, but who's to say that fantasy oil isn't magically altered to burn more readily? Especially in areas where undead that happen to be susceptible to fire are common?

Agree with yammahoper's ideas about damage and the like. As for concerns about balance...we worked that out by making the "bomb" flasks thinner and thus more prone to breaking (they have to be if they're going to be good weapons, after all). Players' propensity to become "bomb-throwing Bolshies" dropped a bit after the first time one of them became a human fireball when all of her flasks went off at the same time after an encounter with a bandit's torch swung as an improvised weapon.

[JimiSue]

I did have one player who badly needed fire bombs to make some out of lamp oil flasks and pine tree resin - I know that resin is very flammable and also very sticky, although I'm not sure if it will mix well with oil. I let him have it though because it was a nice use of a survival skill.

I've just seen a thing on Discovery (Sons of Guns) where they made a huge napalm flamethrower - it's the first time I've seen napalm up close and even though I'm a hardened roleplayer and it was only being used against an old truck, it sent chills down my spine as I imagined what it would do to the soldiers in the Viet Cong it was used on.

In regards to rules, I would say it has range and accuracy like a thrown weapon, damages like a fireball (though perhaps with a modifier on the splash radius and definitely a maximum effect - which might move up or down depending on the ingredients available... so your dedicated firebomber could have the potential to fling these things with a 150 max out. I would suggest that the materials required be *very* hard to find though.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Let's see...

Pine resin
Tar
Distilled spirits
Plant sugars
Turpentine

Just off the top of my head, it seems like there are ways to vary the viscosity/stickiness and how flammable the mixture is. I'm sure more ingredients occur to other people, and I haven't even begun on things like phosphorus and saltpeter.

[yammahoper]

Additives increase burn time and temperature.  It takes far less to cause equal damage of alcohol and oil.  But time, and how dificult to extinguish or remove, are the keys that allow a GM to wisely adjudicate the affects.

If you allow the use of really hot burning gels, the plasma table may be appropriate.

[jdale]

There are lots of ways to do it. There are some amazing ideas in the book I linked, like explosives that self-ignite with the morning dew (using quicklime for ignition plus pitch and sulfur), and flamethrowers designed to eat through stone. You just wouldn't want to keep stuff that dangerous in your house for illumination.

In-game, it would be appropriate to need skills or spells to make it, and to pay a premium when buying it. Plus, because your typical medieval city is close-packed and highly flammable, it might not be permitted in town which will make it a little harder to find someone to make it for you.

I would be inclined to use typical mechanics. E.g. it makes an area that burns the same as Wall of Fire, or it attacks as a Fireball. Just balance the hazards of possession and difficulty of obtaining it versus the effectiveness you assign.

[Arioch]

Yeah, I think that using the Fireball table for anything that basically requires an alchemist (or a similar specialized craftsman) to be made it's a good idea.
And for less powerful things, I like Yamma suggestion, and I'll probably end up using something like that.
Does anyone knows if "official" rules for burning oil, etc. were ever given in any scenario or manual?

[Jacinto Pat]

Of course there are all sorts of other fun ways to keep players from fire bombing their way through every encounter --
Put them in a wet climate -- sorry it's pouring rain and your fuse goes out midflight
Put them in a really dry climate -- it hasn't really rained or snowed since Jan. & the pines are dying from pine bark infestations.  Your fire bomb does send the goblins screaming into the woods but it then explodes into a 15,000 acre wildfire literally overnight.
Supply issues -- liquids are heavy and clumsy.  They cannot carry enough for regular use away from a source of resupply.
Limited airsupply -- catacombs may not have enough air to keep the fire burning hot, and what ever time it does burn sucks oxygen away from the PCs.  Skeletons don't use much air, but a little more difficult for halflings. 
Meddling officials -- why are you riding into our wood town with military supplies that could accidently burn the place down?

[intothatdarkness]

Of course there are all sorts of other fun ways to keep players from fire bombing their way through every encounter --
Put them in a wet climate -- sorry it's pouring rain and your fuse goes out midflight
Put them in a really dry climate -- it hasn't really rained or snowed since Jan. & the pines are dying from pine bark infestations.  Your fire bomb does send the goblins screaming into the woods but it then explodes into a 15,000 acre wildfire literally overnight.
Supply issues -- liquids are heavy and clumsy.  They cannot carry enough for regular use away from a source of resupply.
Limited airsupply -- catacombs may not have enough air to keep the fire burning hot, and what ever time it does burn sucks oxygen away from the PCs.  Skeletons don't use much air, but a little more difficult for halflings. 
Meddling officials -- why are you riding into our wood town with military supplies that could accidently burn the place down?

Yeah. I never had a problem "regulating" use after that incident with the torch and the PC carrying many fire flasks.

