Author Topic: RM combat in three dimensions?  (Read 2941 times)

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Offline DangerMan

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RM combat in three dimensions?
« on: June 21, 2012, 08:10:39 AM »
How do you handle fly spells and combat?

In our circle / groups we've until recently had what I have always assumed was a silent agreement not to open the pandora's box of using fly spells in combat; i.e. durig fights, though we've always have had several mages, all PCs and NPCs alike have stayed on the ground, save for entering or leaving. That was until last night.

The current group is at 10th lvl and thus the arcanist can cast seriuos fly spells on all the PCs. Last night we had 4 PCs flying around firing missiles and bolts from the air, going down to deliver melee attacks and flying right back up and out of range to get rid of stun rounds, flying over the heads of NPC to get behind and get rear attack etc etc.

Of course, "what ever the PCs can do, the NPCs can do as well". However, Im not sure Im ready to GM RM combat in three dimensions and having to keep track of, say, ten flying tenth level PCs and NPCs.
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Offline markc

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2012, 08:35:44 AM »
 What RM system are you using?
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Offline DangerMan

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2012, 08:37:22 AM »
RMSS / FRP, with combat having two 50 % phases.
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Offline markc

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2012, 08:43:21 AM »
 In RMSS you use Combat Flying skill as you would use Mounted Combat skill to limit their OB, I also at times require acrobatics rolls for the PC's to perform the actions they would like to do. So in essence it might take 2 extra skills just like combat from a horse does.
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Offline DangerMan

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2012, 08:48:02 AM »
In RMSS you use Combat Flying skill as you would use Mounted Combat skill to limit their OB, I also at times require acrobatics rolls for the PC's to perform the actions they would like to do. So in essence it might take 2 extra skills just like combat from a horse does.
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Nah.. I know these players. They would simply boost these skills in every possible way, at the expense of what ever skill you dont use to kill critters, and that would not improve on our game  ;D
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2012, 08:52:33 AM »
Every 15' of movement equals 1mph in a RM melee round.

Most fly spells do not allow for very quick movement.  75' a round is SLOW, especially for fighting, were very quick movemnts are called for.  To fight normally, a PC is probably required to move at speeds equivalent to 100' a round, even if they declare no movemnt as activity.  Dodging, parrying, avoiding other combatants, reflexive reactions.  A fly spell would hinder combat in many ways, though far less if the PC can start and stop and hover.  Most GM's I have met do not allow this, with circleing like an airplane the only option to "stay in one place".

So constant, fairly slow movement would make many movents impossible and predictable.  Flipping over someone to get behind them is probably not likely when limited to 5mph.  So is zooming straight up to get out of reach.  There is no zooming at 5mph.

Another aspect is orientation.  Keeping balance will be a major issue.  Being struck will tend to knock a flyer off balance.

Both feet on the ground serves as a vital platform to push off from and generate force, something a flying PC at a slow 5mph will lack.  The speed is to slow to replace the leverage gained from "toe to toe" combat.

So, easy fix is to demand an athletic skill: Flying.  Any skill used while flying cannot exceed the flying skill.  If your fly skill is 64, then your OB is 64.  In addition, hits delivered are halved and max at St mod.  All missile combat suffers an innate -30+Ag mod, while crossbows suffer no penalty but take at least three times to load (they may require landing actually).  All melee combat is at -50+Ag mod.

Additionally, being struck while flying results in an additional unbalance crit, rolled seperately.  Normally the crit will be one severity less than normal, with A crits resolved at -25.  However, large attacks resolve crits equal to crit landed, and huge attacks resolve crit one severity higher.

When orientation checks are required, they are default hard, and don't forget the additional -20 for being in melee.

Most warrior types carry more than one weapon, and should always have something to throw, if not shoot.  75' a round is a very brisk walking pace, or a slow jog, so there is no reason for attacks against them to be that dificult.

When balance and orientation mnvs fail, the PC falls, at 32' per second per second.  This means most will hit the ground in two to three seconds if they were staying in melee and spell casting range.  The fall/crush table is one of the most powerful attack tables in RM, partly because falling is so very, very dangerous.  Use the table.

