Topic: Evil spells

[gandalf970]

In all my years of Rolemaster GMing we never understood the Evil spells.  Are these a base spell or can anyone under that realm use them.  I didn't see a specific class that get's them or can they be swapped out for other base spells. 

[yammahoper]

Yes.

They train as base list.  Swapping them out is fine.  If youre friendly, then all professions could learn them as additional base list after they are found.  Evil is seductive and likes to break the rules.

[markc]

Yes.

They train as base list.  Swapping them out is fine.  If youre friendly, then all professions could learn them as additional base list after they are found.  Evil is seductive and likes to break the rules.

 I agree with the above.


 I have also seen a game world where Evil lists were learned in places as closed lists and the GM said there was a place in which they were learned as open lists.
MDC

[gandalf970]

Great ideas, I will see what the new GM decides and let you all know.  This will be a fantastic campaign.

[providence13]

Some Base Lists started as evil and became TP Lists.
Arachnemancy (RoCoIV) was an Evil Magician/Cleric List and then became a slightly scaled down TP List in EssCo.

Instead of making it evil, I've made it very unpopular because a Spider Sect used the List "to the terror of the people". Most have forgotten the history.
There are still some defenders protecting the area from "Evil" Spider Mages and when they find out a certain young Mage (PC) has the List, they won't care if he's good or not. 

[rdanhenry]

The rules on handling Evil lists have always been rather loose and left for the GM to define more closely, with various options suggested. I believe this is deliberate as how Evil is treated will vary significantly from one game world to another. It is even quite possible to treat Evil spells from each of the three Realms rather differently.

Balance considerations suggest scaling ease of learning with drawbacks from Evil magic. If the use of such spells merely makes others a bit uneasy about the user, then they should probably replace Base lists (including taking as one of the four extra Base lists as a Pure). If you gain some nasty side effects from working Evil magic, letting anyone take them as Base lists makes sense.

[gandalf970]

Thanks everyone, makes it all clear now. 

[gandalf970]

If the use of such spells merely makes others a bit uneasy about the user, then they should probably replace Base lists (including taking as one of the four extra Base lists as a Pure).

rdanhenry, what do you mean by the "four extra Base lists as a Pure?

[Lord Garth]

Great ideas, I will see what the new GM decides and let you all know.  This will be a fantastic campaign.

I'm GMing the last few levels (almost all PCs should be level 20 within two sessions and I'll call it quits at about 26-27) of an "Evil" campaign and though it's been a lot of fun, from a GM perspective it's a lot more demanding IMO. It took me as a GM almost 10 levels to get it right, and it's taken my players almost 10 more levels after that to get their evil stuff really going. Of course, none of us had ever played an evil campaign, so if your GM has experience in running one such campaign I'm sure he'll get it right way faster than us.

[gandalf970]

Lord Garth I appreciate the honesty and feedback.  I have GM'd Evil campaigns before, but my players are not pre disposed that way and it took them way too long as you said to figure it out.  I am thinking maybe not totally evil, but the criminal element and perhaps a Robin Hood mentality (stealing from the rich).

The GM is a killer one, who thinks outside the box and can really bring the pain on us.  It should be fun and I will keep you posted as to when we get rolling on it.

[DangerMan]

IIRC accesibility to evil spells are clearly descibed in spell law, at least in RMFRP/SS. Evil pure users may learn them all as extra base lists, but then the four free base lists may not be chosen among open / closed. Any other PC may learn them as either own realm-other base or other realm-base lists.

Evil spells are great fun and powerful stuff. For us they have yet to change the game that much, but I guess combing instant spells on evil channeling with melee could really mess thing up. I never got why those were made instant...

[Lord Garth]

Pray do keep us posted.

The problem for me as a GM was getting the motivations right for my players. Indeed a "good" PC has his agenda more or less clear. Help the kingdom, get rid of the evil-doers, wage war on demons … that kind of stuff. For an evil PC the case is less clear-cut. In danger? Run away. Overcome with foes? Run away. Too much competition? Run away.

Eventually what I did was have the PCs find a cursed castle. I added a few things to the castle so that they would have something to consider before running away and also to help me get them into a more or less stable environment so that I could develop lasting NPCs and establish a more solid ecosystem. Then, when they were finally feeling safe and their evil-doing was getting in their stride, I had their castle raided by do-gooders. 

In a few levels they'll make it back to their castle and then I'll have them give it a go at being overlords for a while. Conquer a few minor cities, join a running war perhaps …

Then it'll be time to roll new characters.

[JimiSue]

... join a running war perhaps …

This is presumably because of all the running away they did earlier

[Lord Garth]

... join a running war perhaps …

This is presumably because of all the running away they did earlier

 

[TAK]

Way back 15 years or so, our SW GM had evil list use causing soul corruption that would eventually lead to you joining the Unlife.

My character at the time had Dark Temptation as a background and had some demon blood in him, needless to say he started out as the mysterious Raistlin type of character, but he ended up redeeming himself in the end. At the time I had no idea who Elor Once Dark...

[jdale]

I only once played a character with an evil spell list, an Enchanter (RMSS) with the Mind Disease list. In a brief encounter that list is not a game-breaker, the problem with it is the durations -- every spell is permanent. But the different lists vary. Some are more broken than others in my opinion.

I think there has to be some downside to those lists, to balance out the power advantage. As written you've got corruption points which lead to being controlled by evil entities. Seems like a start. In the game I played the Enchanter in, there were also people who could "see" something was wrong with the character. So I had to be concerned about avoiding them. (Game didn't run long enough for any encounter to actually happen.)

We also once started a game (not RM) in which the forces of evil had all but been eradicated from the world. We were the last dregs trying to rebuild on behalf of a demonic patron, who started off very bedraggled but gradually regained vigor in response to our acts. Didn't last very long though. In a reverse setting like that you may as well throw in the evil lists.

[markc]

 From a Pure Arms User perspective all spells are Evil.
MDC

[Lord Garth]

From a Pure Arms User perspective all spells are Evil.
MDC

I forget who wrote the epic comment (I think it might have been Arioch), but it was more or less like this.

"Non-spell users are like ice-cream. They come in different flavours but have the same purpose, consumption".

Magic in Rolemaster is simply too much fun to pass on. 

[dutch206]

If the use of such spells merely makes others a bit uneasy about the user, then they should probably replace Base lists (including taking as one of the four extra Base lists as a Pure).

rdanhenry, what do you mean by the "four extra Base lists as a Pure?

RM Classic, page 22:

A Pure spell user may select any four lists in their realm to be classified as base lists along with those normally associated with their profession (i.e., they may learn type “E “ portions in these four additional lists). These lists may vary from character to character, but they must be picked when a character starts play and cannot be changed thereafter.