Topic: Nobility?

[markc]

How do you deal with Nobility in your game?


Note: The following questions are very general in nature, so sorry for not being ultra specific.
1) How do you institute it? (Talent points then deeds by PC's/NPC's, or some other method)
2) Do nobles have to prove it to other, and how do they? (I know how they did it in the middle ages but do you do it that way?)
3) What benifits dos it give or entail?
4) What drawbacks does it have?
5) Comments
MDC

[RandalThor]

1) How do you institute it? (Talent points then deeds by PC's/NPC's, or some other method)

For PCs it has to be a talent or other background option-type thing. Unless I am starting them off all as nobles because it is what the campaign is all about. Something I haven't generally done, probably because of both the advantages and disadvantages of being a noble. (See below.)

2) Do nobles have to prove it to other, and how do they? (I know how they did it in the middle ages but do you do it that way?)

For the most part nobles of an area tend to know each other, at least somewhat. Now, in areas where there are lots and lots of nobles, others posing is possible - at least for a while. Having a geneology style "document" is entirely feasable, but you may also run the risk of insulting the noble in question, which can be tricky. In areas where people posing as nobles is a continuing and significant problem, it is entirely appropriate to have a sort of proof of one's nobility, but what that may be should differ from nation to nation and culture to culture. Woe be it to the commoner posing as a noble and getting caught; they are likley to die a very slow, painful, and public death. (Must discourage the unwashed masses, don't you know.)

3) What benifits dos it give or entail?

Well, traditionally it infers a sort of "diplomatic immunity" as it applies to commoners. A noble was able to do just about anything to a commoner and there would be no repercussions (usually). Other than that, wealth and all that it brings: POWER! I am sure there are many other advantages, but those are the big ones that I can think of off the top of my head.

4) What drawbacks does it have?

It can be argued that nobles were some of the less free peoples, ever. Their lives were dictated by the all consuming, "for the good of the family." Most were unable to marry who they wanted, and were often married well before they hit puberty - at least promised, and sometimes even before they were born. A noble going against the family was often ostrasized and left out to dry. (Though they ofter were able to take some percious items with them, sot they may not be destitiute, far from it, at least for a while.) Traditionally, female nobles were even less-free than their male counterparts, ebing considered property of their fathers, and brothers when the father was gone. In many cases, it is more of a stretch to have a noble adventuring with a bunch of peasants than to have that lawful good, commoner paladin running around with the back-stabbing and stealing theif. (Some would argue that it isn't too different from our world's modern nobility.....including the ultra-rich.)

5) Comments

All of the above responces were generated using our world's history as a basis for the nobility in a game. For a fantasy world where a single person can aquire the power to destroy an entire city in a single spell, I would imagine that nobility would need to escalate their powers correspondingly. This means that instead of nobles going into knightly orders to become better fighters, they are likely to go into various magic-using professions to enhance their power-base. (And just keep it.) So, it is probable that nobles would often be semi-or full-spell users, with different families and their branches noted for specific ones. Like the Burnards of Ballberry are noted naturalists, and count among their numbers many druids, rangers and the like. As they reside in the outskirts of the civilized lands, this is a good thing and it helps them keep their lands safe from roaming monsters.

I don't see many nobles going the religious route, unless the nation itself is a theocracy. In a world where the gods are proven and faith is replaced with devotion, a family that goes the religious route would be subsumed by the churchly aspects, in essence becoming a sort of "family religious organization" - very similar to the numerous cults that have sprung up in our world. So, in an area where the nobles are the religious order, the nation would be a theocracy, and likely not a pantheon, but in some cases, a pantheon could work. (Please don't mistake out history of pantheonic city-states for what would arrise in a world in which the gods actually came down and kicked your butt if you dispeased them. In a world of gods that take an active role, I see religious wars and the like being even more common and nasty than in ours.)

[providence13]

I like using SEC (Socio Economic Class) in medieval settings. Sometimes it has no bearing on play, but when the PC's enter a city, it could affect  prices, reactions, access to funds, credit, etc.

It is interesting to use while impersonating others.
Spies and Diplomats use it all the time.

High Speech could be a language of Nobility in certain areas. (Never liked Highmen as a "race"..) If you have enough Ranks in the Lang, you could appear to be of higher SEC.

[GrumpyOldFart]

In the primary country of my setting, there is no "nobility" as such. There is "citizenship". The only way you can acquire "citizenship" is to serve the country, either as military or some sort of emergency services. At the end of that time, you become a citizen, with the right to vote, to bring issues up for a vote, to hold public office, and to make a living adjudicating the law (cop, lawyer, judge, assassin).

That said, nonetheless if your family for X generations back has all been citizens and officeholders, wealthy and well known, then you have all the practical effects of "nobility", even though your political inheritance is by no means guaranteed. Since government service is the unavoidable first step to political power, needless to say those running for office like being referred to as "Major", "Colonel" or "Judge". That's about as close to titles of nobility that my primary setting has.

[Lord Garth]

I love PCs with noble background stories. Of course unless it's the background option I grant them no direct benefits. Over time, they might enjoy some privileges in certain situations, but on the other hand they will be the target of distrust or some other nastiness in other situations.

Proving nobility usually accounts to speaking as one and being able to produce a potentially forged family tree document or a coat of arms.

Penalties for noble players could be:

• General distrust of the common people
• Merchants trying to charge higher prices
• Having to spend a sizeable amount of gold in clothing, jewelry and the such
• Being banned from entering some potentially lucrative trades

Perks for noble players could be:

• Ease of access to certain buildings
• Being invited to events
• Being allowed credit in some establishments (of course failure to pay this credit is another matter)
• Having a more flexible interpretation of the law if it came to it

To sum it up, anything that enriches a character's background story to the point where it is both easier and more fun to come up with side-stories is great. And Nobility is just that for me.

[yammahoper]

I really enjoy playing a noble with the mete justice talent.  They go well together and invites a host of story/roleplaying options.  I have played the combo twice, once with a mage, the other with a fighter.  Both times I also took a wealth bg option.  The GM was kind and let me hand out promisary notes.  You have no idea how much 120gp is untill you spend it on the most mundane items and services.  You can rent a room a long time even at 35cp a day.

[Lord Garth]

You have no idea how much 120gp is untill you spend it on the most mundane items and services.  You can rent a room a long time even at 35cp a day.

Noble PCs in my games are made to always request the best acomodation, even when they can't afford it, lest it be below their standards.

[yammahoper]

A normal room can be had for 8cp. 

I tend to multiply cost by 2-5x from the normal price tables for nobles gear and services.  I can always count on players to spend much more.  Me, I'm fiscally conservative, a rare trait in todays world I know.  I don't play often, and I have a dificult time playing a spend thrift soul.

[intothatdarkness]

Depends on the culture they're from, honestly. In my setting, some groups place more value on it than others. With some, it has far higher expectations (both in terms of conduct and sometimes spending), while in others it's not as big a deal. With one culture, bad conduct on the part of a noble character can rebound onto his family, making for some very interesting situations. For the more tribal, it gives them access to higher-quality horses and equipment, but also has some strictures that they must abide by (rituals before battle, taboos, that sort of thing). And in one culture, nobility as such can be bought, so it's not a big deal.

[markc]

How do you deal with cross culture Nobility?
MDC

[RandalThor]

How do you deal with cross culture Nobility?
MDC

Let me get the obligatory, "depends upon the cultures and situation" statement out of the way.

Ah. All better.

Generally, assuming mostly peaceful relations between the nations at hand, sort of like ambassadors. They will be treated as nobility, and accorded every respect and courtesy that the local nobles would expect and want if they visit their neighbors. In many respects, nobility was a nation unto its own. There are many historical incidents where one nations nobility would flee danger to a neighboring nation and be welcomed (though not necessarily forever) by the nobles there. Nobles generally stuck together when dealing with common folk, but are more than happy to stab each other in the back to gain an advantage over each other.

[jdale]

In many cases the nobility of different nations will be family. If you're not going to marry a commoner (the horror!), you've got a pretty small pool of possible mates unless your nation is huge (maybe this works for Imperial Rome) or you look beyond the borders.

In my main fantasy game, we assume the nobility recognize nobles of other nations, as long as those nations are allies. However they may not have exactly the same status. It's one thing to title everyone a "baron", but in practice status also depends on influence and might of both an individual and their domain.

In our RM game, the Eastern Kingdom is technically a holding of the Western Kingdom, and nobles of the east are considered a bit provincial. Definitely not the same status and there would probably be some subtle snubs if they went visiting the west. Whereas the east really needs to treat the western nobles well, in order to curry favor.

But then you go somewhere more primitive and those tin hats really don't mean a thing.

[Lord Garth]

How do you deal with cross culture Nobility?
MDC

Let me get the obligatory, "depends upon the cultures and situation" statement out of the way.

Ah. All better.

So totally unfair as that's exactly the right answer 

If a foreign noble carries arrives in a different culture he will be treated as nobility if he has his destination's culture "nobility items". This might include servants, jewels, coat of arms... In any case, failing that, he will 99% of the time elicit some kind of response from the general populace who will view him at least as an oddball. And regardless, unless the two cultures are at war, nobles from distant cultures would be the subject of at least a modicum of curiosity from the local gentry if nothing else to gauge their potential usefulness in their own daily dealings.

"So yeah, he dresses funny, eats ants and sleeps in a tent. But he commands 1.000 soldiers, I'd better befriend him before that vermin of Duke XXXXXX does."

[markc]

How do you deal with cross culture Nobility?
MDC

Let me get the obligatory, "depends upon the cultures and situation" statement out of the way.

Ah. All better.

Generally, assuming mostly peaceful relations between the nations at hand, sort of like ambassadors. They will be treated as nobility, and accorded every respect and courtesy that the local nobles would expect and want if they visit their neighbors. In many respects, nobility was a nation unto its own. There are many historical incidents where one nations nobility would flee danger to a neighboring nation and be welcomed (though not necessarily forever) by the nobles there. Nobles generally stuck together when dealing with common folk, but are more than happy to stab each other in the back to gain an advantage over each other.

Sort of like today's rulers of some counties that go into exile in other countries.
MDC

[markc]

In many cases the nobility of different nations will be family. If you're not going to marry a commoner (the horror!), you've got a pretty small pool of possible mates unless your nation is huge (maybe this works for Imperial Rome) or you look beyond the borders.

In my main fantasy game, we assume the nobility recognize nobles of other nations, as long as those nations are allies. However they may not have exactly the same status. It's one thing to title everyone a "baron", but in practice status also depends on influence and might of both an individual and their domain.

In our RM game, the Eastern Kingdom is technically a holding of the Western Kingdom, and nobles of the east are considered a bit provincial. Definitely not the same status and there would probably be some subtle snubs if they went visiting the west. Whereas the east really needs to treat the western nobles well, in order to curry favor.

But then you go somewhere more primitive and those tin hats really don't mean a thing.

 The notion that you marry your children and kin to nobility of other countries goes well with RandalThor's thoughts about how nobility is treated when traveling to other countries in times of peace and when necessary do to problems relating to uprising's.
MDC 

[RandalThor]

Often a marriage between nobles of feuding nations was a way to help stop the bloodshed - provided it was mostly about ego (which most wars are) and not about absolutely needing something the other nation has. Oh yeah, even during wartime nobles were treated differently than commoners as prisoners. Often, being a prisoner was not much different then being back among his own people for a noble, they just couldn't leave when ever they wanted.

Noble marriages were 99.9% about the needs of the family, money, land, etc.. Which was one of the sure fire ways for a very wealthy, but non-noble, merchant to get into the nobility. When the nobles were hurting for cash (they did tend to throw some very expensive parties and build themselves some hideously huge homes), they would marry off a son or daughter to a wealthy, local merchant; the nobles would get a flush of cash, and the merchant would get some "respectability". (The only way to be "respectable" in a nation with ruling nobility, is to be a noble, the two terms went hand-in-hand.)

Now, remember, this is in a world were a single person couldn't gain the ability to annihilate an entire city, so the idea of nobility needs to change as well. Perhaps in a particular kingdom, nobility is more of an effect of being really, really powerful - in an individual sense, and not a political one. (Who would you obey more; the guy who was born a noble, but was just a wimpy little dude, or the guy who could, with a few words and gestures, burn your village to the ground?* I would say, that the power of POWER goes a long way to determine who would be calling the shots, as it were.) But, that doesn't mean they wouldn't have many of the same problems our, non-magically powered nobility does.

*Sure the wimpy guy could call upon his soldiery to go after you, but it is much easier fighting soldiers than a fireball the size of a house, or a multitude of lightning strikes coming out of the sky, or the ground erupting from beneath your feet, or etc.....

[providence13]

Nobility rides horses.
PC's walk, teleport or fly.

[rdanhenry]

In my current setting (not in the whole world, but the continent in play), there isn't much "nobility" as such.

