Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => HARP => Topic started by: Right Wing Wacko on October 28, 2007, 07:29:55 AM
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Can we get some more information as to the contents of the new Bazaar?
Please...
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I'm looking at it now, and it contains exactly what it says in the description, the Rolemaster Express combat rules. Rules, attack tables, crit tables, and fumble table. 13 pages.
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Yep Guy!
A new combat system (the fourth!) based directly from Rolemaster.
P1: intro/ table of content
P2-3: Condensed combat rules: the changes with HARP rules and explanation of thiese new combat rules
P4-5: weapon statistics table: fumbles, criticals, special modification with weapons (battle axe: +5 OB versus chain/plate, - 5 others for example)
P6-9: combat tables "? la Rolemaster ;)": 1 H weapons, 2 H weapons...
P10 combat critical tables: crush, slash (Crit T to E: you roll dices for criticals: T -50, E +20: results: -49 to +120)
P11: elementals criticals
P12: miscellaneous criticals (grappling, Large physical and spells criticals...)
P 13: fumbles
For me: a very good work with old RM saviors for critical hits, but 2 rolls for determining damages...I want to try with my pals this system (I use H'N'S)
I've got some questions to Tim:
p9: in the spell statistics: why in the process for determining results for spell attacks You must add the caster's level? (+ attacker's Offensive bonus- defenders defensive bonus+ caster's level- 5 if defender has shield [??? shield is in DB??? i don't understand this fact]. What do You mean by EAR, BAR?
P 12: There's no the table for Huge creatures? Why Can I use the large table with a -20 modif for Huge creatures?
P13: for spell fumbles, what are the :
-class I, U, D, F, E?
But at large a good work! " Chapeau bas in french ;)).
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OK...sorry...I did read the description, however, past Bazaars had more than 1 article as content... hence my question...
Thank you for the answers... I picked up a copy of RMX and liked the combat...
maybe I will pick up this issue of Bazaar... ;D
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Uh-Oh.... unless I am completely blind and an idiot, when I tried to order HB 11, I ended up with HB 10...
Waddup with that?
I am almost certain I didn't click on 10...it isn't even near the top of the page!!!
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No problem for me...maybe You did a FUMBLE ???
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black flag -- sorry -- I missed a few things. Issues now fixed and email sent to all those who purchased it so far.
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Uh-Oh.... unless I am completely blind and an idiot, when I tried to order HB 11, I ended up with HB 10...
Waddup with that?
I am almost certain I didn't click on 10...it isn't even near the top of the page!!!
That may have happened when I had HB11 down for me to replace the PDF with the proper one. If you try the links now, it should work properly.
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Oh..OK.... cool!!!
Looks like I got 2 for the price of one!!
Thank you Tim ;D
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Yup no problem
Khonu forgive You ;)
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Oh...and a question...
The DB adjustments have me a little confused...
If a PC is wearing Chain, then I subtract the DB adjustment from his total DB and use the modified DB on the charts?
This would tend to make heavier armored characters easier to hit but with less damage... I think ???
Some might argue that with the DB adjustments, heavy armor is not good, as it lowers DB...
is it because the charts deal less damage to heavier armored characters that we have the DB adjustments?
Am I on the right page?
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kinda sorta -- in the normal combat system for HARP, heavier armors protect more from damage, and have a higher DB rating.
In RM, there are 20 DB rating (though on the normal attack tables, the protection value is not a linear gradient).
On these, there are 6 columns. each of the six already take into account some of "heavier armor protects better", so the full DB bonus from HARP is not required. However, I also felt that with the Armor By The Piece system that HARP uses, some items will still provide a DB bonus to the character.
The column used for attacks on your character is based upon the armor worn on his torso, the largest part of his bonus. And since the largest portion of your body is now determining the attack column being used, it would not be right to allow the full DB bonus. So I subtracted a value equal to a shirt & helm, the two most commonly worn items (and worked out to be half of the DB of a full set).
In short, the DB adjustments are because the tables themselves provide a damage adjustment based on the armor worn, and the DB adjustment works to balance than back to closer to its original values.
