Topic: Market for new spells?

[mightypawn]

In the Essence Companion, there are rules that allow characters to "study" for (extended) periods of time to learn a new (or existing) spell to add to one of their spell lists. 

This is very interesting.

If my pc's can do, cannot Npc's do the same?

If Npc's can do it, then it follows that some of them ARE doing it....

Given the time, effort, and cost involved, wouldn't it make sense that these NPC's might defray the cost by "Selling" their new-found knowledge?

I think these are logical assumptions if "Creating new spells" is allowed in a campaign.

So, therefore I seek guidance on the subject of "Selling" spells and or spell lists.  Also, would there not be a "Base training time" to get familliar with the new spells/spell lists?  Or perhaps the "study materials" used to create the list be condensed and organized so that the learning process takes a fraction of the time? 

These rules pose more questions than answers.... LOL!  Any insight from someone who has used these rules would be helpful!

[markc]

1) IMHO yes NPC's and anyone who has the time and resources might possibly create spells. Some may even do it for a job.
2) I think there are rules in the RMSS Ess Comp about learning new spells and spell lists. IMHO if a spell is inserted into a list at a higher rank then the cost is the same as the spell list.
3) In my game I like having spells to 30th rank on a list but I have not flushed out the lists to any great extent and I do not have any I would like to release. But basically what I do is make up more powerful versions of lower level spells or create some unique spells that fit the lists scope.
  If you have access to the RM2 Companion or the reprint of it as the RMC Comp 1 they have some higher level spells that may help you out.
4) Again I believe you will find the info about learning new lists in the Ess Comp if not then they should be in the Arcane Comp or the Ment Comp. But I could be wrong. After looking if you cannot find the info let me know I will do a search when I have the time.


That is about all of the advice I can give for your Q's above. But post more Q's when you have them.
MDC

[yammahoper]

Base training time can be resolved using the training table in RMSS.  It may be in RMFRP (not sure), but definitely in RMSS.

[Marc R]

Or the Research spells from the pure realm base lists, often used for the same purpose, have rules for how to go about it.

[Temujin]

As far as training time goes, it depends on if you're going with researching an individual spell on an existing list, or researching a new list.  If a spell on existing list, the person who already has the rank should basically need training time similar to learning a rank of that level, whatever that is in your campaign (you can check Gamemaster Law if needed, or learning rules in Essence Comp if you use that).  If a new list to learn, it would depend on classification: Open, Close, TP or Base.

[mightypawn]

sorry fellas!

I'm looking for ideas in regards to selling/buying new spells. 

For instance...  a magician heads into the Mage's guild in (insert City Name here) and wishes to enhance his abilities with some new spells.  He's offering Gold in exchange for knowledge. 

How do we (fellow GM's) proceed with a transaction?

[Marc R]

Ahh, you mean like buying a spell.

20th level Wizard wants to learn "Fire Noose" a 15th level variant spell for "Fire Law" that can be learned at the royal acadamy for a fee. . .that kind of thing?

I'd charge a lot in most game worlds, perhaps even "You need to join our school/order/society" like a secret kung fu move.

I'd definitely make it cost some time (unless it's something like they magically imprint the spell over to you).

I'd consider charging DP, or else 10 ranks in fire law can be 10 spells, 15, or 20. (If using the RMFRP or RMC 1 rank/level rule, I'd consider changing that to 1 rank/spell if you allow multiple spells per level in the 1-20 levels)

Unless your world has very common magic, like "magic items generally available for sale" level of magical commerce, in which case it might be like taking kung fu classes in the modern era. . .pay em a reasonable sum once a week for training.

[mightypawn]

Ok, I like those Ideas,

I don't have a situation per se', but reading the rules tends to give someone ideas!

Here's how I see magic in my world...

Thorin (our hypothetical caster) uses concentration, gestures, and voice in some combination to mold magical energy (wherever it came from) into a "usable shape" in order to perform a specific task or action.  Let us use the example you gave above....

Thorin has focused his "magic energy" into a fireball.  He's done this many times.  He's also used this ability to "shape" magic energy into fire for other purposes.  He's lit campfires, warmed himself and his comrade's on frigid winter days, and even cooked with his fire.  We could say Thorin is very adept at controlling magical fire. 

