Author Topic: What is wrong with Rolemaster?  (Read 33099 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2012, 09:03:39 PM »
  IMHO, what ever the armor system is it would be great to have a good example or explanation of the Armor Type vs damage and Armor Type vs crit would be great.


 I hope that makes sense as I am watching Rush: Beyond the Lighted Stages and my attention is severely weighted towards the show.
MDC   
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2012, 12:25:46 AM »
 I would like to see better Poison and Disease rules based on Con instead of the level of the target.
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline RandalThor

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,116
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2012, 06:07:15 AM »
  IMHO, what ever the armor system is it would be great to have a good example or explanation of the Armor Type vs damage and Armor Type vs crit would be great.
That is another thing, an explanation/detailed description showing the effects of higher AT vs. lower would be nice. As opposed to cross-referencing across all the charts, which is a pain in the bu....errr... rear.


Quote
I hope that makes sense as I am watching Rush: Beyond the Lighted Stages and my attention is severely weighted towards the show.
MDC 
My brother wouldn't even bother trying to do something other than watch Rush, they are (or, were, at least) his favorite band.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,224
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2012, 06:51:41 AM »
I would like to see better Poison and Disease rules based on Con instead of the level of the target.
I don't know. Aside from the fact it needs two rolls whilst it could work with only one, I think the CON-based rules are pretty clear and simple. What RM misses is actual poisons using them, since all poisons are given with a level, meaning based on the RR rules, rather than the CON or luck rules, which is a pity. (Though you can just convert the poison's level into its CON-based strength, which allows for a variability of the lethality curve, as a linear function of the poison's level and depending on the x factor one chooses)

*uses an one-roll version based on the CON-based rules*
« Last Edit: June 29, 2012, 06:59:13 AM by OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol »
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline dutch206

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,019
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2012, 08:14:13 AM »
RM was my primary game from 1983-1988. We dropped the game because of the d100 roll-over mechanic. We just got sick of adding 76+19+54 (etc). I wish that mechanic would change, but I realize there is no chance of it.

I am assuming that you have never heard of "drunkards' math"?  (Round off to the nearest multiple of 5)
"Cthulhu is the bacon of gaming." -John Kovalic, author of "Dork Tower"

Offline RandalThor

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,116
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2012, 09:28:47 AM »
I would like to see better Poison and Disease rules based on Con instead of the level of the target.
MDC
I agree here - and this is just another way to start getting rid of the level/class thing that I have grown to not like, even though I can tolerate it in the RM sense. (But not the D&D sense, where too many things are directly tied to level.)

A Disease or Poison can have a Power Level, rated in a number like 90, 100, 120, 150, etc... and you take a character's Con bonus (x3) or, better yet: Con/Str/Con, as I believe an individuals mass helps in dealing with most poisons/diseases, plus any other mods like racial or situational as their total bonus. If they succeed, great if not, then they are affected by the disease or poison depending upon how poorly they fail. (Near success, failure, total failure, etc...)

I get that the level part of the equation is supposed to reflect them avoiding the poisoning (diseasing?) through greater experience and noticing something at the last second, but I don't think that makes too much sense. Especially since their level/experience is reflected in the skills they develop/use to defend against the methods of contact, such as stabbing (DB or OB with active defense0, a trap (Detect/Disarm Traps), etc...

And level really doesn't make sense in diseases; either you are exposed and have to deal with it, or not. There is very little experience that a fighter can have that will help him in avoiding an airborne disease the happens to be infecting the town he just entered. (Does he get his DB to avoid the spittle of the merchant that just coughed on him? Is the merchant getting a coughing attack roll?)
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline tolcreator

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2012, 10:36:36 AM »
IMHO the weapon attack tables are the heart and soul of RM. The +X DB for armour (+10 for leather, +60 for plate, etc), made me disappointed with Harp... and unlike Merp, it wasn't trivial to just replace the Harp attack tables with those from RM. I *love* the fact that full plate made you *easier* to hit, but harder to cripple or damage. And the fact that some weapons were much better can openers than others (hammers, maces, etc).

My "Problems" with RM:
- The soft leather armour death trap. I tell all my players to just ignore soft leather, go straight for hard leather instead. Fortunately for them, Goblins, Kobolds et al never got that memo. It's not a big problem, but it's a slight head scratcher.

- More interraction with Space Master. It'd be nice to have the space master armours included in arms law, and the Rolemaster armours included in Weapons law/blaster law/whatever.