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Hi Rasyr!
You said that the columns are for armors worn on torso, right..
But, if a PC want to wear a helm, greaves? Or to mix severals parts of differents armors like a plate cuirass and a leather helm? How handle the DB?
And why You didn't included acid table for necromancers?
Last question: how handle breaking 150 (if a huge monster rolled a big score)?
Tank IOU for answers dear Rasyr
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Hi Rasyr!
You said that the columns are for armors worn on torso, right..
But, if a PC want to wear a helm, greaves? Or to mix severals parts of differents armors like a plate cuirass and a leather helm? How handle the DB?
Guessing from the armor adjustments mentioned at the start of Bazaar 11, I'd say that the armor type column used is based on the torso protection the character is wearing (torso DB + e.g. boots DB = DB adjustment). So if he is wearing a chain shirt he will look up the results on the chain column, no matter if he is wearing soft leather protection for all other body parts.
So in your example of a plate cuirass I would reduce the DB by 30 for looking up the attacks on the plate column (for wearing a plate cuirass) and add 3 DB again for a (rigid) leather helmet. Other armor pieces would give further modifications to the DB.
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Ok
But I have another question:
in the tables of weapons and spells (p5 & 9) there're second criticals ("If a critical higher than A is obtained then a second critical of this type is delivered..."; with__ in the second critical column is: no second crit at all or the same crit that the first? I mean: if a mighty magician scores a high result "crit E" with a fire bolt, there's a second critical one step less severe determined with an another roll (for weapons, the same roll)?
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Ecthelion has the right of it regarding armor -- The torso armor determines column. The column determines the DB adjustment. Nothing changes regarding the armor system and how it is used.
Acid -- Use Heat criticals.
Second Critical -- if none is given, then none is done, period. And a dash means none. Not all weapons will get a second critical either.
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Ok Rasyr!
but to me, my house rule is: make a second critical (for the spells for example or even weapons) for a high roll isn't anathema; in the p 9 of spells the table said: second crit: "if a critical higher than an B is obtained, then a second crit of this type is delivered in add... vthe second crit is one step less severe" thus if a magician with a huge fire bolt rolls a 150 on no armor (36E crit), he must reroll a second crit type D. For weapons, the second crit, if not precised in the column of second crit is the same that the primary crit of the weapon but for the weapons there's not a second roll: use the same (like in the table p5). This for the gap between H'N'S and HB 1.11.
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Secondary Criticals are for exceptionally damaging weapons, and were not meant for all weapons. Making every weapon have a secondary crit can cause you problems because many of those secondary criticals that ARE given are limited in the max crit that they can do, so your house rule just made them less powerful than normal weapons. And that is a problem.
I would suggest trying it like it is before tinkering with it.
And if you do use your house rule, just make sure that your players know that that is a house rule, and not part of the original rule of the option.
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Yes You're right: rules must be tested before changed. I'll do a game session the 17 Nov with these new combat rules (I used H'N'S since my first game sesion with HARP).
But I think of my house rule...Your suggestion about the second crit that will make some weapons less powerful is right...abracadabra...and if this limited second crit becom a tertiary crit?
I mean: Sir William Wallace hits an ugly and evil english knight with his Morning star (Prim crit: CRUSH and second crit: PUNCTURE limited by a A crit). William rolls a 119 on the 1-Handed Concussion Attacks table with a result of 16 C. For normal rules: he rolls a C crit on the crush table and a A puncture. For my house rule, it's the same but he add a B CRUSH crit (to me for balancing with the deadly H'N'S; I must try the normal rules and my house rule). For acid attacks, I think use the elemental attacks and for the crit, the external poison table like in the base rules.
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Rasyr,
Thanks for HARPers Bazaar 11.
From what I have read so far, this looks to be the best combat system of them all. It has all the basic mechanics of RM (more like the old MERP), but easier to use. I think I am going to have to start using this new system instead of H&S. :)
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But I think of my house rule...Your suggestion about the second crit that will make some weapons less powerful is right...abracadabra...and if this limited second crit becom a tertiary crit?