One day, Thorin learns of a Mage nearby who is known for using a "Fire Noose" to hold his captives.  Those who try to escape the noose only end up with horrible burns.  Thorin has use for such a spell...  that no-good traitor Garos will certainly suffer for his lack of discretion if Thorin could just master this new technique. 

Thorin approaches the mage with the strange new fire spell, and talks him into sharing his technique.  But it will cost him! 

Exit story:

As I see it, Thorin need only learn a new "shape" and how to produce it.  If someone "knowledgeable" were to show him how a few times, then "help" him through the process a few times, Thorin could go off, and practice and perfect his new spell, adding it to his bag of fire "shapes" he's already comfortable with.  Given his level of comfort "shaping" fire, I believe he already has the "basics" down pat. 

I don't see the learning part as a huge hurdle...

But, Knowledge is a curious thing!  It can be given, but it can never be taken back!  Once the knowledge is passed on... there is no way short of Murder to have sole possession ever again.  Thus, knowledge has a high price... always has.

On the other hand, one purpose of knowledge is to gain wealth, and you cannot gain wealth if you cannot sell your knowledge.  Thus, simple economics comes into play.  What will the Market bear???

Enter Story:

The Mage may have his special spell, but there is no way Thorin is about to pay him 250 Mithril!  Thorin will just have to settle for a nice fireball after all!  Garos will pay, but the suffering Thorin was hoping for will not come into play. 

Alternately.....

Enter Story:
Thorin barters masterfully with the Mage and both are satisfied with the arrangement.  Thorin spends the next few weeks mastering and perfecting his newfound "shape" then goes off in search of his sworn enemy!

Exit Story:

I like ending #2 myself!  Although, I'm not opposed to ending #1.

The only problem I have is how to implement Ending #2.  Assigning DP or ranks as the price would not affect Thorin's viewpoint in the least. 

Joining the Mages Guild, or whatever....  well, easy to say yes, then move on and forget about it! 

That pretty much leaves Money, or services rendered, or both.

Wouldn't it be convenient if we had some kind of formula to compute a fair deal with?

Perhaps someone with a little experience in economics could conjure (pardon the pun) up a hypothetical spell market, and create a base formula.  There is already a similar system created, and that is the Daily Items.  However, in creating these items, the knowledge isn't revealed.  Much the same way we can purchase a computer and use it with no knowledge of how it came to be, and no chance of replicating it. 

So, to continue with that metaphor.... how much is it worth to know how to build a computer? 

We're not talking about microchips... the "magic" exists, we're talking about putting the magic to use. 

Hopefully, someone can deduce a reasonable system...  it would certainly enhance the game in my opinion!

[rdanhenry]

Is this supposed to be a common transaction? You don't have a market price without a market and you don't have a market without a significant number of transactions. That's why auction prices on rare items can be so unpredictable: there just aren't enough sales of like items for anyone to say what the fair value of item is. If such sales of specialized knowledge are rare, then there isn't going to be any kind of formula to apply to the costs, even within the context of that specific game world. If normal training in spell lists is done as a simple cash for tutoring transaction on a fairly regular basis, there would be an established price for learning spells. Then you could figure a multiplier to that to determine the price for a unique spell, bearing in mind that any number of factors may be involved in figuring that multiple.

That said, it is generally better to establish a price other than monetary for such training. This is the perfect time to introduce a plot hook for some adventure. Have the spell-caster who knows the desired spell ask some service or rare item (magic item, monster body part, exotic herbs, etc.) and you motivate a quest, with a special award for success already established. Passing up this opportunity by accepting coin is rarely going to be the better option.

[Cormac Doyle]

the principal reason guilds exist is to limit knowledge and mastery to a select few; this equally enables the group to support itself, set prices and ensure that everyone is controlled.

Realistically, to get the knowledge, you would join the guild.

Now - what impact will that have? Well, it will depend on the rules of the guild ...

