Topic: Using teleport spells on enemies

[bennis1980]

Similar to Maeglin's question about igniting a foe's cloak:

How would other GMs deal with a spellcaster who wants to cast teleport on an unwilling foe (apart from a RR of course)? I have a player who likes to try this every so often, teleport an enemy as high up in the air as possible. He mostly fails (i apply a +50RR mod for improper use of the spell), but he mostly gives out that I am dealing with it unfairly.

Has anyone else encountered this?

[jaranka]

Teleport is a Utility spell.

"U - Utility spell. These spells only affect the caster, a willing target, or a target incapable of resistance."

It's a cool idea, but not allowed by the rules.

[providence13]

Totally agree with jaranka. I don't allow Utility spells to be offensive.

bennis1980, I recommend that you have a talk with the guy. Let him know that Spell Type is going to be by the rules from now on.
"..only affect the caster, a willing target, or a target incapable of resistance." If target is KO'd or completely bound (you could kill them anyway), I allow it. Other GM's may not or just give a +100RR.

Otherwise, as soon as you guys sit down for the next game, ask them to make a RR. If they fail, then make them roll their own Impact crit from "as high up in the air as possible". Tell them (or not) there was an invisible Mage casting Teleport from the bushes... Why yes, he has been studying the exact spot 3 miles above the ground so that he's familiar with the teleport location.
In other words, do they want it to happen to them! Goose/Gander

Even if they get skilled enough to Spell Master or use Arcane or whatever- and make the spell offensive, it's now a Force spell, which would get a RR. But both of those options are dang risky.

Summoner's have Teleportal in their Base List. This is a F spell (RR) and the higher level versions can make you be sucked through a portal but the destination is within 10' of the caster and they must have cast a previous spell just to get a "lock" on you. Still not a good offensive spell.

Now you could try to Spell Master a Telekinesis to increase the max weight, but it would be costly, risky, slow, require concentration (50%Act) and they'd still get an RR. I give Demons in my world juiced up Telekinesis. They like throwing objects (like people) into walls. But you still get an RR.

OR have the player use Spell Research to make a new offensive F type of Teleport/Leaving spell. No, on second thought, don't give them any ideas. 
 

[markc]

Teleport is a Utility spell.

"U - Utility spell. These spells only affect the caster, a willing target, or a target incapable of resistance."

It's a cool idea, but not allowed by the rules.

+1
MDC

[yammahoper]

Back in RM1, there were very little guidelines or official rule sectios to refer to.  teleport was F and there were not weight limitation rules that I recall (admittedly i went a solid year playing RM1 without touching the spell system because in my MERP, magic was almost non existent in spell list form).  Yet the day came when a player had the Teleport spell...and used it to teleport ships attacking the coast. 

That was my first raping by a player.  It made a strong enough impression that I avoided many, many more attempts, with Chucks use of Arcane Spell Failure as a planned form of execution being the second time a player bagged and tagged me.

[Old Man]

Just say No

(Teleport, Leap, Land, etc)

[Usdrothek]

Say no way. Those rules are there for exactly that reason, other wise utility spells are way overpowered.

[GrumpyOldFart]

That's the real point. Teleport is what, a 10th level spell? Compare to 10th level attack spells.

IIRC, Lightning Bolt is 12th. Directed Spell skill + bonuses -DB = what chance of an instant 1 shot kill from a lightning bolt? Compared to the chance of an instant 1 shot kill from teleporting someone 10 miles per level straight up? And at that he's being nice, it could just as easily be 10 mi/lv straight down. So what if you're unfamiliar with your target area?

The level of the spell has to place it so that it corresponds fairly well with the deadliness of other spells of comparable level. An 'attack teleport' is so likely to be lethal I'd have it *at least* at 25th level or so, maybe as high as 50th.

[munchy]

Oh, we had so much fun with this one ... for some time. We allowed it for a couple of sessions until someone bothered to look up the U type spell rules again.
Definitely WAY too powerful to be used as an attack spell ... but so much fun!

[GrumpyOldFart]

I can actually see the sense in allowing some form of 'attack teleport'... but it would either be a lot higher than 10th level, or it would be a lot less powerful than the standard Utility teleport... or both.

If you want to put it in terms of setting logic rather than game mechanics logic, consider that teleport has to affect every single atom of the target's existence in an extremely fundamental way... in other words, a very large alteration of reality. If it's being cast on a sentient target, especially a species capable of learning spellcasting itself, you're doing that alteration on something that can and probably often does impose its own choices on the nature of the reality it inhabits.

And you expect to make this major alteration in reality at 10th level, against a target that can change reality to suit its own priorities in spite of you... with a range of 10 mi./level? With no RR? Or even with a standard RR, considering that fear of falling is one of the most universal denominators of land life?

Shyeah, right. Pull the other one.

[GrumpyOldFart]

And in case you're wondering, yes, I do consider an 'attack teleport' to be a much larger alteration of reality than a mere lightning bolt springing from your fingertips. You can get a small scale (very small scale) version of that just by walking across a carpet in a dry climate and coming near a metal object. In other words, no matter how large a change it is, it's a change of degree, not of kind.

[jdale]

There have to be some limits on what it can do. E.g. not teleporting into solid rock. An offensive Leaving spell might be better than Teleport. There still will be situations where it is situationally powerful (e.g. fighting next to a 1000' cliff) but in general the most severe effect will be a +50 fall attack (assuming 50' Leaving). That's more severe than it sounds because criticals start so low on the fall table (in the 30's - so +50 is almost an automatic critical). Might even be better to start with 20' Leaving. You could extend the range but require the target must appear on solid ground, then it's more tactical.

Tactically it could be interesting if it was a "castling" spell where the caster and target exchange positions. Or the target must be transported to the caster's location (e.g. within 10' of the caster).

[Usdrothek]

Gee. Leaving comes in pretty early on the spell tables.

Forget bolts and jolts and all that, those utility spells would be the number 1 offensive spell for casters.

BTW, teleporting someone into solid rock would stun the caster, even if it were allowed.

[Kristen Mork]

Gee. Leaving comes in pretty early on the spell tables.

Forget bolts and jolts and all that, those utility spells would be the number 1 offensive spell for casters.

BTW, teleporting someone into solid rock would stun the caster, even if it were allowed.

Yup, back in our RM2 days we made Leaving effectively a U spell (target must be willing) because the Magician determined that Leaving 100' into the air was much more powerful than a silly Water Bolt.  These days (playing RMSS), not only are these U spells (per the RAW), but I also put the target in control of the destination.  That means even Fighters have a reason to develop Targeting skill to gain precise control over the destination.

[bennis1980]

Thanks for all the replies. I completely agree that something needed to be done with this style of play ... but ...

I don't like limiting what a character can do in roleplay. I know there are strict rules on utility spells and all that, but what about the strict rule about breaking rules  . We are trying to leave reality aside for a bit. So I would nearly prefer to slap a -200 penalty onto something which is deemed "impossible" and let the player decide - sure why do some of us play the lottery?

I'm surprized that there isn't already a teleport attack spell though.

[jdale]

Peter Mork's interpretation seems like a good solution if you want to allow type U spells to be cast on someone else: they get to decide the target. That can apply to spells like Leaving but also to a spell like the type U "Ignite" spell: by sending the spell into the target's aura, you give them control of it. So they get to decide what catches on fire in that case.

It actually increases the utility of these spells (by letting you use them on allies) without making them offensive. But probably still needs a penalty to make up for the increased utility.

[providence13]

Maybe it's generous, but I do allow PC's to cast U spells on each other in the heat of battle. Maybe they recognize the specific aura from their caster friend. Or all U spells have a specific 'feel' and you can tell if it's friendly. If not, the spell just doesn't work. Sometimes I enforce a 10%Act/word to talk in combat; or just count the seconds out loud while they're chatting. This usually stops the conversation since we use 6 sec rnds.
 
So players will say "Do you accept the Teleport?" (or whatever) leaving 10%Act to use a stored spell. And most of the time they allow the translocation. Sometimes, the target wants to finish his actions/attacks and won't allow it. "Dangit! I've been prepping this attack for 3 rnds!" I ain't movin'."

  I also enforce a Situation Awareness: Translocation roll as described in SoHK. This can greatly reduce your %Act for the rest of the rnd..

The only problem I've had with the "target deciding destination" is when the target hasn't studied the location. PC's were being overrun by giant spiders and the Mage casts Teleport V. He just shouts "Teleport!" When only the caster knows the destination, does everyone roll?
 

[yammahoper]

I had an artifact once that was keyed to cast teleport (1200 miles straight up) when touched by an non Ess user.  It was a level 120 attack.  Later I changed the spell to "gate target" and to random dimension, in part because a player pointed out teleport was a U spell.  This was after the Warrior Monk picked it up and was "lost in Space."

Needless to say, they were less than thrilled with my alteration too.

[jaranka]

Is it true that if you make yourself a willing target for a spell that you become a willing target for all spells cast on your that round?  I can't remember where I heard/read that.

Maybe it's generous, but I do allow PC's to cast U spells on each other in the heat of battle. [...] Sometimes I enforce a 10%Act/word to talk in combat;

This doesn't seem generous it seems like how it's supposed to work.  I agree that the target of the spell would need to know that it's a friendly incoming spell before he would let his resistances down.  A little %action doesn't hurt, it gives them something to use for that extra 25% action they get the round they cast the spell.  Or that 10% action left over from preparation the round before.

[markc]

  I rule that you get to chose if you wan to accept each spell, I do not say that you open yourself up to all spells that round if you decide to accept a spell.
  Very good question thought and I can see how some GM"s might rule that way.

MDC