That would up the power level of the whole combat system, but it does it equally across the board. That is the sort of things you have to watch out for when tinkering..
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That would up the power level of the whole combat system, but it does it equally across the board. That is the sort of things you have to watch out for when tinkering..
As H'N'S! the more deadly combat system that I know!
Dear Rasyr, for this new system, can You give us stats for the new weapons from ML please? If You do it, your place in heavens is certain :D
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Dear Rasyr, for this new system, can You give us stats for the new weapons from ML please?
That would be great :)
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Not today I can't. Perhaps I can squeeze out some time over the weekend to try and do them up.
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Tank IOU Rasyr, very nice! ;)
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Tim,
There is a sainthood waiting for you! ;D
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I have a question concerning the OB modifications...
Are they balanced in reference to the armor DB reductions?
I mean to say, since heavier armor is already penalized to DB, are the weapon modifiers to OB taken into account?
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Maybe not in every little detail, but the weapons and how they work are taken into consideration before the modifiers were given.
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Rasyr,
With these new RMX type combat tables for HARP, how do you handle spells such as Tree Skin which causes the caster's skin to become as protective as soft leather (and other armors)? Are attacks against the caster resolved on the None Column (since they aren't really wearing armor), or under the appropriate Armor Column?
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To me the spells alter the skin and act like armors, thus DB must be lowered like in the rule; a steel skin/tree skin (You name it...) it's hard like plate, soft ou rigid leather, thus use the right column. ;)
I 've tried this system and it's less deadly than H'N'S; it's more or less equal to the base system, ML.
Fourth wounds systems for HARP: a great choice for each master (me and my pals really love H'N'S), with different saviors.
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under the appropriate armor column, with the appropriate DB adjustments accordingly
I.e. the basic Treeskin spell protects as Soft Leather, giving a +20 to DB. So, you use Soft Leather column and subtract 10 from DB (after adding the 20 from the spell), and there you go.
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Thanks Rasyr. :)
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Something different. IMO there is a typo on page 11 of HB11. The Attack Size of the Spear is listed to be L(arge) for one-handed use and M(edium) for two-handed use. It should be the other way around I guess.
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Amazing.
Great new tactical criticals, damage cap - in comparison to H&S.
Fantastic weapon mods (against plate, chain or leather)
BUT.......
Two attack rolls needed (HARPs huge advantage of only one roll vanishes)
How do you handle spells dealing a critical? (elemental walls, tremors, aura etc)
I think i'll use it on a cloak-and-sword campaign. Little blackpowder weapon adjustements (crush? impact?) and some styles (italian, spanish) and we'll see how fine it'll fit.
black flag -- sorry -- I missed a few things. Issues now fixed and email sent to all those who purchased it so far.
fine :) *waiting for message*
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Two attack rolls needed (HARPs huge advantage of only one roll vanishes)
In my experience many attack rolls do no or little damage. For all these rolls it still remains one attack roll. Only for those rolls where a critical is achieved a second roll is made. That is IMO perfectly acceptable.
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Rasyr,
Got another question for you.
I don't have my RM books handy (loaned them out), so I can't look this up, but .... If I am using creatures from the old C&T book, what ATs would equal which armor types under the HB 11 combat tables. Soft Leather, Reinforced Leather, and Chain are pretty easy to figure out, but what is the AT cut for Plate/Chain and Plate?
The RM ATs in the C&T book (the only RM book I have right now) only describes the leathers, chains, and plates, no plate/chain combos. Should I just not worry about this and just use the SL, RL, Ch, & Pl columns in HB 11 and just skip using the Plate/Chain column?
Thanks.
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You have to remember that the stuff in HB #11 is a conversion of the combat system from RMX. RMx doesn't have the plate/chain listing, but the HARP version does.
If you are trying to convert from RM's C&T to HARP and to use this, I would use the following general rule of thumb:
AT 1-4 = None
AT 5-8 = Soft Leather
AT 9-12 = Reinforced Leather
AT 13-16 = Chain
AT 17-19 = Chain/Plate
AT 20 = Plate
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Thanks once again Rasyr. :)
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Ya know what I miss though?