Tithe of 10% of earnings to the benevolent fund?
Must make yourself available to assist the guild on request?
Must adhere to the rules of the guild (must not provide service to blacklisted individuals; must not undercut other guildmembers; must work with the guild to put practicing mages that are not guildmembers out of business; etc).

If you don't enforce this type of thing, so be it ... but it is a great way of making your world more in-depth and believable ...

[markc]

  I am with Cormac Doyle and rdanhenry, in that the type of thing you are asking in core RM is not fair trade but un-fair trade by its definition and design.


 So I would use the above info as a guideline but in your game world you can do what you want to do. What would I do in my game world if a caster had a unique spell and someone just came up to him and said teach me the spell? Well I would probably go the guild route above with all of the flaws as well as an oath (maybe magical to the guild) and some time spent at the guild so the guild could get to know the caster and see if they want to teach the spell to another.
 IMHO it is not the easy commerce of today's world of internet shopping but  more like trying to buy military or government secret hardware.


 But again your game world can be what you want it to be and if spells are traded freely then that is how it go's.

MDC     

[mightypawn]

I like the way you three see it....   And I agree....

I was looking for something I could point to and have my characters strive to a special goal..."knowing a certain special spell"....  But you guys are correct...  tucking this one under the rug.... LOL

[Marc R]

If you do want to go with just a market, a good starting place might be exponential pricing, to make learning low level spells cheaper, but restrict high level spells. (The higher level a spell is, the fewer casters know how to cast it, creating a constantly shrinking supply side as you go up level).

Something like:

Spell Level² x Base Cost

So if you use a 100 SP base cost, a 1st level spell costs 1 x 1 x 100 = 100 SP, but a 10th level spell costs 10 x 10 x 100 = 10,000 SP.

Toss in whatever base cost works in your economy and you're in business. I've done the same in common magic games, most often via either hiring a tutor or finding/purchasing a tome/scroll to study.

It also makes for interesting booty, Like the personal journal describing how to cast "Fire Noose", a mage might be happy to take that journal as their share when the fighter gets that dandy Broadsword +15.

A factor to keep in mind, in games where I allowed such, is that there's nothing stopping the players from having their PCs teach each other spells.

[mightypawn]

The way I see it, if someone were to want to learn a 7th level spell on a list they are not familiar with.... ie no ranks....  then they would at the minimum spend 3 levels at the minimum while spending points into the new list.

Which they could do no matter what anyhow!

Which makes  the whole "buying" spells worthless, unless you could fit them into an list you already know beyond the point where the spell would fit. 

So, the spells that would actually benefit a character are few.  Indeed, it would make for a wonderful treasure find for a caster from that viewpoint.  And some nice story lines just pop into your head....

So the open market idea flops quickly when you consider that the character really can't buy spell knowledge any other way than the learning curve....  as for the gaps in the spell lists... well, I think they are a beautiful launch for a good adventure at the least...  and a great way to reward the casters in my game for their hard work!

[providence13]

In the Essence Companion, there are rules that allow characters to "study" for (extended) periods of time to learn a new (or existing) spell to add to one of their spell lists. 

  Also, would there not be a "Base training time" to get familliar with the new spells/spell lists?  Or perhaps the "study materials" used to create the list be condensed and organized so that the learning process takes a fraction of the time? 

Like you said, there is a base training time.
 Researching spells on a known (to the caster) List requires 8-10 hrs/day based on the Spell   Research Time Chart.
  If you don't know it up to the needed level or the spell isn't on anyone's List, the time is x3.

To teach this spell to anyone else requires 1/4 of the original research time. That's for the instructor and the student; 8-10 hrs/day.

Guilds need someone to teach lower level spells. Part of the price of learning spells might be tutoring new initiates/acolytes/sorcerer wannabes.
You could say that the person who wants to learn a spell is instructed 4-6hrs/day and then teaches 4-6 hrs/day. This might double the above 1/4 time to 1/2 original.

So it takes a little longer but costs less. If you can afford a private instructor, then you get the original 1/4 time of research.

Remember that good teachers will be in demand! Teaching is a skill and may increase the students %roll to learn the new skill/spell and/or reduce the time required; per day or overall.


