Topic: Which version of Rolemaster?

[Kristen Mork]

You're saying the expansion material is what ruined RM2 then recommend using those same materials with RMC...?

It looks to me that Kevin is advocating against the companions and for the modules.  I.e., not all expansion material is created equal.

Personally, I needs me my expansions, so I play RMSS almost exclusively ('cause overall it's more balanced).

[GrumpyOldFart]

And it's possible that he's saying if you're going to learn a new system anyway, go ahead and learn RMC. You'll have to watch out for balance and game logic issues when you try to integrate stuff from RM2 Companions regardless of which system you integrate them into. But the integration process is easier from RM2 to RMC.

[intothatdarkness]

I definitely prefer RM2. There's nothing that says you have to use the companions, and in fact I went through and was pretty selective about what I used. I don't think it was ever intended for people to use everything in every companion.

RMSS, to me, seemed way too templated, especially when there was no good explanation of the reason for those templates. This applies especially to the racial profiles. It was clear that they were developed for a particular world or setting, but without that background it was just a bunch of clutter that I'd have to strip away or develop explanations for. Better to use RM2 and mold it to your purposes.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I don't think it was ever intended for people to use everything in every companion.

In fact, I'm fairly certain there were disclaimers in all of them basically saying don't try, it won't work.

[intothatdarkness]

I don't think it was ever intended for people to use everything in every companion.

In fact, I'm fairly certain there were disclaimers in all of them basically saying don't try, it won't work.

You are correct. I always felt RMC I was perhaps the most unified, but I also think that was a direct "dump" of someone's campaign material. RMC III tended to work fairly well if you were looking for new professions, but again it was very much a "pick and choose" environment. When I customized the whole RM2 thing for my world, I used elements from RMC I-III, although to be honest I used very few of the professions in RMC II.

[jdale]

RM2 is like a kit, from which you can build a good game, but it takes some work. (Or you can ignore the companions entirely.) It's disorganized and unbalanced, issues that you need to resolve. You may not discover what is broken until you start playing. I assume RMC resolved some of that, although not having seen RMC I can't say to what degree.

RMSS/RMFRP are an assembled kit. It's much better planned out. However, they may have used too many parts. It would not hurt to trim the skill list. That said, RMSS/RMFRP are entirely playable as-is and you don't have to worry so much about breaking things. If you can get through making characters you can easily handle everything else.

[intothatdarkness]

RMSS/RMFRP are an assembled kit. It's much better planned out. However, they may have used too many parts. It would not hurt to trim the skill list. That said, RMSS/RMFRP are entirely playable as-is and you don't have to worry so much about breaking things. If you can get through making characters you can easily handle everything else.

Perhaps, but to me it always felt like you had the kit but no instructions or idea what they were about when they put the kit together. It just didn't work with my world at all. But YMMV, of course.

[kevinmccollum]

I AM saying the companions are what introduced the imbalances and when you start learning the system, DON'T use the companions. I did use material from the companions initially and we found issues with them so weaned people off of them. (After RMCIII came out, I stopped buying companions. RMCI had some balance issues, RMCII had a lot and RMCIII was pretty much unuseable.)

Start with RMC, learn it. Then add stuff that you think will work in your world.

RMSS/RMFRP took a lot of the bad stuff from the RM2 expansions and incorporated them. Additionally, a first level character in RMC and RMSS are a totally different breed. They front end loaded characters in RMSS so you have higher starting OB, PP, etc and aren't going to improve a lot over time, in RM2/RMC, you start low and build up.

Honestly, in RMSS, you aren't 'first level" when you start. You have completed adolescence, apprenticeship and have a bit of military service (or its equivalent) behind you.

[Cory Magel]

All system bias' aside I'd rather have the more complete system (i.e. expansions included) without the balance issues.

Having used large portions of RM2 and having played RM in general (and designing some of it I guess) for many years I don't pay much attention to the technicalities of the systems anymore since we just create or modify during conversion from one version of RM to the other... but if I was first getting into a system I wouldn't want to have to choose between waiting for expansion materials or attempting to convert unbalanced materials.

[Cory Magel]

On top of what you named, Channeling Companion, Essence Companion, Mentalism Companion, Treasure Companion, Martial Arts Companion, Castle & Ruins, The Armory, School of Hard Knocks, Elemental Companion, Arcane Companion, Construct Companion.

Be careful if you use the RMSS/RMFRP Channeling Companion as the Priest concept allows the building of a customized Priest via selecting your base lists - you need to be careful the base lists aren't all really strong ones.

I highly recommend the Marital Arts Companion as it gives pure arms users a little love in comparison to spell using professions.  Might be a little hard to get your hands on though.

[smug]

I highly recommend the Marital Arts Companion as it gives pure arms users a little love...

!!!

[Cormac Doyle]

I highly recommend the Marital Arts Companion as it gives pure arms users a little love...

I think I've been taking a recurring "E" maintenance critical after failing a Marital RR !!!

[Magistrate]

I think, with both systems you can have fun, both are flexible. Its a matter of taste.
I've played RM2 many years ago and it was very good but (as mentioned before) unbalanced (we need many house rules).
In my opinion RMFRP is a very good successor of RM2 (I don't know RMC), I don't need house rules.

And RMFRP has the best (SCNR) character generator: Rolemaster Office

[Zat]

It's RM2 for me and my group, has been for many years, but that said, it's evolved into  game of our own.

I would suggest going for RMC if you're starting from scratch.

[Cory Magel]

I highly recommend the Marital Arts Companion as it gives pure arms users a little love...

!!!

lol... I don't know if that was a Freudian slip or just a plain old typo. (Planning a wedding for next August).

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Definitely RMSS.

I’ve played RM2 for several years and decided to become a GM. That’s when my local shop sold me RMSS. That was in 1997, I never jumped to another system ever since.

I find this game superior to RM2 on many aspects : magic, character power management and creation, skills. Instead of handing out a gazillon profession, there are fewer but with talents, TPs and everyman and occupational skills you can twist them into variants. And on top of that, most companions are pure jewels, the latest not the least.

I tried RMC, had a game with friends. We found it lacking from the get go. Less power is not an issue but less possibilities is.

[DangerMan]

And on top of that, most companions are pure jewels, the latest not the least.

Which one was the latest?

[RandalThor]

Honestly, in RMSS, you aren't 'first level" when you start. You have completed adolescence, apprenticeship and have a bit of military service (or its equivalent) behind you.

Which isn't one of the flaws, to me. But that is me not liking the starting at first level stuff anymore. I prefer to play a character that has some experience under his belt. But, I would still go with RMC, bringing in the extra bits that I wanted from the RM2 Companions.

I highly recommend the Marital Arts Companion as it gives pure arms users a little love...

I think I've been taking a recurring "E" maintenance critical after failing a Marital RR !!!

Hah! I didn't even notice. Nice catch. I'm sure it was Freudian........

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

And on top of that, most companions are pure jewels, the latest not the least.

Which one was the latest?

Construct companion.

[Cory Magel]

Which isn't one of the flaws, to me. But that is me not liking the starting at first level stuff anymore. I prefer to play a character that has some experience under his belt. But, I would still go with RMC, bringing in the extra bits that I wanted from the RM2 Companions.

I agree about the characters effectively being the equivalent (say, compared to D&D) of higher than first level not being a flaw of the system.  RM is deadly if used as-is without any GM fudging... I think it's a good thing that they have more survivability as a result.