...the abundant criticals, with a different column for each letter...like in old RM.
What was the reasoning behind making the critical list smaller?
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To make a Condensed Combat System. If you like the Arms Law Crits, then you can always just slap them in and replace the ones given with the core RM crit tables.
It would still work fine that way...
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I'm intending to test this system in my next session, which will be in about 10 hours (really must go to bed and get some sleep :D ) Any suggestions on which crit table to use for Holy crits, as the party's cleric uses Celestial Ball from the HnS rules? My guess would be either the electrical (most likely) or heat tables. Also, suggestions for Slaying weapons would be interesting - but certainly not essential, as no-one in the group has a Slaying weapon.
Hawk
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I would use electrical crits for Celestial Ball and Bolt...
And good question about the "of Slaying" weapons... lets wait and see what Tim says! ;D
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Holy crits -- use electrical (blue bolt from heaven) hehe
Of Slaying -- Do an extra critical (External Poison Critical from the HARP core book) of the same severity (use the same severity mods on the table as well).
Or you could use the critical tables from Hack N Slash (treating any results below a one as a result of one).
The adjustments for critical severity work just as well on the HARP and HnS crits as they do on the ones from HB 11.
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HB11 is exactly what I was waiting for! Thank you!
About the "two attack rolls", I think I will use the attack roll, inverting the dices for the critical table. A 85 attack dice would become a 58 on the critical table, etc. Maybe the only trouble is that 80 et 90 results on the critical would be very rare.
And I don't know yet if I will use the new weapon statistics... I'm afraid of too much datas for my players. We'll see.
(I hope you'll understand me, I'm sorry for my poor english)
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About the "two attack rolls", I think I will use the attack roll, inverting the dices for the critical table. A 85 attack dice would become a 58 on the critical table, etc. Maybe the only trouble is that 80 et 90 results on the critical would be very rare.
...and this will have quite some impact on the game, because results like 80, 90, 100, 110, 120 are the most severe on the critical table. And these results you would kind of remove with your rule. I would suggest giving the two dice rolls a chance. In most cases the result on the attack table indicates no hit or only some concussion hits and then no second roll is required. Only in cases of a critical result a second roll is required.
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Yeah... try it as is first... your method seems flawed as per Ecthelion above.
I would keep the weapon modifiers too. The system is "balanced" with them, if you remove them, you might unbalance things...
I actually like the mods myself, adds a little more realism and spice to the game!
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You're certainly right.
It seems I can't play a game without modifying the rules. (maybe I played too much DD3...) Let's try before change!
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Well we playtested the HB11 combat system in our session last Sunday, and I generally got a negative reaction from the players. We have been using the HnS combat system, and the general feeling was that this was no where near as good.
The players didn't mind the second roll for the critical, or the fact that a bad roll on the critical could make a good roll into a bad result, but they all thought that the damage throshold on the core charts was way too high. As an example the party's 7th level ranger was attacking a 5th level fighter who was wearing rigid leather. The fighter had a DB of 93 (reduced to 78 through the armour reduction rules) and was parrying with 30 of his OB for an adjusted total DB of 108. The ranger has to get an adjusted roll of 61 to do even 1 point of damage to the fighter. The same roll using HnS would be a 48 (cause the fighter would have an extra 15 DB) which would do a 10F, which is 17 hits(total), 1 round of stun and an MP of -10. The main thing my players like about the HnS system is that it makes combats generally quite fast so they can get on with the rest of the adventure. As it turned out this ended up being a quick combat anyhow, but only because the party's cleric rolled really well on her celestial ball and then really well again on the C holy crit which stunned both the bad guys for 6 rounds - effectively combat over.
Most of my group have played RM2 in the past, so they quite enjoyed the RM-style crit tables, but the overall feeling was that the tables need to start doing damage at a much lower level. However, I quite like the fumble charts and will probably use them rather than the ones from the core rules.