 

[KaBurr]

In my game we use a simple formula for spells.  Keep in mind we made this completely arbitrarily =) 

1st level spell     Cost 1 Gold     Size 1 page of a spell book
2nd level spell     Cost 3 Gold     Size 2 pages of a spell book
3rd level spell     Cost 6 Gold     Size 3 pages of a spell book
4th level spell     Cost 10 Gold     Size 4 pages of a spell book
etc.

The formula, for the math challenged, is to add the previous level to the cost.  ie. level 1 plus level 2 equals 3 gold but kept the size of the spell equal to the level of the spell.  That way spells become increasingly complex and a high level spell may be one entire book in size!
We cut the cost to silver instead of gold for "guild members" and I leave the consequences of teaching spells to *others* up to the respective game master.  But this at least gave us a starting point of where to begin for costs and size.  I also run a low-fantasy campaign so if you're running a high fantasy where magic is more like technology, silver instead of gold may be the right starting place for your game.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Keep in mind that a "spell" isn't just a bit of information, it's the skill to use it correctly. If someone gave you a book containing precise instructions on how to build a nuclear bomb, but no one gave you any of the grounding in science, the safety precautions, the anti-contamination procedures, etc... well you'd almost certainly succeed in killing yourself and any helpers you had, but you'd be very unlikely to build a bomb.

The money paid for the information is the comparatively trivial part. The part that will have an impact on the players is the time necessary to acquire the skill.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice... and there's no substitute for it, either.

 

[markc]

Keep in mind that a "spell" isn't just a bit of information, it's the skill to use it correctly. If someone gave you a book containing precise instructions on how to build a nuclear bomb, but no one gave you any of the grounding in science, the safety precautions, the anti-contamination procedures, etc... well you'd almost certainly succeed in killing yourself and any helpers you had, but you'd be very unlikely to build a bomb.

The money paid for the information is the comparatively trivial part. The part that will have an impact on the players is the time necessary to acquire the skill.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice... and there's no substitute for it, either.

 

 I fully agree.


 Also in the past people often encoded their work so as to protect it from those who were not skilled enough to have the knowledge. I generally use the encoding technique in my game for spell books and other such things.
MDC

[mightypawn]

In my game we use a simple formula for spells.  Keep in mind we made this completely arbitrarily =) 

1st level spell     Cost 1 Gold     Size 1 page of a spell book
2nd level spell     Cost 3 Gold     Size 2 pages of a spell book
3rd level spell     Cost 6 Gold     Size 3 pages of a spell book
4th level spell     Cost 10 Gold     Size 4 pages of a spell book
etc.

The formula, for the math challenged, is to add the previous level to the cost.  ie. level 1 plus level 2 equals 3 gold but kept the size of the spell equal to the level of the spell.  That way spells become increasingly complex and a high level spell may be one entire book in size!
We cut the cost to silver instead of gold for "guild members" and I leave the consequences of teaching spells to *others* up to the respective game master.  But this at least gave us a starting point of where to begin for costs and size.  I also run a low-fantasy campaign so if you're running a high fantasy where magic is more like technology, silver instead of gold may be the right starting place for your game.

KaBurr, I like your Idea of the spell book.... reminds me of D&D...  I've never considered bringing that to RM.  I'm thinking that if the "Spell Book" were the correct realm for the caster, it would simply be a matter of acquiring the skill (rank points) to cast the spells within it's pages as if it were a separate list.

Familiarizing a character with a spell being added to a known list is trickier.  Let's say a character knows the list to the 10th level, and is filling in a 7th level "Hole".    I still think some training should come into play, however the formula for calculating just how much is not lending itself to me.

Any ideas there?

[mightypawn]

I'm not ignoring you Providence... I see where you are coming from.  I am considering the character as one who already has some 'proficiency' in his own realm, and is acquiring a new spell from within that realm, and moreover, a spell that the character would be casting at his level if that particular list were chosen from the beginning.    Thus, the hands on 'tutoring' is not being counted as a requirement.

If the case were that a caster wanted to learn a spell from a different realm, I completely agree, and the character would basically have to 'exit' the campaign for quite some time to complete his training.  (not fair to the rest of the group to have to stop and wait for him)