I worry however that any attempt to "fix" or "improve" the attack tables will just kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, so these would be risky.

Offline Lord Garth

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2012, 10:53:40 AM »
- The soft leather armour death trap. I tell all my players to just ignore soft leather, go straight for hard leather instead. Fortunately for them, Goblins, Kobolds et al never got that memo. It's not a big problem, but it's a slight head scratcher.

I did away with AT 1-4 and use only a generic "Leather" for ATs 5-8 tbh.

Offline GrumpyOldFart

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,953
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Hey you kids! Get out of my dungeon!
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2012, 10:54:52 AM »
I would like to see better Poison and Disease rules based on Con instead of the level of the target.

Related to this, I'd like to see herbalism more closely tied to real world examples. The more clearly you can define the relationship between, say, a preparation of willow bark in the game world and an aspirin in the real world, the closer the agreement is between what the GM is describing and what the player thinks the GM is describing.

Quote
I *love* the fact that full plate made you *easier* to hit, but harder to cripple or damage. And the fact that some weapons were much better can openers than others (hammers, maces, etc).

Yeah, that.
You put your left foot in, you put your left foot out... Traditional Somatic Components
Oo Ee Oo Aa Aa, Ting Tang Walla Walla Bing Bang... Traditional Verbal Components
Eye of Newt and Toe of Frog, Wool of Bat and Tongue of Dog... Traditional Potion Formula

Offline pastaav

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,615
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Swedish gaming club
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2012, 04:04:46 AM »
Personally I think the AT problems can be solved by changing AT1 to AT2 as default armor. After this change only small tweaks are needed to make soft leather armor a viable option and the rest of the armors already make sense with AT2 as baseline. The problems with the AT system are very much tied to AT1 being too good to be true.

Actually I think there might be reason to look into the effects of wearing plater armor around the clock. Personally I have little problems with heavy armors giving plenty of benefit, but I do have lots of problem with a game claiming to be realistic lacking rules that describe the downsides of armor and shields.

Shields could perhaps need to provide more db, but they definitely need to cause penalties to other actions. The shield penalty should apply to all moving actions that does not explicitly state that shield use is compatible (for instance weapon skills). Possibly there should be penalty to static actions also if the shield is strapped to you arm (lock picking is harder if you have a shield strapped to your arm.

Likewise there should IMHO be rules that tell the effect of doing crazy stuff like sleeping in your plate armor, getting your armor on without a squire to assist and doing stuff in armor in warm weather. You can balance the benefits of armor pretty well by realism. The flat quickness penalty that don't consider the details of the situation is very against the design spirit of RM. Make the base rule that no penalties apply beyond the difficulty to get in and out of armor and give us extensive optional rules that show how armor impact different situations and we would get something that is far superior to the current RM.
/Pa Staav

Offline TAK

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2012, 07:45:58 AM »
I have a couple of YouTube playlists that might also explain some misconceptions about armor and shields, of course these are not about fantasy worlds, so YMMV.

YouTube: Armour
The last part especially is very good.

YouTube: Shield

Offline JimiSue

  • Seeker of Wisdom
  • **
  • Posts: 284
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2012, 08:25:53 AM »
RM was my primary game from 1983-1988. We dropped the game because of the d100 roll-over mechanic. We just got sick of adding 76+19+54 (etc). I wish that mechanic would change, but I realize there is no chance of it.
We are quite happy using calculators to do this, but when I was at school I used to use this kind of thing as one of the educational aspects of roleplaying to those who were sceptical (bearing in mind this was in the mid 80s and in the middle of the D&D = satanism argument), as it would give good practice to improving mental arithmetic. And mine still isn't great, but would have been a whole lot worse than it is now if I'd not been a gamer.


Quote from: randalthor
Quote from: marcc
I hope that makes sense as I am watching Rush: Beyond the Lighted Stages and my attention is severely weighted towards the show.
MDC 
My brother wouldn't even bother trying to do something other than watch Rush, they are (or, were, at least) his favorite band.
I'm a musician, and a quick study on instruments. I picked up the bass guitar and after a month or two stopped playing easy things like Bon Jovi and moved onto Iron Maiden for more challenging bass lines. After maybe a year, 18 months or so, I ran out of Maiden tracks and moved onto Rush. This was 20 years ago, and I'm still learning new things each time I stop fooling myself I can play a song and listen to it fresh. What I love most about them is that at a seemingly random place they will drop a minor variation in for rhythm and riff, and still play it seamlessly. Sometimes these little flicks are really subtle - the most recent one I've noticed is in Distant Early Warning - the last time the main riff comes through there is one part of it that suddenly breaks into a different rhythm entirely. They are pretty awesome. I may have to get Hemispheres out again now to see if I can still play the whole thing (unlikely, it's been a while!)