Hawk
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I think like You; I prefer the H'N'S for the fast and exciting combats, but I prefer the fumble tables from HB 11.
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I will do the same and only use the Fumble table (it looks soooooooo great for an evil gm :evil2:).
I think that the greatest advantage of H&S is that the combat is very fast and straightforward.
So, thanks for the "playtest" hawkwind. :)
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Hawkwind, from what I read above it looks like you used the new system but the combatants allocated their parry amounts like for the previous, deadlier H&S system. Perhaps combat would be faster again if the characters behaved a bit more offensive - as the modified system allows them to do. But generally I think that, if you were used to H&S and liked that system, there is no reason to change. For me the new combat system is a reason to give HARP a second try.
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The great force of HARP is that it offers choice to masters & players alike;I like H'N'S, other HB 11, other ML....great! there're no doubt to me that HARP is the better RPG (I wait Something Wicked like my first "rendez-vous" with a girlfriend ;D).
I like 'realistic" combats; HB 11 is less deadly that H'N'S (I tried and with an equal roll the results are very differents; in H'N'S if you roll a great score: great damages, but HB 11 like in OLD RM even if you rolled a great score, maybe the roll for crit will be a minute 01...aaarrrggghh). I take H'N'S with the rule for protective armors from ML (but only with chains and up, no more damages with leather and so...).
When I play a game session and when a combat begin, I see in my mind the Lord of the Rings battles: bow are deadly, like an axe hit in the head
SMACK... I love HARP and it's numerous choices!
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I?m going to test this combat system, but most likely I will use RM crit tables, simply because it creates more varied results. And this way I can use fun martial arts attacks like nerve strikes and similar.. indeed nice.
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Should the DB modifiers to armor come directly off the PC's DB from armor?
I mean, (without having books in front of me), a PC has Chain that grants a DB of +30... the armor modifiers in HB 11 say to subtract 10 from DB. Now, could I just replace the Core Book DB value of Chain with the modified DB from HB11?
Hence the Chain only grants +20 to DB?
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That?s the way I read it, so I would say yes.
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Thanks! Yeah, it SEEMS to make sense that way... ;)
Anybody else have any ideas?
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I left it vague, because it is supposed to come off their DB, period. But I also didn't want to say that I was reducing the DB value of the armor (figured folks would yell, if I did that hehe).
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;D
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Dear Rasyr
Can You give us the stats for weapons of ML? PLEASE. :)
And questions about DB:
You said that the armour worn ptrotect the torso. But You said that You discount DB from torso and helm. Why helm and not only counting the torso?
If a monster with Tough Hide want wear an armour, how handle this?
The DB for monsters with Tough Hide must be down with the DB torso too?
I want to try HB 11, but with acid, and other I'll use crit tables from RMC.
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Dear Rasyr
Can You give us the stats for weapons of ML? PLEASE. :)
There are enough weapons there that it would take me a sizable portion of time to convert them for use with these rules, therefore, as I said before, they can go into the next issue of HB. Sorry.
And questions about DB:
You said that the armour worn ptrotect the torso. But You said that You discount DB from torso and helm. Why helm and not only counting the torso?
Because the DB value of "Helm + Torso" = 1/2 total DB for full suit of armor, and THAT is what I wanted to be discounted.
If a monster with Tough Hide want wear an armour, how handle this?
The DB for monsters with Tough Hide must be down with the DB torso too?
Tough Hide -- use only 1/2 normal DB given for the type of Tough Hide. Compare the normal DB Bonus to those of full suits of armor to determine which column it should be attacked on.
Tough Hide With Armor - use the better attack column to use. They do get BOTH DB bonuses from the Hide and Armor, so no further adjustments required.
I want to try HB 11, but with acid, and other I'll use crit tables from RMC.
For acid attacks, you can treat it as an elemental attack (using Heat crits, since acid "burns"). RMC does not have an acid critical table (RM2 had one in one of the companions though).
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Yes, for acid table you're right. I've got old RM Companions and I'll use acid table, and Vacuum for Vacuum spell.
I want use RMC crit table because: the tables from HB11 are equal to RMX and with the tables from RMC: more possibilities.
