Topic: The effects of magic on technology (Any RM)

[dutch206]

In deciding on the Tech level of your campaign world, you only have the real world tech levels as a guideline (ie, Stone, Bronze, Iron, etc...).  However, in a world where magic is possible, things must be different.

I can imagine elevators powered by levitation spells, light spells activated by the flick of a wall switch, houses heated and cooled by Elemental Shields spells, hot and cold water due to Fire Law spells, and so on.

The Roman Empire had buildings with indoor plumbing, and the mideastern port city of Ceasarea had a sea wall made of hydraulic concrete.

I guess what I am getting at is, who says the middle ages has to be the setting for a fantasy campaign?

[markc]

 I agree. But also one of the problems "we" have is that a lot of our inventions arose out of humanity trying to solve a problem and make life better. Or just a plane old accident spits out a solution to an old problem and suddenly life is much better. What I am trying to say is that it is hard to project what it would be like if magic was available to solve everyday problems.


 Having said that I often think (ok not often but occasionally) about how I would solve problems if I had RM magic. I think light for most of the people would be a big thing and after that I see magic applying to do "work" or aid in work if you cannot simply create what you need with magic.


 As for a setting I can see magic in almost any setting or era or Tech era and it can be fun if you have an open mind.
MDC 

[yammahoper]

It is the fall of civilizations, before the invention of the printing press, that has resulted in such a long climb out of "the darkness".

Rome had the engineering levels to make modern concrete, excellent buildings, roads and the famous aquaducts.  What Rome lacked was science.

With science, Rome could have made steam engines, telegraphs and electricity.  Rome had little science and knew nothing of microbiology.  At its height, if Rome had science, it could easily have looked like 1850's America.

Magic would replace science.  It would become a science in its own right.  After all, anything that is repeatable under the same stresses over and over again is predictable.  Cast this spell so many times with this spell, and you have a constant light spell, that can be triggered (as already noted before).  The same with an auto doc that cast auto heal spells, or perhaps triggered by inserting coin into the strong box/slot.  The level one analyisis spell may indeed be free, or provided on the cheap (5cp) but free as part of the service charge if services are purchased.

We have had this conversation in other threads: all game systems frame magic within a scientific process.  It is all very Harry Potter.  Every mage around the world can learn Fire Law, and it has the exact same spells.  Talent, the right words and motions, and poof, the same spell, every time.

So the science of magic is inherient in the science of our games and modern society.  We try to use magic in our games as magic, but the feat can only be accomplished though story telling and a willingness to suspend disbelief.

[GrumpyOldFart]

One of the most worrisome things for me when trying to look at consequences of tweaking the magic system (any game, any setting) is what I call the Perpetual Motion Paradox.

It's been a while since I've looked at my RM books, but IIRC, Boil Liquid is a pretty low level spell. And all it takes is a Boil Liquid and a Permanent spell to make a steam engine that never needs fuel. And I mean never, like "until the entropy death of the universe" kind of never. Add a Permanent to a Condensation spell at the exhaust vent for the steam, and it'll never need water either. And it'll work just as well for the guy who finds it 100,000 years after the original owner's civilization last existed.

To be sure, Permanent is a 50th level spell IIRC. But that just means any 50th level Essence spellcaster, or anyone who can afford to hire one, is a potential world wrecker, no?

[yammahoper]

One of the most worrisome things for me when trying to look at consequences of tweaking the magic system (any game, any setting) is what I call the Perpetual Motion Paradox.

It's been a while since I've looked at my RM books, but IIRC, Boil Liquid is a pretty low level spell. And all it takes is a Boil Liquid and a Permanent spell to make a steam engine that never needs fuel. And I mean never, like "until the entropy death of the universe" kind of never. Add a Permanent to a Condensation spell at the exhaust vent for the steam, and it'll never need water either. And it'll work just as well for the guy who finds it 100,000 years after the original owner's civilization last existed.

To be sure, Permanent is a 50th level spell IIRC. But that just means any 50th level Essence spellcaster, or anyone who can afford to hire one, is a potential world wrecker, no?

FYI, the spell is CONSTANT, and it is level 30 (Alchemist Base List).  There is a permenant spell in closed Ess, but only one may be active at a time.