Offline SamwiseSeven

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 369
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Tim
    • Tim's RPG YouTube Channel
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2012, 09:37:29 AM »
I think for me the main detriment to running Rolemaster is the time needed to prep for games.
https://www.youtube.com/samwise7rpg

Offline providence13

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,944
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2012, 11:38:53 AM »
I think for me the main detriment to running Rolemaster is the time needed to prep for games.

This shows that you're a good GM.  :) You want to be prepared.

I on the other hand, am not above pulling out the NPC chart and modifying a few numbers here and there when needed. Encumbrance for NPC's (for instance) is laudable, but most of the time I give an estimate from experience.
  Now setting does take me a while, which is why I use Greyhawk; circa 550-600 cy. It's mostly done.
  If RM had a setting, I'd probably use it!

Like pastaav said, shields should give more penalties to maneuvers, except combat. On that note, I'd bet no one gives a penalty to OB/DB because the shield is in the off hand. According to the other rules, this would make sense. Not that I'm going to start.

AT1 and AT2 should definitely be swapped.

Lvl based RR's could easily be converted to penalties to RR instead of the need for a chart. They could just be -20RR, for instance. I do like 3x Co or Co/St/Co..
"The Lore spell assaults your senses- Roll on the spontaneous human combustion table; twice!"

Offline RandalThor

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,116
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2012, 11:52:50 AM »
  If RM had a setting, I'd probably use it!
Have you heard of Shadow World? It has been the main RM world for 20+ years. (And better than Greyhawk, imo, though I do like GH as well.)
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,617
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2012, 01:27:07 PM »
I think for me the main detriment to running Rolemaster is the time needed to prep for games.
This sounds, mostly, like a personal preference.  It is entirely possible to play RM off the cuff, you just need to be comfortable tossing together a few stats for foes at a moments notice.

Quote
"...d100 roll-over mechanic. We just got sick of adding 76+19+54 (etc"

A roll of 76 would not be a roll-over roll.  96-100 are your roll over numbers.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline TAK

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 69
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2012, 02:03:03 PM »
I think for me the main detriment to running Rolemaster is the time needed to prep for games.

Oh hai there! :worthy: You seem to be popping up all over the place these days ;D

As Cory said, it's fully possible to run RM without any prep. Now of course this demands a lot of the GM as far as imagination and improvisation, but as I've mentioned before (in YouTube comments at least), this is how I've always played and we started with RM2.

And also, as I've said before, in RM it tends to be more about the setting and living in it than combat, as combat tends to be so brutal that you really don't wanna go doing dungeon crawls. And once combat is out of the way, you get left with 1 or maybe 2 tables that will cover all your skill rolls.

I really should get on with making those RM videos, to show how simple the system actually is, but I just don't know where I would get the time from and I would still need to buy that damn video editing software (yes, I did finally get a tripod, tho it hasn't arrived yet).

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,617
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2012, 02:14:20 PM »
There are two issues that, to a degree, are at odds with each other.

Obviously bringing the camps together is a stated goal.  Pulling the parts of RM2/RMC and RMSS/RMFRP that both groups like, trying to find reasonable modifications to parts that one or the other HATES, and redoing stuff both sides dislike, and leaving alone the stuff that works is obviously the direction that should be taken there.  In my opinion this will be difficult.  You have to make the system attractive enough for both camps to abandon what they have now (likely their own version they've created over the years) to collectively use the same system now.

It's hard for me to say if this is just a pipe dream or not.  We here on these forums are probably more experienced gamers and more hard core RM users.  I have a hard time believing ICE will get the buy-in from fans like us until the new system has the variety of material that RMSS or RM2 have.  We have our books, we have our home brew version of RM, and many of us are perfectly comfortable pulling bits and pieces from elsewhere and converting it over to RM.  It's gonna be a REALLY hard sell to that group.  But are we representative of the majority of the existing customer base?  That's a hard question to answer.