[Arioch]

Of course there are all sorts of other fun ways to keep players from fire bombing their way through every encounter --
Put them in a wet climate -- sorry it's pouring rain and your fuse goes out midflight
Put them in a really dry climate -- it hasn't really rained or snowed since Jan. & the pines are dying from pine bark infestations.  Your fire bomb does send the goblins screaming into the woods but it then explodes into a 15,000 acre wildfire literally overnight.
Supply issues -- liquids are heavy and clumsy.  They cannot carry enough for regular use away from a source of resupply.
Limited airsupply -- catacombs may not have enough air to keep the fire burning hot, and what ever time it does burn sucks oxygen away from the PCs.  Skeletons don't use much air, but a little more difficult for halflings. 
Meddling officials -- why are you riding into our wood town with military supplies that could accidently burn the place down?

Great ideas!
I'll add my favourite: NPCs have access to everything you have access to 

[yammahoper]

An equally fun time involves what the fumble range on a molotov/improvised device should be, and what the affect of a fumble is.

Throwing a bottle of flamable liquid with nothing but a piece of flaming cloth stuffed into the neck is hazerdous at least imo.  What if the cloth comes out as it is thrown?

These weapons are unweildy at best and most effective when used from on high or ambush.  A fireball is far superior, which is why I did not have the exploding wine skins deliver concussion (though being on fire probably warrents 2d10 in hits per crit level to be honest).  I have no desire for such improvised attacks to become anything more than just that, which means used rarely and in certain circumstance (like defending or holding a fortified position).

[GrumpyOldFart]

Assuming non-magical incendiaries throughout, some cursory reading suggests to me that in order for it to move out of the "rare and expensive" niche you'll need one or both of two things:

1) A petroleum seep of some sort that the lightest "oils" can be skimmed from.

2) The state of "chemistry" to have moved beyond fermentation to distilling long enough ago that people uninvolved with brewing know about it.

#2 is actually much more important than #1. If distillation is advanced enough, you can get flammable liquids from LOTS of things.

[markc]

   IMHO once the idea got out someone would try and "Magic it". By that I mean an explosive that has a magical trigger and you attune to the device. The attunement prevents others from setting off the device and the magical trigger allows it to ignite in any environment, but of course staying lit is a problem unless the magical device provides oxygen for it to burn.


MDC

[JimiSue]

Your fire bomb does send the goblins screaming into the woods but it then explodes into a 15,000 acre wildfire literally overnight.

I think my players would say - "Yes, but at least we got the goblins." Quickly followed by "How much xp were they worth?"

As Grumps said. fractional distillation is the way to go, esp;ecially when you start adding pressure into it. In our world, Boyle's experiments pretty much paved the way to modern chemistry growing out of alchemy, back in the mid 1600s. That level of Renaissance tech is within the scope of a lot of campaigns. Modern oil refineries work by the fractional distillation of crude oil under pressure - and with magic around to assist in the pressure and heat generation, actual gasoline (which is mostly octane but has a ton of other more flammable hydrocarbons in it too) is not beyond the realms of possibility.

I do tend to find though that "Remember that if you use it, it will be used against you." has a very good self-regulation effect on PCs though.

[GrumpyOldFart]

If you wanted to be far enough off the deep end about applying magic as force to natural processes, you could effectively make a free-fall lab inside your hovel.

Distillation and cracking, perfect crystals, laminates, composites, nanotubes and buckyballs... sheesh, the mind reels.

[Jacinto Pat]

I think my players would say - "Yes, but at least we got the goblins." Quickly followed by "How much xp were they worth?"

Ah, but they are in the middle of the fire (or at least the supplies they use to have are)
Or they fire is blocking the way up the high passes, and won't stop burning until there is significant snow on the ground (can you tell I'm currently living in the middle of one of the worst fire seasons the Rockies have ever seen?)
Or, the rare animal they were sent to find is pretty assuredly no longer in the area
Or....

[yammahoper]

You are obviously my kind of GM Jacinto.  Always build off players actions.

BTW, stay safe.

[Marc R]

Yamma, meat burns at 1400, but fat auto ignites at 600 or below. . .and that's "vaporized and flame" it'll burn a lot lower than that with a wick effect. . .I rarely use realistic fire in gaming, but when you do it's super ugly. . .starting at "Can't breathe" and ending at "After one round of the enemy firing the flamethrower into the hole you were hiding in, you discover your body fat is liquified, soaked into your uniform, and afire."

In game I tend to scale the size of the fire, and apply a crit level to it akin to wall of fire effects. . .If I'm feeling mean I apply holding breath for smoke issues, or if really mean, poison RRs vs smoke with every 10% failed equaling a round of stun.