[markc]

GrupmyOldFart,
 I also think the issue is that if they create the machine would they know what to do with it? Or would they just seek to find a more devastating spell to aid in their domination?
MDC

[RandalThor]

To be sure, Permanent is a 50th level spell IIRC. But that just means any 50th level Essence spellcaster, or anyone who can afford to hire one, is a potential world wrecker, no?

I wouldn't call it a "world wrecker" because you have the simple fact that in a magical world, those things that take such high-levels of spellcasters to do would be rare - just like the uber-powerful artifacts are in "regular" games.

The only way I could see it wrecking a world would be if they could make is so that some Joe off the street could reproduce what they do with decades (possibly centuries) of training and experience and very high degrees of skill and ability. (Like video editing: I can jump on a computer with editing software and throw something together, I cannot build the computer and write the editing program in order to do such, which is what mages do when they create magic items.) Because it cannot be distilled down to where a non-uber mage can reproduce the same effects, things like magic trains will always be rare and special.

I do think, howver, that there should be more effort on the part of setting creators into integrating magic into normal, daily life, and not just "adventuring/war" magic. In a world where magic is handled in an RM fashion (i.e., anyone can learn it, they just need access to teachers and time to learn), then there would be way more "mundane" types of magic that just assisted in their skilled profession - whatever that is, be it tailor, tinker, or spy. (Or masseuse, could you imagine a magically enhanced massage? Could be the best.)

[rdanhenry]

While the majority of RM lists are "adventurer" oriented, especially in core, there are plenty that are not. Even in Spell Law, there are a lot of spells that have civilian uses. Magical light is a big one; the ability to produce ice on demand is also a pretty huge capability to hand a pre-industrial culture. Then there's the enormous amount of information that can be magically gathered...

[dutch206]

I should point out that the above-mentioned steam engine would only be "permanent" in the fact that it doesn't need renewing. Over the course of time, the physical makeup of the device would wear down/erode in about a century or so.

[VladD]

There's plenty of 100+ year old steam engines still on display in the Netherlands. Especially pumps to keep the arable land dry. Some of those were only decommissioned in the last 2 decades. They were of course converted to run with electric motors, but still they ran till the late 80's. Its a question of maintenance and care, really.
Of course it is still impossible to make a machine that runs for 1000's of years. Magical lubrication and some way of slow regeneration of machine parts would make such a machine more plausible. I was thinking along the lines of Warding the machine against erosion.

[RandalThor]

Yes, I admit in RM(SS/FRP mostly) there are some spells useful for "civilians", especially with the advent of the Companions. But, the majority of spells/spell lists are still oriented towards adventuring-type applications.

Don't get me wrong, it is entirely "realistic" for magic to have been developed for such uses, it is just that - particualrly if you are trying to coorelate magic and technology - there should be a bit more ephasis on civilian magic in most games/settings.

But, I also believe that it wouldn't take the place of technology everywhere, I think it would just be an enhancer, like a master builder would use magic to assist him in his building, not use magic to do ALL of the building.

[dutch206]

As far as power sources for technology, magical energy is renewable and pollution-free.  How 'green' can you get?

[yammahoper]

As far as power sources for technology, magical energy is renewable and pollution-free.  How 'green' can you get?

Green is relative.  maybe the source of magic is a dimension being drained of its vitality by the stealing of its essence, a fact the magic users of your world are oblivious to, until said dimension invades in attempt to end the draining of its world and recaliam some of the power stolen from it.

Wait, I already ran that adventure...
 

[jdale]

A lot of this comes down to how common magic is, and how powerful. It makes a big difference if magic is 1 in a million or 1 in 2. It also makes a big difference whether the typical range of levels is 1 to 100 or 1 to 10. Personally I like magic rare and levels lower, so it's not going to be a huge social influence. But if level 50 casters are common, I don't see how you can avoid having that reshape the world.

[markc]

Speaking of trad driven spells lists check out Castles and Ruins and you have some fairly good ones.
MDC

[RandalThor]

A lot of this comes down to how common magic is, and how powerful. It makes a big difference if magic is 1 in a million or 1 in 2. It also makes a big difference whether the typical range of levels is 1 to 100 or 1 to 10. Personally I like magic rare and levels lower, so it's not going to be a huge social influence. But if level 50 casters are common, I don't see how you can avoid having that reshape the world.

Well, whenever I am discussing this on the ICE webboards, I am using the RM style of magic-use as a basis: Anyone can learn spells, it is much harder for some, but you don't need a special talent in order to use magic. With that as a basis, magic would be much, much more prevelant than in most settings. (Though, Shadow World is a high-magic setting.)

[providence13]

IIRC in MERP, the great magic control was "don't attract attention". If the uber bad guys noticed your power, they might recruit you.

If you wanted a give and take control for a magic/tech game, you could always say that one is antithetical to the other.
  Bladerunes has info about the complexity of devices and how that interacts with magic. I think that's a good place to start.
The game could easily spin out of control for me if I allowed magic and tech to easily exist, side by side.

If your character has a shootin' iron and a magic shield, perhaps the magic will increase the fumble chance of the pistol and the pistol's complex aura could hamper the protection of the shield. That magic is pretty passive, so it might be a minor effect, but you could rationalize it any way you like.

More complex devices/auras could hamper each other even more.

A similar system was used in the PC game Arcanum. If you happened to be wearing a Chapeau of Magnetic Inversion
("Once was the time warriors had only to contend with a well-swung sword, but now a single bullet can overwhelm the most fearsome combatant. Worry no more! By combining a Top Hat and an Electrical Coil, the Chapeau of Magnetic Inversion creates a strong magnetic field! Avert bullets and arrows with ease!")
to help block projectiles, chances were your spells would fizzle out more frequently. If you were a very powerful caster, you might be ok.

RM already has some rules to begin the process. If a Mage is wearing Plate Armor, he'd better have at least +90 in Transcend Armor! Wearing Mechanized Plate Armor with a Miniature Steamworks Engine might be doubled at least; -180 SCSM.

In fact, TA might be the skill to develop if you want to use both Magic and Tech.

Like the Bladerunes example, you could assign a Tech Value to different items just like Magic has a Spell Level.
Or just make it RR vs RR. One interferes with the other.

[GrumpyOldFart]

One of the things I'm trying to do is to create mechanics for "magical pollution". I'm not sure whether it will consist of higher failure rates for people in "polluted" areas, random Fortean effects, higher incidence of magically altered and/or magic using monsters, or what. But I really want to at least have the option to make using magic something you just don't do casually, because there are consequences to be considered. Everything has a price, magic use should be no exception.

[jdale]

A lot of this comes down to how common magic is, and how powerful. It makes a big difference if magic is 1 in a million or 1 in 2. It also makes a big difference whether the typical range of levels is 1 to 100 or 1 to 10. Personally I like magic rare and levels lower, so it's not going to be a huge social influence. But if level 50 casters are common, I don't see how you can avoid having that reshape the world.

Well, whenever I am discussing this on the ICE webboards, I am using the RM style of magic-use as a basis: Anyone can learn spells, it is much harder for some, but you don't need a special talent in order to use magic. With that as a basis, magic would be much, much more prevelant than in most settings. (Though, Shadow World is a high-magic setting.)

There's a hidden assumption here that the characters are typical, and that the character generation system also applies to normal people. Personally I prefer not to assume that. Although I understand many people do.


With regard to the other points about magic vs technology... I stumbled across this argument recently and thought it made some good points: http://owmysanity.blogspot.com/2012/05/magic-vs-science.html

[Lord Garth]

Well, I'd wager that technology would advance way faster with the existence of magic. The reasoning being that in the absence of some hurdles, advances could be achieved at a much improved rate.

There's a hidden assumption here that the characters are typical, and that the character generation system also applies to normal people. Personally I prefer not to assume that. Although I understand many people do.

I view the character rules as applying to all, including normal people, but adventurers are extraordinary people, thus extraordinary in their ability to develop skills. After all, a farmer may have the same potential to be a mage, but when you work the fields for 16 hours a day, every day, you have little time to devote to learning a spell-list. Ditto for most of the population. Only rich buggers, military or extraordinary people (such as the PCs) can. Not unlike philosophy in ancient Greece.