Topic: Casting Level of Items

[Cory Magel]

From my experience there are three ways to handle spells cast out of items, so I didn't mind this being left out of RMSS.

There's the wielders level, which never made much sense to me logically (although it can be good in some ways for balance reasons).
There's some formula to come up with an "Item" level based on various factors (can't remember, but I think D&D did this way back).
There's using the level of the individual that created the item.

I prefer the last myself.  It makes for more interesting items in my opinion.

There have also been campaigns where the players would eventually have items made for them for one reason or another and this allowed an extra form of justifiable control on their power level.

On the casting time we just house ruled that however the effect was cast into the item is how it comes out.  So if the creator of the item cast a spell that you find as potentially both a standard spell and as an instant it became a matter of which was actually used in the creation of the item.  Not only did that just make more sense to us, but it was another form of control on the power level of items.  You could have a lower powered item that cast "Spellturn" as a 75% or a higher powered one that cast it as an instant (normally 10% in RMSS).

[Marc R]

IIRC items have a default casting level, if not given this can be inferred from the highest level spell used to make it.

This can have unfortunate side effects. One instance I can think of in play was:

A sword that has constant "Light" when drawn, and can do "Sudden Light" 3x/day.

The kinda cool, but not earth shattering low casting level light when drawn effect requires a constant imbed spell, inflating the item to 30+ casting level.

This makes the 3x/day zaps of sudden light, where targets are stunned 1 round per 10% they failed the RR much much nastier, since eating a sudden light at 30+ level was usually enough to stun most opponents for a lot of rounds. . .and is an area effect spell no less.

That'd be fine if said sword were the minor item carried by a 30th level PC, so RRs are scaled to 30th, but as the really awesome item for an 8th level character, it ended up being so game breaking we needed to stop using the "Cast at level needed to create the item" and use another metric. (I think the GM default set the casting level of the sword at 10th level by fiat).

[GrumpyOldFart]

Seems like it wants a "caster level or level required to create the item, whichever is lower" caveat. That might be an info tracking hassle though.

[markc]

  I would like to see a formula that is based on the casters "rank" (+other factors) in the spell list that determine the spells level. This would make it possible to have a caster be able to cast a constant spell at low ranks "levels". IMHO that makes the most sense about how it would be in real life by using skills as an example (if you will let me make that stretch of logic). So a crafter who can forge an item can make a great sword but if they do not have any artistic abilities it will not be a work of art.
MDC

[Marc R]

If you put light, and sudden light into a sword, would the light go off at say 30th, while the sudden light goes off at 10th? Or would the item have a singular casting level?

[markc]

If you put light, and sudden light into a sword, would the light go off at say 30th, while the sudden light goes off at 10th? Or would the item have a singular casting level?

 
  IMHO each spell would have its own casting level and requirements to enchant. Higher level spells would be harder to enchant than lower level spells.
MDC

[Marc R]

So each capability in an item would need an individual listed power level?

[rdanhenry]

Of course, an embedded spell could be at the original casting level and be any level, because the Alchemist might have had someone else supply the embedded spell.

[intothatdarkness]

I always preferred something of a throwback to AD&D (as I remember it, anyhow) and had each magic item have its own level based on its powers. In the MarcR's example, in my game that sword would have had a level of around 12 (so close to your GM's decision), based on the "X per day" limit of the second spell power. I also experimented with runes (a leftover and now unattainable Dwarf magical item power) which had very powerful abilities (generic "Of Slaying", for example) which could only be used two or three times per day. The item would recharge overnight, but it had some very firm limits on use. Runic powers were considered 20th level if a save was needed.

I don't have AD&D in front of me (and actually think I got rid of my DM's Guide some years back), but I think the general construct was single use items were level 5, constant power items were around 10th level, and intelligent items went beyond that. I wish I could remember Gary's system, as it was reasonably elegant and simple to use.

[markc]

So each capability in an item would need an individual listed power level?

 Yes or just have its abilities listed in the description, ie Light 10-50' radius as 5th level caster; fireball 10' radius, range 100 as 15 level caster, etc.
 IMHO it makes items more "human" or breaths more life into them as the detail can add a lot. IMHO it is not just artifacts that should benefit from more description but common items magicked as well. 
MDC

[Old Man]

So each capability in an item would need an individual listed power level?

For simplicity sake, one could just go with the level of the spell being cast. Otherwise, a handy chart of "to put spell level X into item, requires spell level Y" is possible but requires versions for Wand, Rod, Staff, Daily I...X, Constant eh?

[markc]

 So you have a base enchanting time for a spell of rank X then a chart for additional time to enchant a higher level than the base spell rank. The additional time should be a lot less than the time it takes to enchant the base spell. This two tier time requirement system would make it very likely that low rank spells with higher levels would be a valid building choice.
MDC

[arakish]

IIRC items have a default casting level, if not given this can be inferred from the highest level spell used to make it.

This is what I use.  Since I do have the Treasure Companion, I use its statement on page 40:

Verbatim from Treasure Companion

8.1 LEVEL

An item’s level is the highest level spell used in creating the item.

Thus, even if the item only casts a 5th level spell, the item will have a minimum level as shown below, dependent on whether it was created in the Alchemist's own or other realm.  And this is just the bare minimum to Imbed (single cast) or Daily (1x/day), NOT including any Make, Work, or other spells.

		Daily 5 (other)		Imbed 5 (other)		Daily 5 (own)		Imbed 5 (own)
Min Lvl		15		14		14		11

As can be seen, that item, casting only a 5th level spell, will be 11th to 15th level.

rmfr

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

In the Core rules of RM2, when cast by an item, the "level of effect of the spell cast is the level of the spell itself (on whatever list it might appear)". (SL, p12, 6.3 casting spells from items)

[yammahoper]

IIRC items have a default casting level, if not given this can be inferred from the highest level spell used to make it.

This is what I use.  Since I do have the Treasure Companion, I use its statement on page 40:

Verbatim from Treasure Companion

8.1 LEVEL

An item’s level is the highest level spell used in creating the item.

Thus, even if the item only casts a 5th level spell, the item will have a minimum level as shown below, dependent on whether it was created in the Alchemist's own or other realm.  And this is just the bare minimum to Imbed (single cast) or Daily (1x/day), NOT including any Make, Work, or other spells.

		Daily 5 (other)		Imbed 5 (other)		Daily 5 (own)		Imbed 5 (own)
Min Lvl		15		14		14		11

As can be seen, that item, casting only a 5th level spell, will be 11th to 15th level.

rmfr

I like this.

The item provides the skill rank bonus for casting.  Ignoring the reduced progression provided in TC, 15 ranks would be a bonus of 45.  Hardly over whelming.

Even 100 ranks is only a 95.  A great bonus.  These rules help pump up low level casters who start with a daily III sockbolt or a rod of waterbolts or a wand of sleep spells.  It also allows non skilled users to rely on the itemsbase power.

That said, spell level is ow I played for years until buying TC.  Both rules work.