However, if RM is to survive it needs new customers.  More people than not think ICE ceased to exist after the first bankruptcy in my experience.  I have not run into a single game store owner in Washington state that didn't think ICE was dead when I initially talked to them - even the ones still with some old ICE products stocked.  The second incarnation of ICE really did nothing pro-active to remedy that from what I could tell.  At one point they started asking for info on local gaming stores on their forums... but what they needed to do was get off their rear and start doing some research themselves and contacting the major specialized gaming stores in each state to let them know ICE is alive and see if they'd be willing to order a token amount of product just so that it was on the shelves for visibilities sake.  If ICE had simply shown up to GenCon - even if they went ultra cheap: drive up, sleep in your car, share a small booth with someone!  That would have been the best single one shot advertising they could have given themselves.  My point?  One of the primary things that was wrong with RM was their marketing efforts - or lack thereof.  That needs to change in a big way with the new ICE.

The other problem with getting new customers is RM has endured a fairly negative reputation overall.  The reputation is mostly undeserved in my opinion, but the fact remains that it will be a hurdle none the less.  Therefore a new version needs to be simplified where at all possible without losing "what is Rolemaster".  Opinions on that can vary, but there are some basics that just about every RM user can agree on.  So one of the other major things wrong with RM is that it has to overcome it's reputation (deserved or not).  Something else that I believe could help here is an effort should possibly be made to compare it to D&D.  I really don't understand the "math is hard" criticisms leveled at RM.  There really are not many, sometimes even less, rolls made in RM in comparison to D&D and adding up a d100+mods instead of a d20+mods is vastly harder? REALLY? I find that opinion, summed up in a single word, disappointing.  It's basic math one more digit out.  Stuff like this needs to be pointed out to potential customer and the added flavor (i.e. realism?) needs to go along with that...
...something like...
"D&D: I cast a fireball. [rolls 6d6]. I do XX damage."
"RM: I cast a fireball. [rolls 2d10]. I do XX damage, my foe is knocked to the ground, and is now on fire burning at a rate of 5 hits per round until extinguished."
Which sounds more fun?

But... if you go too simple you start losing some of the core customer base.

As to what is actually wrong with Rolemaster as a system in itself?

There are not many things I consider just plain 'wrong' with Rolemaster, but there are some areas that could use improvement.

I'd like to see how the spell system works modified a bit.  I wouldn't want it to go as far as HARP, cause that's far too generic for my tastes, but it would be nice to not see the constant repeating of a certain spell within a list and instead just give a way to increase it's power/strength like HARP does.  Professions need to keep their own specialized spell access, that is very important to me.  It's a huge part of what makes professions unique.

I have no real problem with the AT system and believe the separation of damage reduction and actual DB is one of the best aspects of RM combat.  High armors adding more DB is too simplistic and RM does a far better job of representing armor than systems which do that.

Shields could use some re-doing.  This is one of the VERY few areas where some expansion, rather than simplification, is in order.

It would be nice to simplify the attack tables and how they interact with the critical hit charts, but there is a difficult balance of ease of use and acceptable variety.

Separate Race from Culture.  Don't think I need to explain that much, but make it possible for a Human to be raised in an Elven society - meaning your Race is Human but your "Adolescence" package is Elven.

For the love of all that is holy dump exhaustion points.  Not sure if they even need to be replaced, but it might be possible to come up with an action point system (kinda like a spell casters power points) that would interact with my following point...

Give arms users a reason to continue developing weapon skills.  What I'd like to see is a Combat Style system somewhat similar to the Martial Arts Companion expanded to include all Pure Arms Users.  Doesn't have to exactly like it, but it needs to grant more benefits as you reach the higher ranks in a weapon or combat maneuver.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 02:29:37 PM by Cory Magel »
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline yammahoper

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,858
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Nothing to see here, move along.
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2012, 06:11:00 PM »
I think it's far to late for suggestions to make the revision.  Already deep into the editing phase was what I read.  Those decisions, of what is going in and what will be changed, are long made and now written.

Patience.  Wait and see.  Then we can all comment ourselves blue.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,617
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: What is wrong with Rolemaster?
« Reply #59 on: July 01, 2012, 01:08:22 AM »
Deep in editing yes, but not play-tested based on various posts.  A lot can potentially change when that happens.

When I worked at WotC my dept consistently defeated the M:TG R&D team in in-house tournaments.  As a result they would ask us to help them play-test new "Magic: The Gathering" (M:TG) editions and we nearly always very quickly found problems the R&D team did not.  Often times the creators are too close to the game to spot potential problems due to the fact that they intend one thing and therefore to not see the things they did not intend... and RM is far, far more complex than Magic.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss