Topic: Spells and talents which add targets

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

So the rule in one version of spel law says to subtract the bonus from your skill for skill ranks and just apply stat mod/item or level bonus, etc?

I'm playing RM2 and talked about the RM2 SL, sorry.

How stupid and over complicated can a rule be.

How is it "over complicated" to remove the skill rank bonus, since the original rules (RM1 I believe and RM2) state that your bonus to hit is a certain number of factors + the skill rank bonus? It's a mere subtraction, and no more complicated than subtracting a penalty from your skill. Or an opponent DB.

[rdanhenry]

My RM2 Spell Law, Stock #1200 says in the Triad of Water spell description (template for all the elemental Triads), "Caster's bonuses can only apply to one of the attacks." There's no distinction between types of bonus.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

RM2, SL, #1200P, the PDF electronic copy sold in the ICE store.

[yammahoper]

RM2, SL, #1200P, the PDF electronic copy sold in the ICE store.

That says the entire skill bonus to me, not skill rank bonus.

Tomato, tomatoe.
Ya know, forget the red sauce, I prefer a white sauce...with lots of garlic, butter and parmesan cheese.

[rdanhenry]

RM2, SL, #1200P, the PDF electronic copy sold in the ICE store.

That says the entire skill bonus to me, not skill rank bonus.

I agree. The wording was changed to name the bonus that is being used (once only), but the meaning has not changed. There's nothing there about it only being the skill rank bonus component of the directed spell bonus.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

There's nothing there about it only being the skill rank bonus component of the directed spell bonus.

Uh, there is: as I posted, if you read the explanation of what SL considers the "Directed Spell Skill", as detailed in the example presented in SL, p18, section 8.4 "Elemental Attack Spells", is the directed spell skill rank bonus and one of the modification factors of the Elemental Attack roll.

[yammahoper]

So...I cant train skill in directed spell with triad until I'm level 16, and when I cast it, I only get directed spell bonus for one bolt (the only weaker bolt in RM is Shock Bolt, water bolts are being hirled about by level four).  lol, this spell sucks.  I would be far vetter off casting 4th level water bolt (no prep and only 4pp) which I can have an easy 12 ranks in directed spell.  If spell mastery is allowed, then this spell really, REALLY sucks.

I can see the fighter snickering, "Oh, three attacks mate, but only OB skill with one?  I've had two attacks at full OB since level one!  Whadda loser."

[rdanhenry]

So...I cant train skill in directed spell with triad until I'm level 16, and when I cast it, I only get directed spell bonus for one bolt (the only weaker bolt in RM is Shock Bolt, water bolts are being hirled about by level four).  lol, this spell sucks.  I would be far vetter off casting 4th level water bolt (no prep and only 4pp) which I can have an easy 12 ranks in directed spell.  If spell mastery is allowed, then this spell really, REALLY sucks.

Where do you get the idea that you need to train with Triads specifically. You're aiming one Water Bolt; use Directed Spells (Water Bolt).

[rdanhenry]

There's nothing there about it only being the skill rank bonus component of the directed spell bonus.

Uh, there is: as I posted, if you read the explanation of what SL considers the "Directed Spell Skill", as detailed in the example presented in SL, p18, section 8.4 "Elemental Attack Spells", is the directed spell skill rank bonus and one of the modification factors of the Elemental Attack roll.

I can't read that, because in the actual published book, p. 18 is Alchemical Research. I've no idea what you are actually looking at, nor by whom it was inserted or why. What you are describing goes against all other usage I've ever seen in RM, where your skill bonus is your skill rank bonus PLUS your applicable stat bonus PLUS your professional bonus (if applicable) PLUS everything else that increases your bonus with that skill, like bonus items. Even so, the spell description is notably missing the word "Skill" upon which your argument pivots, implying that even if such a distinction was being made to make "Skill Bonus" mean the skill rank bonus, this is not a limitation on the Triad's restriction of bonus to a single bolt.

I fail to see any logic in allowing your stat bonus, but not your skill rank bonus. You either are aiming the bolt, or you are not. To improve the triads, one might allow, say, half your normal bonus to apply to each bolt, to represent splitting your effort between them, should one consider RAW triads too weak.

[yammahoper]

Triad spells strike me as distincly different bolt spells, so I require they be trained as such.  This is not a big problem with my house rules (were spells are cast at the level the list is known to rather than the users level...in my normal group I don't use levels, in my secondary group each level is 100 dev).  We get to the level 15-20 spells all the time in my games, admittedly I was playing devils advocate and going by RAW, which I believe could also be interpretted as requiring a new directed spell skill.  OTOH, spend a single bg option to make directed spells ev, then specialize and one skill covers all directed spells (from School of Hard Knocks).  I mean, there are ways and then theyre ways.

[rdanhenry]

I'm pretty darned sure no NPC has ever been listed with a skill in Directed Spells (Triad of Foo).

RMSR, p. 167, A-1.14, "Directed Spells Skill Category", includes the following text:
"Skills: One for each directed attack (i.e., usually one for each element)"

Given the number of Triads, treating them as separate skills would mean usually two per element that has a directed attack. I think the exception is meant to be Light, with Shock Bolt and Lightning Bolt as different skills, but one could certainly make a case that Lightning Bolt and Shock Bolt should use the same skill and the exception is for elements without a directed attack.

[yammahoper]

...define usually for me...

Your post doesn't disagree with mine, unless usually means always, regardless of NPC listings...not that ICE has many NPC listings lately (admittedly, when they do, its "directed spell bonus XX", usually without specifics).

I'm just saying, it could be cleared one way or the other, but usually leaves wiggle room.

At least, usually it does...ya ever say a word so many times it stops making sense?  Hmm, I think I need some Talking Heads.

[rdanhenry]

Usually means a majority of the time, at the very least. Elements with bolts, but no triads: One (Light). Elements with bolts and triads: Three (Fire, Cold, Water). If you consider 1 out of six (or 1 out of 4 if we only look at the bolt-slinging elements) "usually", you are stretching the meaning of "usually" beyond any definition I've seen.

[yammahoper]

Well I shall continue to stretch then, it's good for me.   

My games tend to run the high action adventure powerful PC's making significant changes and impact on world affairs.  I stay away from the universal type adventures I use to run, not that I never will, but the drama of a city of 400k facing certain death is enough tension for me, let alone a nation or planet.

My leveless version of RM means a character can very quickly develop/master a specific skill/spell list.  Particularly if a spell user buys the power talent and picks five list to level 10.  That means out the gate he can cast (with appropriate prep and the like) level 10 spells.  18 dev will get one list to level 16, assuming it is a base list of course.  So after a few adventures and 4-6 weeks in game time, triad spells are able to be cast and trained.  My vesion of RM is less restrictive than level based RM, and since a fighter can pick up a high powered rifle that does simular damage with simular rate of fire, this doesn't bother me at all...though he will have to find said rifle first, of course.