Under no circumstance am I suggesting you be unfair or fudge to stop them.  let the dice fall were they may.  However, flying is dangerous and limiting your movent in combat is extra dangerous and fighting while flying certainly sounds very dificult to me.  Finding trainers for air combat is likely impossible, so PC's won't be able to learn these skills until later in levels.  That will slow them down, maybe even stop them.   But...

They may decide to play nice, follow the rules and devolop the skills needed (flying, acrobatics, etc).  That is ok.  From the start here you should be stressing that melee combat is extremely dificult to perform while flying.  Missile and spell casting is tactically superior.  They should get the idea after you unviel your new rules for flying in melee.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2012, 09:00:28 AM »
Nah.. I know these players. They would simply boost these skills in every possible way, at the expense of what ever skill you dont use to kill critters, and that would not improve on our game  ;D

So you start making those "what ever skill you dont use to kill critters" skills important to succeeding in the given scenario.

Quote
75' a round is SLOW...

75'/rd, 6 rds per minute, 60 minutes to the hour, 5280' to the mile, so...

75 * 6 * 60 = 27,000

27,000/5,280 = 5.114 mph... which is almost exactly the same as average human walking speed.

So... does a flying player going at a casual stroll above the melee really think he's not a good target?
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Offline DangerMan

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2012, 09:06:35 AM »
Thanks for the replies, guys! I will dig into yours later, Yamma.

Flying III in arcane companions yields 300 ' / rnd, IIRC.

Grumpy: I could of course cut down on the combat and make diplomacy the most important skill in the game, but Im not sure that would be fun for anyone  ;D

My main concern here is keeping track of several flying combatants, not as much as the power level of our game. The latter is a long lost case... :o

Im also thinking one could change the duration of all fly spells to C?
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Offline Lord Garth

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2012, 09:12:35 AM »
and flying right back up and out of range to get rid of stun rounds

A complete no-no in my games. If you are stunned you can't fly out to get rid of stun rounds.


Offline yammahoper

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2012, 09:16:28 AM »
and flying right back up and out of range to get rid of stun rounds

A complete no-no in my games. If you are stunned you can't fly out to get rid of stun rounds.

If stunned you tend to come crashing down in mine.

Deal with flight like mounted combat, with the flight spell being the mount.  Some focus, concentration, activity and skill IS required.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2012, 09:49:51 AM »
In mine every round of stunned flight is a stunned maneuver. Players tend not to chance getting stunned unless they're way, way high up, so they have time to recover before they splatter. Failed stunned maneuvers do bad things when you're too close to the ground.
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Offline markc

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2012, 10:09:18 AM »
and flying right back up and out of range to get rid of stun rounds

A complete no-no in my games. If you are stunned you can't fly out to get rid of stun rounds.

If stunned you tend to come crashing down in mine.

Deal with flight like mounted combat, with the flight spell being the mount.  Some focus, concentration, activity and skill IS required.


 I do the same and stun is a big thing in flying combat.


Meaglin,
 You stated that you are trying to keep track of several flying combatants, can you expand on this? Is your problem here the various height's of combatants and their speeds? If so then the easiest thing to do is keep a record sheet with that info like you wold in a fighter type RPG or board game.
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Offline providence13

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2012, 11:20:44 AM »
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=1202.0

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=4089.msg55750#msg55750


http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=11464.msg144590#msg144590

There are several good discussions on flight and combat. I welcome each one as there's always more to talk about/learn for me.

For our games, you won't drop while flying if you are stunned or KO'd. If it takes one of your actions, %Act, thinking about it, (whatever your system) to move around on two legs, then it takes the same for flying. The spell prohibits walking. So when you stop willing yourself along, you stop moving. You don't grind to a halt but nothing is pushing you along anymore. I'd really suggest some sort of accel/decel rules.

Since you have to spend %Act to move, then you have less to spend on anything else. You said your system was 2 50% phases/rnd, so this might not be the same for you.
  My group has to crunch some numbers to fly and shoot bows.
Missile weapons are 30-60%Act so that doesn't leave very much %Act for movement. I've no doubt that your players can rattle off the numbers, but it helped us to make a chart of the different Fly spells and %Act needed to move X distance/rnd.

Fly I is 75'/rnd, so to move 75' requires 100%Act! The listed rate for Fly movement is the equivalent of a Dash for me. You can't go faster (with out Spell Mastery, Research, etc).  You won't be flying too far if you want to do anything else that rnd.

My Mage PC's learned that if they want to Fly and do anything else, they'd have to cast at least a Fly III. Most of the time they 'Store a Fly True. Fly III is 300'/rnd mx, so their range is restricted if they want to cast a standard spell for 75%Act while flying. Moving 150' with Fly III is 50%Act of their round. Moving 75' is 25%Act, etc. If you want more %Act, my players use Haste.

I too think OB/Dir Spell, etc should be limited by Acrobatics like Two weapon Combat. But we didn't begin like this, so the cat is out of the bag.

I recommend making a maneuver roll to maintain invisibility for the faster Fly spells. That's a lot of air rushing past you and you might hit a bug. Stumbling or "sudden actions" can negate invis so I think the precedent is there. When the players balked, I showed them the invis rules and asked them if they really wanted the opposition to be invis, flying and slinging lightning bolts..? It can be possible. But you better be Hasted with Fly True, ace the Maneuver roll and definitely not moving far that round.

You can walk, crawl, move away from someone while stunned, so I'd let you fly away while stunned. But %Act/movement may be limited for various stuns.

For RMSS/FRP Acrobatics is a good skill to deal with Flying (from Fly, levitation spells), SoHK pg 20.

For tracking flyers,
The little plastic pieces that set in the middle of pizza boxes are good to keep under miniatures to represent flying. Anything to set them off the table. I covered the game table with white fabric that I permanent marker'd a grid. This is then topped with a sheet of glass. We use dry erase markers for maps, notes, init, etc. With the flyers setting on a plastic riser, upside down cup etc, and the speed and altitude written beside them, it's easier to keep track of everything.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2012, 12:13:20 PM »
Let me put it this way. My players have learned that when fighting an airborne dragon, all you have to do is stun it and it's grounded, and possibly badly injured by its own mass and speed. Consider that if you are on the ground and in its range, it's likely to be 100' or less from the ground and, if it's incoming rather than leaving, is almost certainly in a (probably shallow) dive.

If it just continues its present trajectory for more than a few seconds, it lands. If it tries to climb and fails the stunned maneuver, it stalls. If there is a high tree canopy, its problems aren't nearly so far away as ground level.

I suppose a lot would depend on whether you think characters using magical flight can stall or not... or for that matter whether, if they are stunned, they have to roll to maintain the flight magic at all. A stunned magical flyer could have all the wonderful aerodynamic qualities of a thrown halfbrick.
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Offline bpowell

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2012, 01:41:23 PM »
Due to a character in the game I run inventing an item that allows them to fly, I have had to use 3-D combat a few times.  Normally it is just like normal combat.  We use magnetic gaming disks to show distance above the ground.  Then we use Pythagorean theorem to calculate the range (remember when you at in HS geometry class and swore that would NEVER come in handy).   I mostly have a chart showing distances and height to generate range.

Control of the flight during combat is critical.  And the affects of stuns can be deadly.  To date the character has dodged dying from a ground impact, but it just a mater of time.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2012, 02:45:43 PM »
Unless you're in a very open area against foes with no ranged attacks, flight is not that powerful. Foes will use trees and buildings for shelter to prevent exposing themselves to hit-and-soar tactics and in missile exchanges, those in the air have no cover. And if they're using Arcane to power their flight, they'll eventually blow themselves up.

I don't agree with falling or having to keep moving. This isn't aerodynamic flight; it's a magical spell and the pace of the slower spells is far too slow to keep a human aloft with airplane wings. Hovering should work. You should be able to move straight up when stunned, subject to the limitations of stun itself. Requiring a maneuver roll would be appropriate. Note that if you were engaged in melee, you'll need to beat the foe's initiative to avoid a parting shot.