The Dwarves have a meritocracy of skill, with those who are experts in a field having the most say over it. The Elven realm has a royal court, but it is entirely ceremonial, with custom and consensus ruling affairs. Immortals have all the time in the world to discuss an issue until an agreement is reached. The District has a representative government, though the heads of the "Old Families" do hold certain hereditary powers and could be considered a form of nobility. The Beachhead Protectorate has a fairly complex system of representative government; it has a definite class structure, but social mobility is available, especially in the city of Beachhead itself. If you consider Bill Gates to be a lord, then they have lords. The Westlands is stuffed full of "nobles", but that really only means that one's family owns land and probably better compare to late era English country "gentry". The real power is held by the Seven Kings, whose officials are often drawn from their own families, but they largely leave the landholders alone so long as they behave themselves.

Note that a situation like late Europe, where all the national leaders are related through generations of diplomatic marriage, is much more difficult to come by if you have a mix of different species who do not interbreed.

[intothatdarkness]

How do you deal with cross culture Nobility?
MDC

In my setting, that's driven very much by the basic culture. In one of the more advanced realms, a noble from one of the steppe tribes would be treated with some condescension, and the reverse would also be true. In areas where the cultures come into regular contact (peacefully or otherwise), the situation changes somewhat. There's still a level of distrust and lack of respect, unless the cultures have met each other in conflict, say. Then there can be respect.

Marriages are trickier. In most cases, one of the settled cultures would cast out a noble son or daughter who married into the steppe tribes (but that's more of the family's decision). In cultures with a strong sense of family identity, the married party would take on the social aspect of the family she (or he in some areas) married into.

One of my cultures is a serious meritocracy, where someone can be elevated to nobility or stripped of all titles based on conduct. Things get more complex there, of course.

With the demi-humans, respect is based again on contact (or lack thereof). A dwarf noble would be treated well in most locations, and so would a human noble visiting a dwarven hold (unless the two areas have poor relations, of course).

[giulio.trimarco]

How do you deal with Nobility in your game?

Note: The following questions are very general in nature, so sorry for not being ultra specific.
1) How do you institute it? (Talent points then deeds by PC's/NPC's, or some other method)

Generally or all PCs start nobles (like the campagin I'm kicking off), or they roll for it, randomly.

2) Do nobles have to prove it to other, and how do they? (I know how they did it in the middle ages but do you do it that way?)

In my games, generally, all citizen must have some form of "credential", a real document issued by the King/Emperor/whatever.
These documents assess the identity of the citizen in question. Not having this credential is a pain in the a....
In addition to this nobles have some distinguishing mark:
right to bears coat of arms, fine clothings, house ring, renown and reputation ("It's the king!") and, generally speaking, they announce themselves to local nobles.
Finally, on medieval times, taking a "word" had special means. Today we are much more distrustful, but in an age of personal interactions, words were the law.

Example: during a siege in north France, a besieging english night called the castlehold knight, praying him to open the gate and watch at the danger he and his men were exposed.
After the french knight requested an "assurance" (a spoken promise) that no one tried to storm the castle and that his inclumy was not at stake, he opened the gate and, arriving near the english knight, watched the exposed wooden foundations of the tower he was standing minutes ago.
Suprised but thankful, the castlehold knight "assured" that he, and his men, were prisoner of the english knight (not english army) and that he needs only a day to prepare his men to leave the castle".

3) What benifits dos it give or entail?

First, in battles nobles (knights) were not killed, if found wounded on the field, but taken prisoner for a ransom. Not always ...
Second, a noble was taken seriously on his "assurances" since his honor was at stake. Nobles rarely betrayed their words.
Third, generally nobles were not charged for what we call taday "crimes". Not if these crimes happened against not "gentle" folks.
Nobles, generally, were welcomed hosts of local nobles, when on travel. Not to abuse, though.
Nobles were generally rich. Often, expecially man-at-arms, were poor if they didn't loot. Not a good position.
Nobles weren't generally hated by peoples nor mistrusted.

4) What drawbacks does it have?

Middle ages were much more less "chaotic" than movies and books tell us but...
Nobles were not expected to take part to sacks and dead depredations. Their men though...
Nobles were not expected to rape.
Nobles were expected to protect noble women from their own men. This was a nasty affair after months of sieging and battles...
Nobles were expected not to handle money directly.
Nobles, in the rare case were judged, often were condamned to death.
Nobles were often prey of envy, expecially if near influencial or powerful person (King, Duke, Emperor).
Nobles were expected to protect their peoples in case of war and raise an adequate army.

Last but not least ... nobles couldn't swear and must pay higher taxes (and are closely watched by king's men)