For weapons, I can wait until new HB ;)
For spells like fire wall, to scaling : Tiny= A
Small= B
Medium= C
Large= D
Huge= E
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Possible typos I found so far in HB11:
a) The Bastard Sword is doing only Medium damage when used two-handed. This seems strange given the fact that the Claymore and Katana - also weapons that can be wielded one-handed or two-handed - are doing Large damage and all weapons were doing Large damage in the core rules, when used 2-handed.
b) The Flail is listed to use the attack table for 1-handed edged weapons. This is strange as it is a two-handed concussion weapon in the core rules. I assume it should be using the two-handed weapons table instead.
c) The Scimitar is listed to do Small damage. I think it should be Medium damage as in the core rules.
d) The Spear is listed to do Large damage when used one-handed and Medium damage when used two-handed. I assume it should be the other way around, which would also better match the core rules.
Rasyr, can you confirm that these are typos and things should instead be handled as I mentioned above? Or am I wrong in some or all cases?
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Picky... yeah, they are most likely typos... ;D
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Well, I just picked up #11 and I have to say I'm very happy with it. But one thing I am curious about is the DB mods. I'm wonder what the rationale is. Do Rolemaster characters on average have more hits than HARP characters and that's the rationale? I would have thought the tables would work perfectly as is, aside from adjusting stuff in the criticals for the difference in rounds between the two systems.
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One more question I have concerning HB11:
The Frenzy skill in Martial Law states that "The character ignores all damage caps" and "The character receives a +10 bonus to his Adjusted Attack Roll (added to weapon size modifier)". How should that skill be used with HB11? Should the attack have Hugh Attack Size (from the "ignores all damage caps") and a critical would have an additional +10 modifier, with a maximum of +20 (from the +10 to the Adjusted Attack Roll)?
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I would treat Frenzy as double hit damage from the attack tables, and +10 to any critical rolls. No mods to OB, though
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OK, thanks
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kinda sorta -- in the normal combat system for HARP, heavier armors protect more from damage, and have a higher DB rating.
In RM, there are 20 DB rating (though on the normal attack tables, the protection value is not a linear gradient).
On these, there are 6 columns. each of the six already take into account some of "heavier armor protects better", so the full DB bonus from HARP is not required. However, I also felt that with the Armor By The Piece system that HARP uses, some items will still provide a DB bonus to the character.
The column used for attacks on your character is based upon the armor worn on his torso, the largest part of his bonus. And since the largest portion of your body is now determining the attack column being used, it would not be right to allow the full DB bonus. So I subtracted a value equal to a shirt & helm, the two most commonly worn items (and worked out to be half of the DB of a full set).
In short, the DB adjustments are because the tables themselves provide a damage adjustment based on the armor worn, and the DB adjustment works to balance than back to closer to its original values.
Why not subtract the full suite DB instead? If the column is determined by the armor worn on the torso, there are 3 possibilities:
1. The character is wearing a full suite of this armor type. The column would match exactly, with 0 DB from armor.
2. The character has additional armor by the piece, which gives some better protection than the armor worn on the torso. He will, in many cases, end up with a positive armor DB, using the column for the weaker armor. The positive armor DB will compensate for the possible higher damage. In this case I would treat a negative armor DB as 0.
3. The character has additional armor by the piece with a weaker protection than his torso armor or no additional armor at all. He will, in most cases, end up with a negative armor DB, thus compensating for the lesser damage from the column for the better armor. In this case I would apply the negative armor DB because of the better armor column.
Wouldn't this be more logical?
Andreas.
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One more question concerning the changes in HB11:
The Blade Barrier Weapon Style normally allows the character to add his Strength bonus to the weapon's size modifier before applying it to the critical. How would that work with the rules and Attack Tables in HB?
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One more question concerning the changes in HB11:
The Blade Barrier Weapon Style normally allows the character to add his Strength bonus to the weapon's size modifier before applying it to the critical. How would that work with the rules and Attack Tables in HB?
Add Str bonus to crit roll
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OK, thanks