Dispels will make flying individual drop and any foe with that ability is going to use it.

If you're having balance problems, it isn't due to flight. It's due to using Arcane Companion and Spell Mastery (only way I can see a 10th level Arcanist getting everyone flying in a reasonable amount of time unless the group is setting an ambush).
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Offline DangerMan

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2012, 04:04:47 PM »
Okay. I've got loads of input to work with. Thanks again guys!

If you're having balance problems, it isn't due to flight. It's due to using Arcane Companion and Spell Mastery (only way I can see a 10th level Arcanist getting everyone flying in a reasonable amount of time unless the group is setting an ambush).

It was indeed an ambush situation.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2012, 05:43:12 PM »
Quote
I don't agree with falling or having to keep moving. This isn't aerodynamic flight; it's a magical spell and the pace of the slower spells is far too slow to keep a human aloft with airplane wings. Hovering should work. You should be able to move straight up when stunned, subject to the limitations of stun itself.

True, it's not aerodynamic flight, so it actually shouldn't be possible to stall. The risks IMO would be if you're stunned so badly that you lose the spell entirely, and suddenly you're not flying, you're falling. In theory that won't be a problem with a mass spell controlled by a single caster... unless that single caster is stunned and loses control, in which case everyone falls. Or (if you control your own flight) that you're stunned badly enough that you don't control your flight (as opposed to the spell), in which case which direction you go and how fast may not be up to you. You want to go straight up? What if you don't know what direction that is?

 :o

Aerodynamic flight or not, if you're stunned while in a dive, every second you spend "shaking off the stun" is a second you spend still in a dive.
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Offline Lord Garth

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2012, 05:59:43 AM »
I don't agree with falling or having to keep moving. This isn't aerodynamic flight; it's a magical spell and the pace of the slower spells is far too slow to keep a human aloft with airplane wings. Hovering should work. You should be able to move straight up when stunned, subject to the limitations of stun itself. Requiring a maneuver roll would be appropriate. Note that if you were engaged in melee, you'll need to beat the foe's initiative to avoid a parting shot.

The way we play it is not to have stunned foes (or PCs for the matter) fall when stunned during a flight. We simply play it so that even though it's magical it requires quite a lot of concentration to use. Thus, if you are stunned you are almost static. We haven't ever ruled you lose your QU DB (which is something you could argue for) either. You simply lack the ability to go from A to B.

Offline Dougansf

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Re: RM combat in three dimensions?
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2012, 05:16:22 PM »
For tracking flyers,
The little plastic pieces that set in the middle of pizza boxes are good to keep under miniatures to represent flying. Anything to set them off the table. I covered the game table with white fabric that I permanent marker'd a grid. This is then topped with a sheet of glass. We use dry erase markers for maps, notes, init, etc. With the flyers setting on a plastic riser, upside down cup etc, and the speed and altitude written beside them, it's easier to keep track of everything.

This is a great idea!!!

In various games, I've placed a d6 under the figure to imply elevation.  You could go so far as to put another die nearby to display specific height, but for the most part that's the job of the flying PC.  We only figure out the hypotenuse on particularly long shots (or if it's near a range penalty break).

As others have stated, Fly spells are not aerodynamic flight.  We see it as a spell that allows you to control your location in 3 dimensional space at a certain speed.  So there is no inertia, no minimum % action, and you can't "sprint" with it.

Mount a flying horse or Shapechange into an Air Elemental or Dragon however, and you can sprint and play with inertia for charges/stoops.  Stuns are a serious problem for winged flight.

We use the Fly/Glide skill and Airborne Combat to limit your OB skills, just like Mounted Combat.  Both skills are separated into subcategories for type of flight (Fly Spell, Air Elemental Form, etc).  Over a long enough time, certain people will break off, and others will stick with these skills.  But expect a few token ranks.

My Air Champion uses a Longbow, and hangs out just above 100ft up, to be out of range of most offensive spells.  All the same, I have several skills and items ready to act for my inevitable fall from the skies.  :)